[Z06] Vortech vs. Procharger
12-23-2007, 03:13 AM
#1
Drifting
Thread Starter
Vortech vs. Procharger
which one would you go for?
Why am I asking this? Because I personally went with the Vortech given it was the only one available as a kit.
Now it was interesting to know that a friend of mine (Mr.algaz) went with the Procharger instead, so that gave us an insight on both systems. They both look the same in your engine bay, however this is what I noticed.
all else equal, the Procharger generates the same amount of power with much less boost. Ive witnessed this, although I did not beleive it when I saw it earlier on Procharger's website, it IS true.
Vortech @6.5 PSI generates equally the same power as a Procharger @ 4.5 PSI. Now if you'd ask me, thats a HUGE difference, and there is some inconsistency in there. Why, where, what, when and how?
This proves Procharger's claim of ~ 575 RWHP @ 4.5PSI, with Vortech's claim of 575RWHP at 6.5PSI.
Tell me what am I missing, because as I am aware of, boost is measured at the intake manifold, and logically if you got more boost = more air going into your engine = you got more power etc...
Please dont tell me that the Vortech generates more low-end power, as opposed to the PC generating higher reading numbers, both start boosting from ~3700 RPMs.
Why am I asking this? Because I personally went with the Vortech given it was the only one available as a kit.
Now it was interesting to know that a friend of mine (Mr.algaz) went with the Procharger instead, so that gave us an insight on both systems. They both look the same in your engine bay, however this is what I noticed.
all else equal, the Procharger generates the same amount of power with much less boost. Ive witnessed this, although I did not beleive it when I saw it earlier on Procharger's website, it IS true.
Vortech @6.5 PSI generates equally the same power as a Procharger @ 4.5 PSI. Now if you'd ask me, thats a HUGE difference, and there is some inconsistency in there. Why, where, what, when and how?
This proves Procharger's claim of ~ 575 RWHP @ 4.5PSI, with Vortech's claim of 575RWHP at 6.5PSI.
Tell me what am I missing, because as I am aware of, boost is measured at the intake manifold, and logically if you got more boost = more air going into your engine = you got more power etc...
Please dont tell me that the Vortech generates more low-end power, as opposed to the PC generating higher reading numbers, both start boosting from ~3700 RPMs.
12-23-2007, 03:18 AM
#2
Drifting
I dont know enough to comment decisively.
I believe the vortech system uses a roots type blower.
Roots type blowers do rob a lot of power, and heat up the air a lot.
Heat will pull timing and reduce power - as well as reduce boost.
Parasitic loss through the belt will also result in reduced RWHP.
You may be losing power to these two things.
This is just an educated guess, I'd love to find the real answer!
I believe the vortech system uses a roots type blower.
Roots type blowers do rob a lot of power, and heat up the air a lot.
Heat will pull timing and reduce power - as well as reduce boost.
Parasitic loss through the belt will also result in reduced RWHP.
You may be losing power to these two things.
This is just an educated guess, I'd love to find the real answer!
12-23-2007, 03:20 AM
#3
Racer
Member Since: Aug 2004
Posts: 466
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It's just a guess but I think it has to do with the sc's volumetric efficiency. Procharger's may run cooler as well. Cooler air going in will produce more power with a lower boost. Do both incorporate an intercooler?
12-23-2007, 03:23 AM
#4
Racer
Member Since: Aug 2004
Posts: 466
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I dont know enough to comment decisively.
I believe the vortech system uses a roots type blower.
Roots type blowers do rob a lot of power, and heat up the air a lot.
Heat will pull timing and reduce power - as well as reduce boost.
Parasitic loss through the belt will also result in reduced RWHP.
You may be losing power to these two things.
This is just an educated guess, I'd love to find the real answer!
I believe the vortech system uses a roots type blower.
Roots type blowers do rob a lot of power, and heat up the air a lot.
Heat will pull timing and reduce power - as well as reduce boost.
Parasitic loss through the belt will also result in reduced RWHP.
You may be losing power to these two things.
This is just an educated guess, I'd love to find the real answer!
12-23-2007, 03:39 AM
#5
Drifting
Thread Starter
No, both are centrifugal superchargers. It's has to be the design differences. Prochargers have always produced insane power with minimal boost in relation to many roots style blowers and other centrifugal style blowers. It has shown with the newer GTO's on the LS1's and LS2 motors.
12-23-2007, 03:53 AM
#6
Burning Brakes
Adiabatic Efficiency.
Been a lot of back and forth between the companies but Procharger always maintained they had the highest aidiabatic efficiency of any centrigual. Meaning same volume of air at a lower pressure. This isn't actually true as the Rotrex are even more efficient, actually equaling some turbos, which is stunning. Of course there aren't any Rotrex kits, they aren't made in the US so for us here that means they are stunningly expensive compared to the alternatives. Last I looked the dual Rotrex kit for the F430 was running about 44,500 dollars.
I saw Wheel to wheel put a dual setup in that sleeper nova of theirs and make 1100hp, but to say there was some custom installation work would be the understatement of the century.
Just to throw in a curve ball I have heard that the NOVI Paxtons are on par or better than the Prochargers but that's just anecdotal at this point. Haven't seen a back to back comparison of two similar units. Usually they upgrade a smaller Procharger or Vortech to the NOVI and pick up power, which you would expect. Maybe the guys from ECS can chime in as they use all three head units from what I understand depending on customer preference.
The efficiency would be affected by the design of the impellor, the shape of the blades, the shape of the scroll housing, the efficiency of the drive unit, etc. You could have two that look exactly the same on the outside but have completely different drive ratios and impellors on the inside resulting in a huge efficiency difference.
I saw Wheel to wheel put a dual setup in that sleeper nova of theirs and make 1100hp, but to say there was some custom installation work would be the understatement of the century.
Just to throw in a curve ball I have heard that the NOVI Paxtons are on par or better than the Prochargers but that's just anecdotal at this point. Haven't seen a back to back comparison of two similar units. Usually they upgrade a smaller Procharger or Vortech to the NOVI and pick up power, which you would expect. Maybe the guys from ECS can chime in as they use all three head units from what I understand depending on customer preference.
The efficiency would be affected by the design of the impellor, the shape of the blades, the shape of the scroll housing, the efficiency of the drive unit, etc. You could have two that look exactly the same on the outside but have completely different drive ratios and impellors on the inside resulting in a huge efficiency difference.
Last edited by Jaxian; 12-23-2007 at 03:56 AM.
12-23-2007, 04:54 AM
#7
Drifting
Thread Starter
Been a lot of back and forth between the companies but Procharger always maintained they had the highest aidiabatic efficiency of any centrigual. Meaning same volume of air at a lower pressure. This isn't actually true as the Rotrex are even more efficient, actually equaling some turbos, which is stunning. Of course there aren't any Rotrex kits, they aren't made in the US so for us here that means they are stunningly expensive compared to the alternatives. Last I looked the dual Rotrex kit for the F430 was running about 44,500 dollars.
I saw Wheel to wheel put a dual setup in that sleeper nova of theirs and make 1100hp, but to say there was some custom installation work would be the understatement of the century.
Just to throw in a curve ball I have heard that the NOVI Paxtons are on par or better than the Prochargers but that's just anecdotal at this point. Haven't seen a back to back comparison of two similar units. Usually they upgrade a smaller Procharger or Vortech to the NOVI and pick up power, which you would expect. Maybe the guys from ECS can chime in as they use all three head units from what I understand depending on customer preference.
The efficiency would be affected by the design of the impellor, the shape of the blades, the shape of the scroll housing, the efficiency of the drive unit, etc. You could have two that look exactly the same on the outside but have completely different drive ratios and impellors on the inside resulting in a huge efficiency difference.
I saw Wheel to wheel put a dual setup in that sleeper nova of theirs and make 1100hp, but to say there was some custom installation work would be the understatement of the century.
Just to throw in a curve ball I have heard that the NOVI Paxtons are on par or better than the Prochargers but that's just anecdotal at this point. Haven't seen a back to back comparison of two similar units. Usually they upgrade a smaller Procharger or Vortech to the NOVI and pick up power, which you would expect. Maybe the guys from ECS can chime in as they use all three head units from what I understand depending on customer preference.
The efficiency would be affected by the design of the impellor, the shape of the blades, the shape of the scroll housing, the efficiency of the drive unit, etc. You could have two that look exactly the same on the outside but have completely different drive ratios and impellors on the inside resulting in a huge efficiency difference.
ok now hold the vaccum end of a boost gauge, and blow though it. You will notice that the more air you blow, the higher the gauge reads, what am I trying to say? More boost means MORE air is going into the engine, accopmanied with more fuel the car should generate higher horsepower reading.
ok two vehicles, both are meauring boost through the intake manifold, one reads 6PSI and the other reads 4PSI, which one has more air to enter the engine? JUST answer this question, im sure it will be enough. Now if one has a significantly cooler intake charge, better intercooling, better weather etc... you might end up saying, that the 4PSI reading vehicle has denser air entering the engine, yet still that difference would like never be enough to justify a 2PSI difference.
Last edited by ayousef; 12-23-2007 at 04:58 AM.
12-23-2007, 06:49 AM
#8
Burning Brakes
I did alot of research before installing the F1 ProCharger on my '99 SS Camaro. It was an LS2 built 408. The ProCharger, from what I gathered of almost 6 months of research, always produced more power at a given boost level. Not 'exactly' sure why but IMHO they are a more efficient set up for the street. I know the intercooling seems to be better (even better with an aftermarket FMIC) along with the head unit itself incorproating a better step up ratio, self lubricating and more effcient internals.
Pulled from they're web site...
Unmatched Technology
Thanks to relentless innovation, ProCharger technology is generations ahead of the competition. Our exclusive, patented, self-contained, gear-driven superchargers eliminate tapping into your oil pan, run cooler and produce more power than any of our competitor’s products. Our impellers are created with aircraft grade 7075 T-6 aluminum alloy for tremendous strength and performance. The top tier material used in the construction of every ProCharger billet impeller and compressor housing allows us to use higher step up ratios than the competition. This in turn allows increased boost levels and superior overall performance than other offerings on the market. Because of this unwavering commitment to excellence, ProCharger is the only manufacturer of self-contained superchargers offering a 3-year warranty to ensure years of trouble free performance.
Intercooled Supercharging
ProCharger pioneered intercooled supercharging years before others and still offers the most effective, reliable and highest flowing intercoolers. These deliver the lowest charge air temperature available for maximum engine longevity and efficiency, with zero maintenance. We also offer the broadest range of intercoolers of any supercharger manufacturer. This ensures the right product for your power level and type of use.
http://videos.streetfire.net/video/7...bdfb121c15.htm
On pump gas my SS, a true street car maintaining A/C and all made 880 RWHP blowing through a Spec 5 clutch on the Dyno. After installing a triple Disc Textralia and a 150 shot it was well over 1000 RWHP...
Pulled from they're web site...
Unmatched Technology
Thanks to relentless innovation, ProCharger technology is generations ahead of the competition. Our exclusive, patented, self-contained, gear-driven superchargers eliminate tapping into your oil pan, run cooler and produce more power than any of our competitor’s products. Our impellers are created with aircraft grade 7075 T-6 aluminum alloy for tremendous strength and performance. The top tier material used in the construction of every ProCharger billet impeller and compressor housing allows us to use higher step up ratios than the competition. This in turn allows increased boost levels and superior overall performance than other offerings on the market. Because of this unwavering commitment to excellence, ProCharger is the only manufacturer of self-contained superchargers offering a 3-year warranty to ensure years of trouble free performance.
Intercooled Supercharging
ProCharger pioneered intercooled supercharging years before others and still offers the most effective, reliable and highest flowing intercoolers. These deliver the lowest charge air temperature available for maximum engine longevity and efficiency, with zero maintenance. We also offer the broadest range of intercoolers of any supercharger manufacturer. This ensures the right product for your power level and type of use.
http://videos.streetfire.net/video/7...bdfb121c15.htm
On pump gas my SS, a true street car maintaining A/C and all made 880 RWHP blowing through a Spec 5 clutch on the Dyno. After installing a triple Disc Textralia and a 150 shot it was well over 1000 RWHP...
12-23-2007, 08:51 AM
#11
Burning Brakes
ayousef I cant figure out how to post my dyno but anyways ill tell you what my boost is doing, it definitely kicks in before 3,700.
RPM BOOST
2k .75lbs
3k 1.5 lbs
4k 2.5lbs
5k 3.5 lbs
6k 4.75 lbs
7k 6.2 lbs
My baseline on a mustang dyno was 320rwhp 325 tq, now its 450 rwhp and 425 tq....obviously these numbers arent right but you can still tell the vortech added a good 130rwhp
Its very progressive and smooth, as a result im getting the power to the ground nicely, im very pleased with the Vortech system, but im sure the procharger is awesome too.
RPM BOOST
2k .75lbs
3k 1.5 lbs
4k 2.5lbs
5k 3.5 lbs
6k 4.75 lbs
7k 6.2 lbs
My baseline on a mustang dyno was 320rwhp 325 tq, now its 450 rwhp and 425 tq....obviously these numbers arent right but you can still tell the vortech added a good 130rwhp
Its very progressive and smooth, as a result im getting the power to the ground nicely, im very pleased with the Vortech system, but im sure the procharger is awesome too.
Last edited by jrubicon; 12-23-2007 at 08:56 AM.
12-23-2007, 09:27 AM
#12
Drifting
Thread Starter
ayousef I cant figure out how to post my dyno but anyways ill tell you what my boost is doing, it definitely kicks in before 3,700.
RPM BOOST
2k .75lbs
3k 1.5 lbs
4k 2.5lbs
5k 3.5 lbs
6k 4.75 lbs
7k 6.2 lbs
My baseline on a mustang dyno was 320rwhp 325 tq, now its 450 rwhp and 425 tq....obviously these numbers arent right but you can still tell the vortech added a good 130rwhp
Its very progressive and smooth, as a result im getting the power to the ground nicely, im very pleased with the Vortech system, but im sure the procharger is awesome too.
RPM BOOST
2k .75lbs
3k 1.5 lbs
4k 2.5lbs
5k 3.5 lbs
6k 4.75 lbs
7k 6.2 lbs
My baseline on a mustang dyno was 320rwhp 325 tq, now its 450 rwhp and 425 tq....obviously these numbers arent right but you can still tell the vortech added a good 130rwhp
Its very progressive and smooth, as a result im getting the power to the ground nicely, im very pleased with the Vortech system, but im sure the procharger is awesome too.
I don't know if a bad tune could also rob you away of boost, if so then i sure am loosing a good deal of power!!
is your supercharger the T-trim or smaller S-trim?
12-23-2007, 09:29 AM
#13
Melting Slicks
The difference could be in the intercooler. There could be efficiency differences in the intercooler. What are the IATs of the Vortech at 6.5 psi and the IATs of the Procharger at 4.5 psi? They might tell us the story. What are the size differences between the 2 intercoolers?
The Procharger makes a staggering amount of power at very low boost pressures. But it also has a REALLY big intercooler that blocks air to the radiator too. Too bad we could not get the efficiency maps for the Procharger.....they do exist for the Vortech. But if you are willing to measure IATs, I am willing to bet the answer is there. I am willing to bet the Procharger Intercooler does a better job. But it also may be more of an obstruction of air flow to the radiator. No free lunch..
Here is what I think would be a trick setup. Remove the FMIC, and run meth injection. No airflow blockage to radiator and I think you will actually make more power. Centrifugals are light (20 lbs) so not a huge weight imact either. Best of all, say goodbye to heat issues and gaseaous intercooling has way better efficiency than any FMIC.
Regardless of all of this, I like the Vortech setup and think it makes more than enough power for the stock LS7. Ayousef, you need a smaller pulley I think.
Too bad they don't make a Rotrex setup for the Corvette.
The Procharger makes a staggering amount of power at very low boost pressures. But it also has a REALLY big intercooler that blocks air to the radiator too. Too bad we could not get the efficiency maps for the Procharger.....they do exist for the Vortech. But if you are willing to measure IATs, I am willing to bet the answer is there. I am willing to bet the Procharger Intercooler does a better job. But it also may be more of an obstruction of air flow to the radiator. No free lunch..
Here is what I think would be a trick setup. Remove the FMIC, and run meth injection. No airflow blockage to radiator and I think you will actually make more power. Centrifugals are light (20 lbs) so not a huge weight imact either. Best of all, say goodbye to heat issues and gaseaous intercooling has way better efficiency than any FMIC.
Regardless of all of this, I like the Vortech setup and think it makes more than enough power for the stock LS7. Ayousef, you need a smaller pulley I think.
Too bad they don't make a Rotrex setup for the Corvette.
Last edited by WeaponsGradeTorque; 12-23-2007 at 09:35 AM.
12-23-2007, 09:36 AM
#14
Drifting
Thread Starter
The difference could be in the intercooler. There could be efficiency differences in the intercooler. What are the IATs of the Vortech at 6.5 psi and the IATs of the Procharger at 4.5 psi? They might tell us the story. What are the size differences between the 2 intercoolers?
The Procharger makes a staggering amount of power at very low boost pressures. But it also has a REALLY big intercooler that blocks air to the radiator too. Too bad we could not get the efficiency maps for the Procharger.....they do exist for the Vortech. But if you are willing to measure IATs, I am willing to bet the answer is there. I am willing to bet the Procharger Intercooler does a better job. But it also may be more of an obstruction of air flow to the radiator. No free lunch..
Here is what I think would be a trick setup. Remove the FMIC, and run meth injection. No airflow blockage to radiator and I think you will actually make more power. Centrifugals are light (20 lbs) so not a huge weight imact either. Best of all, say goodbye to heat issues and gaseaous intercooling has way better efficiency than any FMIC.
Too bad they don't make a Rotrex setup for the Corvette...
The Procharger makes a staggering amount of power at very low boost pressures. But it also has a REALLY big intercooler that blocks air to the radiator too. Too bad we could not get the efficiency maps for the Procharger.....they do exist for the Vortech. But if you are willing to measure IATs, I am willing to bet the answer is there. I am willing to bet the Procharger Intercooler does a better job. But it also may be more of an obstruction of air flow to the radiator. No free lunch..
Here is what I think would be a trick setup. Remove the FMIC, and run meth injection. No airflow blockage to radiator and I think you will actually make more power. Centrifugals are light (20 lbs) so not a huge weight imact either. Best of all, say goodbye to heat issues and gaseaous intercooling has way better efficiency than any FMIC.
Too bad they don't make a Rotrex setup for the Corvette...
Thanks for the explanation, Ill have to take a look at the PC's intercooler and compare to the Vortech's Ill get photos of my car and my friends Procharged Z06 to compare and contrast, I should post them online as well.
In my case, I got the engine oil cooler blocking half of the intercooler as well, did figure out another place to put the oil cooler at. My friend is also having some heating issues, I don't know if you're right about the intercooler blocking much of the radiator, but well find out soon after he sorts out his tune and fixes the radiator fans etc...
12-23-2007, 09:43 AM
#15
Burning Brakes
You know its funny, I don't start seeing boost before 4000 RPM, which is where I notice the 1PSI which goes all the way up to 4.9PSI at max revs, thats because im using catless headers. Im wondering what could be my problem really
I don't know if a bad tune could also rob you away of boost, if so then i sure am loosing a good deal of power!!
is your supercharger the T-trim or smaller S-trim?
I don't know if a bad tune could also rob you away of boost, if so then i sure am loosing a good deal of power!!
is your supercharger the T-trim or smaller S-trim?
ayousef I have the V-2 SQ T-trim
12-23-2007, 09:49 AM
#16
Melting Slicks
Thanks for the explanation, Ill have to take a look at the PC's intercooler and compare to the Vortech's Ill get photos of my car and my friends Procharged Z06 to compare and contrast, I should post them online as well.
In my case, I got the engine oil cooler blocking half of the intercooler as well, did figure out another place to put the oil cooler at. My friend is also having some heating issues, I don't know if you're right about the intercooler blocking much of the radiator, but well find out soon after he sorts out his tune and fixes the radiator fans etc...
In my case, I got the engine oil cooler blocking half of the intercooler as well, did figure out another place to put the oil cooler at. My friend is also having some heating issues, I don't know if you're right about the intercooler blocking much of the radiator, but well find out soon after he sorts out his tune and fixes the radiator fans etc...
Turn your fans on earlier in the tune, and that will help. But the FMIC poses a big challenge to our stock radiators. The radiator needs airflow. There are 3 big heat exchangers sandwiched up front. It's not bad for normal driving, but hard driving will cause big increases in coolant temp. Meth would most likely solve everything, but I some people don't like the idea. But I would love to know what IATs you are seeing with your Vortech.
I wouldnt do it unless its last resort
12-23-2007, 10:46 AM
#18
Melting Slicks
Big Mouth just made an Air-Dam for the SC'd C6 Z06 that forces air onto the radiator. I am getting the prototype very shortly. It worked well on C5's.
12-23-2007, 10:49 AM
#19
Burning Brakes
Which kit are they using? Not an easy thing to do, but when done right it can be good. And can can be done safely too by tuning off the IAT sensor. Not for everyone, though....that is for sure.
Big Mouth just made an Air-Dam for the SC'd C6 Z06 that forces air onto the radiator. I am getting the prototype very shortly. It worked well on C5's.
Big Mouth just made an Air-Dam for the SC'd C6 Z06 that forces air onto the radiator. I am getting the prototype very shortly. It worked well on C5's.
Is the bigmouth air dam for overheating? I havent had any trouble so far.
What temps are you guys seeing?
12-23-2007, 11:22 AM
#20
Melting Slicks
It depends on ambiant as to what temps coolant temps I see. In 70 to 80 degree weather, I see 185 to 195 at highway cruising. This is normal. If I get on it hard for a WOT pull, they can climb up to 210. Still no too bad for street use. Only problem I see is hard road racing. Then the air dam or some other means of additional intercooling would need to happen. If not racing, no worries.
Last edited by WeaponsGradeTorque; 12-23-2007 at 11:24 AM.