Very hard to start when warm all of a sudden.
03-23-2016, 08:51 AM
#41
Tech Contributor
I installed the CA only evap system on my Harley to take care of the raw fuel smell after a ride. Believe it or not 49 state Harleys still have the fuel tank vented to atmosphere in 2016... and after a ride the engine heats the tank and causes fuel vapor to escape the vent and the garage smells like a model T is parked there, raw fuel. Based on my research into these evap systems as part of that project, I can't see how this would cause a hot start problem - the evap system is just a way to get the gas vapors stored in the charcoal canister into the intake to be burned when the engine is running (if you don't pull via vacuum and burn off the HC in the charcoal canister every so often the canister will get full and not store any more HC). Even if the evap was plumbed direct into the intake at all times with no electric valve, (as it is on a fuel injected harley) I cannot see those minor fuel vapors causing a starting issue.
BUT, I'm certainly not omniscient and it did evidently fix BADAV's similar problem so I'm interested to see if this has any effect. You could just unhook the evap vacuum supply on the left side of the intake (or wherever it is on a Maggie) and cap the intake port and see what happens (besides the code it will set).
As I type this, I realize the OP's evap system will need to be different and have a one way valve installed to keep boost from filling the evap canister... I'm not familiar with the maggie systems to tell him where the evap hooks up but you can trace the plastic lines on the left side of the firewall to see where it hooks up.
03-23-2016, 02:40 PM
#43
03-24-2016, 12:28 AM
#44
Drifting
Thread Starter
I really appreciate all the input and help fellas.
Found a few things out today that should help.
1: I hooked up my laptop finally and scanned my car. There is an "incomplete" for Evap system. Everything else is complete. No recent battery disconnects or anything.
2: my mechanic told me to check scanner when I start the car for RPM to see is Crank position sensor is an issue. Cold start it hit 1100 RPM then dropped to 750. Shut down and restart again was around 1000 then drops. Let car idle in driveway for 15-20 minutes. Shut it down for 15 minutes. Wouldn't start as usual first attempt. turn off right away and retry which always seems to work. Started car, it showed 150-400. My mechanic said that was good and normal to be 400-500 on warm restart. He doesnt think its that now.
I had already ordered the Evap module since its only $35 and easy to swap. Will get it tomorrow and see if it helps.
Found a few things out today that should help.
1: I hooked up my laptop finally and scanned my car. There is an "incomplete" for Evap system. Everything else is complete. No recent battery disconnects or anything.
2: my mechanic told me to check scanner when I start the car for RPM to see is Crank position sensor is an issue. Cold start it hit 1100 RPM then dropped to 750. Shut down and restart again was around 1000 then drops. Let car idle in driveway for 15-20 minutes. Shut it down for 15 minutes. Wouldn't start as usual first attempt. turn off right away and retry which always seems to work. Started car, it showed 150-400. My mechanic said that was good and normal to be 400-500 on warm restart. He doesnt think its that now.
I had already ordered the Evap module since its only $35 and easy to swap. Will get it tomorrow and see if it helps.
Last edited by dllhg; 03-24-2016 at 01:32 AM.
03-24-2016, 06:28 AM
#45
Race Director
The EVAP incomplete status is normal since you recently disconnected the battery. I takes a while (several driving trips) for the cycle to complete and come back to ready status.
03-24-2016, 02:23 PM
#46
Drifting
Thread Starter
03-25-2016, 08:12 AM
#47
Race Director
03-25-2016, 04:58 PM
#48
Drifting
Thread Starter
Well problem continues .. New Evap and still hard to crank. Now I hear a ticking almost like fuel injector noise but it is coming from the passenger side and when I put hand on the new Evap I can feel it. Might have been there before and I didnt notice im not sure. Unless the Evap opens and closes making noise like that and the other one was broken.
03-25-2016, 04:59 PM
#49
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St. Jude Donor '15
If it makes you feel any better I'm having the same problem. Mine is weird.. cold it starts fine, turn it off hot and start it right back up and it's fine. Let it sit for about 30 minutes and it barellllly starts, spins at like 100-200 RPM's and finally eventually works its way up. A few times lately it's done the 100-200RPM thing then cut off. After cranking a bit the second time it finally started but still was slow to get going.
I'm going to try to get a log of it happening in a bit to try to see if it's rich or lean when this happens.
I'll let you know if I figure it out.
Between this and the normal LS lifter ticking sounds my gf thinks my car is about to explode.
I'm going to try to get a log of it happening in a bit to try to see if it's rich or lean when this happens.
I'll let you know if I figure it out.
Between this and the normal LS lifter ticking sounds my gf thinks my car is about to explode.
Last edited by schpenxel; 03-25-2016 at 05:03 PM.
03-26-2016, 02:15 AM
#50
Drifting
Thread Starter
If it makes you feel any better I'm having the same problem. Mine is weird.. cold it starts fine, turn it off hot and start it right back up and it's fine. Let it sit for about 30 minutes and it barellllly starts, spins at like 100-200 RPM's and finally eventually works its way up. A few times lately it's done the 100-200RPM thing then cut off. After cranking a bit the second time it finally started but still was slow to get going.
I'm going to try to get a log of it happening in a bit to try to see if it's rich or lean when this happens.
I'll let you know if I figure it out.
Between this and the normal LS lifter ticking sounds my gf thinks my car is about to explode.
I'm going to try to get a log of it happening in a bit to try to see if it's rich or lean when this happens.
I'll let you know if I figure it out.
Between this and the normal LS lifter ticking sounds my gf thinks my car is about to explode.
I keep going back to possible fuel pump despite it showing good pressure most of the time. On the hard restarts it does show only like 40 PSI and slowly creeps back up to 55. Cold start it goes right to 55-60. Tired pump perhaps. Was really hoping that wasn't it though. Some people have had issues with wiring to fuel pump relay overheating I know. I haven't really checked that yet.
Last edited by dllhg; 03-26-2016 at 02:15 AM.
03-26-2016, 03:38 PM
#52
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Location: Raleigh, NC
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St. Jude Donor '15
What injectors are you running?
03-26-2016, 03:52 PM
#53
Tech Contributor
This is a very good question....
I tried and tried to fix this problem with my buddy's 05 with a similar build as mine. Only difference was I have stock injectors, he had something else maybe Ford green top, I don't recall at the moment. In any case his tuner had to scale his injectors. We never got it, he ended up just getting used to it. With his if you pressed the gas a little it would start. We never messed with the injector scaling.
I'm wondering if something isn't getting scaled properly in the tune with regard to start up parameters. It's been a while since I did a tune with scaled injectors so the tables are not fresh in my mind.
Schpenxel is there a table for startup that would not be properly set if injectors are scaled?
I tried and tried to fix this problem with my buddy's 05 with a similar build as mine. Only difference was I have stock injectors, he had something else maybe Ford green top, I don't recall at the moment. In any case his tuner had to scale his injectors. We never got it, he ended up just getting used to it. With his if you pressed the gas a little it would start. We never messed with the injector scaling.
I'm wondering if something isn't getting scaled properly in the tune with regard to start up parameters. It's been a while since I did a tune with scaled injectors so the tables are not fresh in my mind.
Schpenxel is there a table for startup that would not be properly set if injectors are scaled?
03-26-2016, 04:36 PM
#54
Drifting
Thread Starter
They are Green tops, not sure exactly what ones. They came with Maggie 112 kit, my LS2 GTO has same ones. Tune was fine. Car didnt have this problem until the last 1-2K miles. Same weather as when I got the car and it never did this. I would think leaking injector would also cause rougher idle especially when idling at lights like I am experiencing. Under power it all goes away.
03-26-2016, 04:47 PM
#55
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Location: Raleigh, NC
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St. Jude Donor '15
This is a very good question....
I tried and tried to fix this problem with my buddy's 05 with a similar build as mine. Only difference was I have stock injectors, he had something else maybe Ford green top, I don't recall at the moment. In any case his tuner had to scale his injectors. We never got it, he ended up just getting used to it. With his if you pressed the gas a little it would start. We never messed with the injector scaling.
I'm wondering if something isn't getting scaled properly in the tune with regard to start up parameters. It's been a while since I did a tune with scaled injectors so the tables are not fresh in my mind.
Schpenxel is there a table for startup that would not be properly set if injectors are scaled?
I tried and tried to fix this problem with my buddy's 05 with a similar build as mine. Only difference was I have stock injectors, he had something else maybe Ford green top, I don't recall at the moment. In any case his tuner had to scale his injectors. We never got it, he ended up just getting used to it. With his if you pressed the gas a little it would start. We never messed with the injector scaling.
I'm wondering if something isn't getting scaled properly in the tune with regard to start up parameters. It's been a while since I did a tune with scaled injectors so the tables are not fresh in my mind.
Schpenxel is there a table for startup that would not be properly set if injectors are scaled?
The min airflow table might also be worth playing with. It helps control how far the throttle blade can close.. so if giving it a little gas tends to help that table might be something to play with too
Last edited by schpenxel; 03-26-2016 at 04:49 PM.
03-26-2016, 04:55 PM
#56
Drifting
Thread Starter
Mine giving gas doesnt help at all. For mine I know the tune was good so there must be something else mechanically wrong with it. I'm going to test for leaking injectors next. Best was to test is to remove fuel rail with everything still connected , place over paper towels then pressurize system. Will show them selves easily. Another method I read about was after pressurizing system to pull spark plugs one at a time and look for fuel.
03-26-2016, 04:55 PM
#57
Melting Slicks
dllhg
You mentioned that you had low power on a steep incline and lost power while turning slowly. I would try to get a fuel pressure reading at that point, reenacting that same circumstance. This all sounds like poor fuel delivery issues, if not at the tank, the fuel pump has something getting restricted at the pickup side of the pump. Check the fuel lines to make sure there are no crimps restricting flow. Pumps have a check valve that could create issues with initial starting. Let the car sit a while and fuel pressure would drop in the line making restarting a problem, as well as a leaky injector as you mention also.
The old days of cars and fuel pickups, they use a sock strainer in the tank that would collapse and cause real headaches tiring to figure that one out. It wasn't a very common issue, but it can happen.
You stated that fuel pressure reading were low 35-40 lbs. IMO 60 lbs should be the norm all the time. This will certainly cause a lean staring condition.
How was your fuel pump upgraded with the install of FI?
Surprisingly our cars don't have fuel filters, so a dirty injector or dirt restriction can cause issues to.
I assume that you have been experiencing this issue for a while and water in the gas is not a problem?
Well, there are my thoughts and good luck.
You mentioned that you had low power on a steep incline and lost power while turning slowly. I would try to get a fuel pressure reading at that point, reenacting that same circumstance. This all sounds like poor fuel delivery issues, if not at the tank, the fuel pump has something getting restricted at the pickup side of the pump. Check the fuel lines to make sure there are no crimps restricting flow. Pumps have a check valve that could create issues with initial starting. Let the car sit a while and fuel pressure would drop in the line making restarting a problem, as well as a leaky injector as you mention also.
The old days of cars and fuel pickups, they use a sock strainer in the tank that would collapse and cause real headaches tiring to figure that one out. It wasn't a very common issue, but it can happen.
You stated that fuel pressure reading were low 35-40 lbs. IMO 60 lbs should be the norm all the time. This will certainly cause a lean staring condition.
How was your fuel pump upgraded with the install of FI?
Surprisingly our cars don't have fuel filters, so a dirty injector or dirt restriction can cause issues to.
I assume that you have been experiencing this issue for a while and water in the gas is not a problem?
Well, there are my thoughts and good luck.
Last edited by extrapilot; 03-26-2016 at 05:02 PM.
03-26-2016, 05:02 PM
#59
Drifting
Thread Starter
dllhg
You mentioned that you had low power on a steep incline and lost power while turning slowly. I would try to get a fuel pressure reading at that point, reenacting that same circumstance. This all sounds like poor fuel delivery issues, if not at the tank, the fuel pump has something getting restricted at the pickup side of the pump. Check the fuel lines to make sure there are no crimps restricting flow. Pumps have a check valve that could create issues with initial starting. Let the car sit a while and fuel pressure would drop in the line making restarting a problem, as well as a leaky injected as you mention also.
The old days of cars and fuel pickups, they use a sock strainer in the tank that would collapse and cause real headaches tiring to figure that one out. It wasn't a very common issue, but it can happen.
You stated that fuel pressure reading were low 35-40 lbs. IMO 60 lbs should be the norm all the time. This will certainly cause a lean staring condition.
How was your fuel pump upgraded with the install of FI?
Surprisingly our cars don't have fuel filters, so a dirty injector or dirt restriction can cause issues to.
I assume that you have been experiencing this issue for a while and water in the gas is not a problem?
Well, there is my thoughts and good luck.
You mentioned that you had low power on a steep incline and lost power while turning slowly. I would try to get a fuel pressure reading at that point, reenacting that same circumstance. This all sounds like poor fuel delivery issues, if not at the tank, the fuel pump has something getting restricted at the pickup side of the pump. Check the fuel lines to make sure there are no crimps restricting flow. Pumps have a check valve that could create issues with initial starting. Let the car sit a while and fuel pressure would drop in the line making restarting a problem, as well as a leaky injected as you mention also.
The old days of cars and fuel pickups, they use a sock strainer in the tank that would collapse and cause real headaches tiring to figure that one out. It wasn't a very common issue, but it can happen.
You stated that fuel pressure reading were low 35-40 lbs. IMO 60 lbs should be the norm all the time. This will certainly cause a lean staring condition.
How was your fuel pump upgraded with the install of FI?
Surprisingly our cars don't have fuel filters, so a dirty injector or dirt restriction can cause issues to.
I assume that you have been experiencing this issue for a while and water in the gas is not a problem?
Well, there is my thoughts and good luck.
Yeah its been months. Shouldnt be any water in there. Pretty sure its stock fuel pump and has Magnavolt boost a pump. Pressure is 55-60 on startup cold and once driving around even after a hard start.
Cant get fuel system to turn on my simply hitting accessory button for some reason. Was hoping to do that and watch fuel pressure gauge. only goes on when car is running though.
03-26-2016, 05:08 PM
#60
Melting Slicks
Are you holding down on the acc button for like 5 secs. I thought that would put it in ignition ON state, but not sure. Or the starter maybe involved to get the fuel pump on.
Last edited by extrapilot; 03-26-2016 at 05:09 PM.