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Old 04-30-2007, 12:35 AM   #121
Notch
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TeddyFreddy View Post

Average driver + Hardcore good car => Subjective impression: "Car is bad!"

Good driver + Hardcore good car => Subjective impression: "Car is good!"
Where is that written? I hope you don't consider those blanket statements.

I've heard average drivers, when given the opportunity to drive a hardcore sports car, respond that it handled great. And I have had guys that I consider to be really good drivers tell me they didn't like the handling of a hardcore sports car.
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Old 04-30-2007, 01:33 AM   #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TeddyFreddy View Post

Average driver + Hardcore good car => Subjective impression: "Car is bad!"

Good driver + Hardcore good car => Subjective impression: "Car is good!"

Everything depends on the final objective. I guess the objective of Z06 is to go very fast not to make average drivers feel good
Never mind that the test driver for the MT comparo is/was a professional race car driver...
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Old 04-30-2007, 02:47 AM   #123
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Wow, let's see...the Z is the most powerful car in the test. It rides on tires that have excellent grip, but zero compliance. The rear roll is quite stiff to get the car rotated quickly... the drivers (excepting Max A.) are more or less at the level of occasional club racers and are not so young anymore. No wonder they needed a change of underwear

Reading this test, I think I'll go out and get Me a Mazda Three. That is, if I took it seriously. But I can't because they use a numeric score system, then ignore it in the final analysis. That is laughable.

Hey, I'm being mean. The test was really nice, because it gave the owners of the other cars at least ONE thing to feel good about regarding their purchase.

The bottom line is, whether objectively (the track), or subjectively (street demeanor), the Z06, as well as "regular" C5s and C6s are oustanding vehicles. Their only weakness is the OEM tires.
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Old 04-30-2007, 03:38 AM   #124
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Default Sooo missing the point.

Well I am not sure anyone is going to read this thread this far but I figure I will throw in my two cents just to clarify something for people who seem to really be missing the point on the one thing that makes a HUGE difference.

I had an old 87 C4 car set up like a solo II car. It was a street car so urethane everywhere not aluminum bushings. ZR1 wheels and tires, upsized anti-roll bars 4 pt cage all the goodies for the suspension and brakes. With the 330hp motor I used for smog this car was an absolute ball to drive. I would pitch it into drifts in the middle of corners I could induce understeer or oversteer at will. I owned the handling of this car, right up to it's top speed it felt like sitting on my living room sofa. I spent 3 months destroying every M3 that kept trying to race me after the last "best handling car on earth" article that the M3 won. They just didn't get that their car was still slower. Then I made one change.

I put on a ATI Procharger running at 12psi. All the sudden I had 150hp more. You are all talking about running the cars with the same tires, well here I had:

Same car
Same tires
Same suspension
Same engine
Same driver
Same roads
Same steering
Same brakes
WAY more power

The car became scary evil to drive, an extra 1/4 inch of pedal travel and the back end would come around. It would spin the tires in third gear on the freeway if I jumped on it. Rain was out. I was going through corners at such a higher speed the steering felt totally different. For about a week I was not amused, after a month I was enjoying myself, after 3 months I was looking for more power and was totally comfortable with the car.

So you have a bunch of guys, and I am sorry 'Mad' Max Angellelli is still just a guy, that are going from nice safe slow cars, GT3 excepted, where the suspension is way more powerful than the engine and they just feel so super spiffy confident and jumping right into a car that requires an immediate recalibration of your every driving reflex to a much finer honed edge. And they found this unnerving?, even the pro driver..wow, big surprise, NOT.

Cars with big power that go really fast are a lot scarier and less confidence inspiring to drive until you totally become acclimated to them. They also whip the *** off slow 'feel good' cars in races. Read the test, the porsche was running street slicks and that ride harshness graph looks like the richter scale from the Kyoto earthquake compared to the vette. And it STILL only won by 1.5 seconds. Fun to drive is one thing, losing cause your slow is another, don't ever confuse the two.

Last edited by Jaxian; 04-30-2007 at 04:43 AM.
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Old 04-30-2007, 08:46 AM   #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris S View Post
Never mind that the test driver for the MT comparo is/was a professional race car driver...
It was not the race car driver deciding the results, it was the 'writers'.
Race car drivers are honest as per my experience. They always respect the objective results, like times, skidpad, etc.
It is the 'writers' that came with their own biased and subjective criteria that screwed the test results. Read this:
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/show...3&postcount=74

These are the real results, calculated from the objective scores, thanks to Raj:

Click the image to open in full size.

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Old 04-30-2007, 08:53 AM   #126
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Default Motor Trend B.S.

You have to wonder how these no-nothing's get these jobs and speak with such authority. Thy probably have never even changed a tire yet they "know-it-all" when it comes to performance automobiles. They're victims of their own bu))$hit. They are notorious for ripping American made cars and kissing up to imports. They are probably French.
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Old 04-30-2007, 08:56 AM   #127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaxian View Post
...
Cars with big power that go really fast are a lot scarier and less confidence inspiring to drive until you totally become acclimated to them.
...

Great writing Jaxian. I totally enjoy it.
Yes, that's the way it works, lots and lots of practice, not just jump from the GT3 into the Z06 and expect to handle the beast (professional driver included!).

Last edited by TeddyFreddy; 04-30-2007 at 09:01 AM.
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Old 04-30-2007, 09:15 AM   #128
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The french auto mag Sport Auto also ranked the Z06 9th out of 10. But the competition there was GT3, the latest Ferrari 599 Fiorano, Pagani Zonda, Lambo, Aston Martin, etc etc. No Honda or Mazda there. And their overall assessment said the Z being a very desirable car with racing heritage. 'nuff said !
All the other were 150k$ plus cars. None I can afford !
Seems a little weird to compare the Z06 to a ragtop with a small four banger. The Lotus, well I had one before and got tired of having to shake it around to get a good experience, in order to compensate the lack of power. The Z is better balanced IMHO.
And most importantly, I can afford a Z whereas the others are overpriced.
GM got it right this time, I think. Good value for money, exceptional performance and style.
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Old 04-30-2007, 09:39 AM   #129
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WHAT DO YOU EXPECT FROM A BUNCH OF P LOVERS and yes i was screaming
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Old 04-30-2007, 10:27 AM   #130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TeddyFreddy View Post

Average driver + Hardcore good car => Subjective impression: "Car is bad!"

Good driver + Hardcore good car => Subjective impression: "Car is good!"

Everything depends on the final objective. I guess the objective of Z06 is to go very fast not to make average drivers feel good
The GT3 is certainly a hardcore car, and subjective praise was unanimous from everyone, including Max the racing driver.
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Old 04-30-2007, 10:36 AM   #131
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Mazda Speed 3, What the...I wonder how much they got paid to say a front engine, FWD economy car is ahead of a Z06 in any performance aspect. That is a flat out joke.
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Old 04-30-2007, 10:45 AM   #132
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Originally Posted by C6USA View Post
Mazda Speed 3, What the...I wonder how much they got paid to say a front engine, FWD economy car is ahead of a Z06 in any performance aspect. That is a flat out joke.
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Old 04-30-2007, 11:47 AM   #133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaxian View Post
Well I am not sure anyone is going to read this thread this far but I figure I will throw in my two cents just to clarify something for people who seem to really be missing the point on the one thing that makes a HUGE difference.

I had an old 87 C4 car set up like a solo II car. It was a street car so urethane everywhere not aluminum bushings. ZR1 wheels and tires, upsized anti-roll bars 4 pt cage all the goodies for the suspension and brakes. With the 330hp motor I used for smog this car was an absolute ball to drive. I would pitch it into drifts in the middle of corners I could induce understeer or oversteer at will. I owned the handling of this car, right up to it's top speed it felt like sitting on my living room sofa. I spent 3 months destroying every M3 that kept trying to race me after the last "best handling car on earth" article that the M3 won. They just didn't get that their car was still slower. Then I made one change.

I put on a ATI Procharger running at 12psi. All the sudden I had 150hp more. You are all talking about running the cars with the same tires, well here I had:

Same car
Same tires
Same suspension
Same engine
Same driver
Same roads
Same steering
Same brakes
WAY more power

The car became scary evil to drive, an extra 1/4 inch of pedal travel and the back end would come around. It would spin the tires in third gear on the freeway if I jumped on it. Rain was out. I was going through corners at such a higher speed the steering felt totally different. For about a week I was not amused, after a month I was enjoying myself, after 3 months I was looking for more power and was totally comfortable with the car.

So you have a bunch of guys, and I am sorry 'Mad' Max Angellelli is still just a guy, that are going from nice safe slow cars, GT3 excepted, where the suspension is way more powerful than the engine and they just feel so super spiffy confident and jumping right into a car that requires an immediate recalibration of your every driving reflex to a much finer honed edge. And they found this unnerving?, even the pro driver..wow, big surprise, NOT.

Cars with big power that go really fast are a lot scarier and less confidence inspiring to drive until you totally become acclimated to them. They also whip the *** off slow 'feel good' cars in races. Read the test, the porsche was running street slicks and that ride harshness graph looks like the richter scale from the Kyoto earthquake compared to the vette. And it STILL only won by 1.5 seconds. Fun to drive is one thing, losing cause your slow is another, don't ever confuse the two.
Great post, Jaxian.
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Old 04-30-2007, 03:39 PM   #134
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Although I have not read this test, I don't think it was based on lap times, speed or lateral g's.

I think a lot if it had to do with feel versus capability. Which is refreshing, because to the average enthusiast, feel will matter more than capability. We are simply not pushing our cars to the limits like a seasoned driver does on the track. Everyone knows the Z06's handling capabilities are way up there on that list. Feel? It's one of the most disappointing things about the C6's in general IMO.
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Old 04-30-2007, 04:10 PM   #135
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What planet is he from........
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Old 04-30-2007, 04:17 PM   #136
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Originally Posted by waltk88 View Post
The GT3 is certainly a hardcore car, and subjective praise was unanimous from everyone, including Max the racing driver.
So what?
Max is a good driver and he praised the GT3. The other drivers also praised the GT3. Obviously the GT3 is good.

My problem is that they didn't follow their own criteria and scores. They tested, wrote the results and then ranked based on other subjective and biased criteria.

GT3 has better handling, I can accept that conclusion from them. But the Z06 is NOT 9 out of 10 in that list. It is 3rd, based on their own test results!
This comparison/test is a big BS. Shame MT!

Last edited by TeddyFreddy; 04-30-2007 at 04:20 PM.
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Old 04-30-2007, 04:31 PM   #137
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I'm callin Shinanagins! for **** sake, how can you expect to get the car to handle its best when over a third of the field is not RWD and has half the HP. This "test" was loaded from the get go. MT doesn't like domestics anyways.

Last edited by VicCaerter; 04-30-2007 at 04:35 PM.
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Old 04-30-2007, 05:25 PM   #138
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Pure BS!
And I'm sure a BMW 3 series handles better then a Z06....Good God!

Ron
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Old 04-30-2007, 09:21 PM   #139
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First off, Motor Trend has never been an automotive magazine for real car enthusiasts. It ranks one step better than Consumer Reports in terms of its relevance to real car guys.

Secondly, as a real car guy with 25 years experience marketing high performance cars at the importer/distributer as well as the retail levels, I must remain objective about my 2006 Zo6.

Yes, the car is incredible and represents the best performance value on the market. Yes, the car is well constructed and full of cutting edge technology. Yes, the car is beautifully styled and entertaining to drive.

However, purely from a handling perspective, the suspension does feel somewhat nervous when compared to the world's best. The steering is unquestionably more vague and less communicative and the rear grip is challenged on uneven surfaces which fail to faze other cars as much.

I have recently owned a Porsche 997 (sold to purchase the Zo6), as well as a MINI Cooper S with limited slip. I have also owned a Lotus Elise and numerous BMW 3 Series. In all honesty, I would place each of these vehicles ahead of my Zo6 in terms of handling. The team at Corvette engineering would love to have the steering feel and handling attributes of some of these cars and would be the first to admit the same.

Incidentally, in case you are wondering, I do know how to drive and have more than 1000 track miles on a C5 Zo6 alone. I returned from the UK on Friday where I was testing a number of the world's most expensive automobiles last week at Prodrive's HQ and facilities. Few cars do everything well and most are heavily compromised in one or more areas. I have driven the Bugatti Veyron and the Lamborghini LP 640 and wouldn't trade either driving experience for my Zo6 in terms of satisfaction, fun and entertainment factor. The same is true for any Aston and most Ferraris. I would however trade for a Porsche GT3 or Lotus Elise if that gives you any insight into my priorities regarding handling and chassis dynamics.

To suggest that smaller, lighter and more dynamically focused mid-engined cars such as the Elise and Cayman handle worse than a Zo6 is about as inaccurate and uninformed as suggesting that they will outperform a Zo6 in a straight line.

The reason I purchased my Zo6 is down to the totality of the car's abilities and its performance on balance rather than in one area alone.
Its relatively simple for an automaker to build a car with more power or less weight or better grip but few companies can build a sports car like the Zo6 that does everything very well and a few things brilliantly.

That said, no other car in production delivers this level of sophistication amd total performance for anywhere near $100K.

My Zo6 offers me one of the very best driving experiences in the world, not because of its top speed, quarter mile times and most certainly not because of its particularly precise handling capability.

Go drive the other cars mentioned, form your own opinions and then come back home to your Zo6. You'll still want your car more than theirs but you might understand a litte better why its better and in which areas.
Do you think the C5Z handles better, worse or about the same as the C6Z?
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Old 04-30-2007, 09:36 PM   #140
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Jaxian, the insight into your own personal experience to illustrate the point about subjectivity was highly illuminating to say the least!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaxian View Post
Read the test, the porsche was running street slicks and that ride harshness graph looks like the richter scale from the Kyoto earthquake compared to the vette. And it STILL only won by 1.5 seconds. Fun to drive is one thing, losing cause your slow is another, don't ever confuse the two.
To add to that, the Z06, in addition to ranking 3rd in two of the quantitative tests and 2nd on the track by a significant margin (~5 seconds over the Exige ), also scored no worse than 6th in any of these categories! None of the top three finishers can claim that dictinction; in fact, the only other car in the entire field to not rank below 6th in any objective category was the EVO IX!

Ultimately, every car is a compromised effort and flawed in one way or another. The Z06 manages to deliver an entirely acceptable ride (something that cannot be said for the fillings-be-damned GT3), with decent on-center steering despite sporting the widest front tires (beats the Cayman and the Exige handily at this), AND scorches the entire field with the exception of one on a highly technical track! BTW, no prizes for guessing which car went the fastest through the legendary corkscrew (if you guessed anything other than the Z06 you'd be wrong). If that doesn't bear the hallmark of an impressive all round supercar I just don't know what does.
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Old 04-30-2007, 09:36 PM
 
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