[Z06] APR Splitter vs LG Splitter
01-08-2011, 07:42 PM
#61
Burning Brakes
I've spent some time working with fluid dynamics......and still can't accurately gauge what's going to happen with every, seemingly minute change. I'm surprised all the time by the testing that ultimately proves me wrong. And the lessons that I learn, only apply later on, to an identical set of circumstances! My testing does not include wind tunnels, but does involve carefully considered alternatives. I guess what I'm trying to say, is that it's the only area that I tinker in, (other than the women in my life) that seems to defy logic. You can have a reasonable idea of what should work, but testing sometimes shows your ideas to be inaccurate. I have a tremendous amount of respect for both LG and Katech and defer to their superior knowledge and real world testing in this area!
Jack.
Jack.
01-08-2011, 07:48 PM
#62
Former Vendor
JB - You know my opinion....
I plan on running the LG Splitter / Side skirts on my Z.
Let me know if anyone needs great pricing on Splitters / Skirts.
I plan on running the LG Splitter / Side skirts on my Z.
Let me know if anyone needs great pricing on Splitters / Skirts.
Last edited by Adam at RSI; 01-08-2011 at 07:50 PM.
01-08-2011, 08:07 PM
#63
Le Mans Master
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Ok, then let's get specific. The sheer comment that a spoiler (which has nothing to do with a splitter...) on the rear of the car delays air separation from the boundary layer on the rear of the car is pure bull. A spoiler put on the back of a car to increase rear end stability at speed is put there because separation has ALREADY OCCURRED and the spoiler height is set such that it is in the airstream that has separated and tries to redirect some of the energy back to the car through the struts connecting the spoiler to the car.
And yes, go see if you can find on Wikipedia how much it costs to build a rolling road wind tunnel that's large enough for full size automobiles.
Keep in mind that OEM solutions are a HUGE compromise (except in the case of Bugatti, Ferrari, McLaren, etc where cubic dollars are paid for a set of keys) between functionality and COST. Automobile manufacturers that build on the "cost is no object" model are either bankrupt or sell very few cars. Racing teams, on the other hand, are on a "spend money to win" model (assuming the sponsors follow along). The goals and objectives are TOTALLY different.
And T&E is an AWFUL way to do R&D. My thesis work alone is proof of that. 90 different camshaft and intake profiles in a T&E methodology. best improvement over the original engine was 1.5 HP (test engine was a fully developed NASCAR plate motor). After running some serious statistical analysis and using some "cheap" $30k CFD modeling software, a single test showed a 5 HP improvement. THAT's why racing teams don't do T&E. They wouldn't have any time OR MONEY to build the car!
Have fun with your T&E.
Have fun with your T&E.
And BTW, if you use MODIFIED Bernoulli's Equation, you may be able to understand why even though the air slows down behind the air dam, the pressure drops as well. This is a counterintuitive thing but this is exactly what takes place... Yes there is a drop in STATIC pressure behind the dam. Long live the front undertray.
Last edited by petermj; 01-08-2011 at 08:18 PM.
01-08-2011, 09:19 PM
#64
Drifting
if you are shooting randomly in the dark, T&E sucks, however, starting from a valid point with sound approach, T&E becomes progressive improvement and verification. In the case of aerodynamics, you can establish a pretty decent starting point period, assumming you are using a sound concept to begin with instead of trying to improve a turd.
And BTW, if you use MODIFIED Bernoulli's Equation, you may be able to understand why even though the air slows down behind the air dam, the pressure drops as well. This is a counterintuitive thing but this is exactly what takes place... Yes there is a drop in STATIC pressure behind the dam. Long live the front undertray.
If you're talking about the Extended Equation, you're still wrong. The extended equation allows you to account for hydrostatic loading (due to elevation differentials - which we don't have here), pumps (which we don't have here) and friction loss due to boundary layer skin loading (which is insignificant here).
BTW, I laugh at your comment about multiple vendors "knocking out the same stuff" being "uninspiring". Ever think that the reason they do is because it works? The reason, also, why they don't throw the OEM design away and start over rather than modify it to be the way you want it is because no one would pay for it. If the solution is effective, not perfect, and marketable, it's a better business decision for the vendor AND the consumer than something that is effective, perfect and NOT marketable due to excessive cost.
Last edited by CorvetteZ51Racer; 01-08-2011 at 09:26 PM.
01-08-2011, 10:07 PM
#65
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In colloquial terms, the wiki explanation seems pretty good to me, unless you feel an urge to point out any inaccurate info it may contain. The NASA study was not available at this time. T&E seems like a pretty good approach to me, assumming the baseline is reasonable. LOL at multimillion dollar labs coming up with these designs, sorry could not help a chuckle. Although makes you kinda wonder why they even bother considering that GM allegedly spent big bucks and yet they insist on improving on this perfection. I hope I am not getting busted soon for doing this stuff in my garage without a healthy R&D budget. I bet you could tell right away which design commanded a healthy budget too...
01-09-2011, 12:05 AM
#66
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T&E is ALWAYS progressive improvement and verification, whether you start with a good foundation or not. The point is that by the time you reach the same end result, T&E has taken considerably more money and time to get there. T&E has it's place. Fluid dynamics is not one of them, and neither is engine development (which is merely complex FD).
Are you talking about the Extended Equation or the Compressible Flow Equation? Compressible flow is not applicable here due to the velocity of the air. It is applicable in Top Fuel and Funny cars, but not Sports Racing cars.
If you're talking about the Extended Equation, you're still wrong. The extended equation allows you to account for hydrostatic loading (due to elevation differentials - which we don't have here), pumps (which we don't have here) and friction loss due to boundary layer skin loading (which is insignificant here).
BTW, I laugh at your comment about multiple vendors "knocking out the same stuff" being "uninspiring". Ever think that the reason they do is because it works? The reason, also, why they don't throw the OEM design away and start over rather than modify it to be the way you want it is because no one would pay for it. If the solution is effective, not perfect, and marketable, it's a better business decision for the vendor AND the consumer than something that is effective, perfect and NOT marketable due to excessive cost.
If you're talking about the Extended Equation, you're still wrong. The extended equation allows you to account for hydrostatic loading (due to elevation differentials - which we don't have here), pumps (which we don't have here) and friction loss due to boundary layer skin loading (which is insignificant here).
BTW, I laugh at your comment about multiple vendors "knocking out the same stuff" being "uninspiring". Ever think that the reason they do is because it works? The reason, also, why they don't throw the OEM design away and start over rather than modify it to be the way you want it is because no one would pay for it. If the solution is effective, not perfect, and marketable, it's a better business decision for the vendor AND the consumer than something that is effective, perfect and NOT marketable due to excessive cost.
01-09-2011, 12:14 AM
#68
Le Mans Master
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BTW, I laugh at your comment about multiple vendors "knocking out the same stuff" being "uninspiring". Ever think that the reason they do is because it works? The reason, also, why they don't throw the OEM design away and start over rather than modify it to be the way you want it is because no one would pay for it. If the solution is effective, not perfect, and marketable, it's a better business decision for the vendor AND the consumer than something that is effective, perfect and NOT marketable due to excessive cost.
It is up to you I guess if you want to buy business decision or something that actually does something. And no, I fail to see any savings passed on to the consumer. 2 grand for a splitter is a crapload of money.
01-09-2011, 05:29 AM
#69
I just wanted to say many thanks to Lou for his in depth contribution to this thread - I've learned a great deal from his posts.
I'm sure there will have been 101 other things he could have better been doing, rather than taking time out to post here - so big respect to a guy who has 'been there and done it' - and really knows what he is talking about!
I for my part have the highest regard for professionals like LG and Katech whom I know, leave no stone unturned in their pursuit of Corvette excellence, expending considerable resources as they do in the development of 'cutting edge' products that keep my favorite car right where it should be - out in front of the pack.
Thanks too, to Corvette Z51 Racer for his well informed contributions here too - all in all, a very interesting read.
I was interested in LG's set up for the Mile Run car - without wishing him to divulge any 'dark secrets', I wondered if Lou might have any general tips with regard to getting the best aero configuration and setup for the Z06 in a straight line maximum speed attempt.
Many thanks
I'm sure there will have been 101 other things he could have better been doing, rather than taking time out to post here - so big respect to a guy who has 'been there and done it' - and really knows what he is talking about!
I for my part have the highest regard for professionals like LG and Katech whom I know, leave no stone unturned in their pursuit of Corvette excellence, expending considerable resources as they do in the development of 'cutting edge' products that keep my favorite car right where it should be - out in front of the pack.
Thanks too, to Corvette Z51 Racer for his well informed contributions here too - all in all, a very interesting read.
I was interested in LG's set up for the Mile Run car - without wishing him to divulge any 'dark secrets', I wondered if Lou might have any general tips with regard to getting the best aero configuration and setup for the Z06 in a straight line maximum speed attempt.
Many thanks
01-09-2011, 09:46 AM
#70
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I just wanted to say many thanks to Lou for his in depth contribution to this thread - I've learned a great deal from his posts.
I'm sure there will have been 101 other things he could have better been doing, rather than taking time out to post here - so big respect to a guy who has 'been there and done it' - and really knows what he is talking about!
I for my part have the highest regard for professionals like LG and Katech whom I know, leave no stone unturned in their pursuit of Corvette excellence, expending considerable resources as they do in the development of 'cutting edge' products that keep my favorite car right where it should be - out in front of the pack.
Thanks too, to Corvette Z51 Racer for his well informed contributions here too - all in all, a very interesting read.
I was interested in LG's set up for the Mile Run car - without wishing him to divulge any 'dark secrets', I wondered if Lou might have any general tips with regard to getting the best aero configuration and setup for the Z06 in a straight line maximum speed attempt.
Many thanks
I'm sure there will have been 101 other things he could have better been doing, rather than taking time out to post here - so big respect to a guy who has 'been there and done it' - and really knows what he is talking about!
I for my part have the highest regard for professionals like LG and Katech whom I know, leave no stone unturned in their pursuit of Corvette excellence, expending considerable resources as they do in the development of 'cutting edge' products that keep my favorite car right where it should be - out in front of the pack.
Thanks too, to Corvette Z51 Racer for his well informed contributions here too - all in all, a very interesting read.
I was interested in LG's set up for the Mile Run car - without wishing him to divulge any 'dark secrets', I wondered if Lou might have any general tips with regard to getting the best aero configuration and setup for the Z06 in a straight line maximum speed attempt.
Many thanks
The adults are the above mentioned posters who base their work on actuall research done in a wind tunnel and on the track and streets. Thanks to Lou and Katech for all the great products you bring us.
01-09-2011, 10:34 AM
#71
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St. Jude Vendor Donor '03-'04-'05-'06-'07-'08-'09-'10-'11
Man, Thanks for the props. We do work hard at it. Plus, I never in my wildest dreams would have thought that I could make a living doing something that I love so much. Thanks guys.
Ok, Top speed, Mile runs. Start with a "domino's Pizza" sign on the roof!
JUST KIDDING,
Sorry, I had to do that.
First, Don't add any rear down force, keep your stock rear spoiler which is just enough to keep the car controllable at the rear.
The front is the bad part. Lower the car as much as you can for starters, then concentrate on keeping as much air from going under the car.
We added our louvered hood to reduce drag and help the air to exit the engine compartment and reduce lift. But that was not enough.
my first run at the Texas Mile, I had to pedal it at 198 because I could not keep it in a straight line. No front end stability
So we went to the tractor trailer rig and took off one of the mud flaps and cut it in 2 strips to make just a flat front air dam around the whole fascia. No front splitter at all, just a blunt nose.
We went there with aver 1000 hp so the engine was twisting so much, it took me a couple of runs to figure out that I had to lift and shift slowly so I could find the right gear.
I think the next couple of runs were about 205 to 206mph.
Then we started to reduce the size of the radiator opening. we got it down to about 90 square inches, which is plenty large enough to cool the engine at 200+. But that put us over 210mph. We ended up at 210.3
We figured that the same car could have hit over 215 because we ran the engine on the very safe rich mixture. at the end of the 210.3 run i actually lifted slightly when it went rich because I thought I was burning a piston.
you can hear the engine sound different as I approached the mile marker.
My son Louis had the top end go rich as a safety measure but we ran out of time to change it. Plus we would implement some other minor aero tweaks for a future run. That car is now in Europe on the Autobahn.
We plan on building a package for the ZR1 for a run either spring or fall, but we do want to see what the ZR1 can do. (Sans Spoilers) and no wing for sure.
Watch the video from the Mile and you can see a picture or two with the nose mods.
It is up to (1,300,000) 1 million 300 thousand views so far
http://www.streetfire.net/video/lg-m...mph_195518.htm <<<<<VIDEO LINK
even with the front closed off, at 200mph the car was pushed down so far it still ground off the front air dam off.
Have fun
Lou Gigliotti
Ok, Top speed, Mile runs. Start with a "domino's Pizza" sign on the roof!
JUST KIDDING,
Sorry, I had to do that.
First, Don't add any rear down force, keep your stock rear spoiler which is just enough to keep the car controllable at the rear.
The front is the bad part. Lower the car as much as you can for starters, then concentrate on keeping as much air from going under the car.
We added our louvered hood to reduce drag and help the air to exit the engine compartment and reduce lift. But that was not enough.
my first run at the Texas Mile, I had to pedal it at 198 because I could not keep it in a straight line. No front end stability
So we went to the tractor trailer rig and took off one of the mud flaps and cut it in 2 strips to make just a flat front air dam around the whole fascia. No front splitter at all, just a blunt nose.
We went there with aver 1000 hp so the engine was twisting so much, it took me a couple of runs to figure out that I had to lift and shift slowly so I could find the right gear.
I think the next couple of runs were about 205 to 206mph.
Then we started to reduce the size of the radiator opening. we got it down to about 90 square inches, which is plenty large enough to cool the engine at 200+. But that put us over 210mph. We ended up at 210.3
We figured that the same car could have hit over 215 because we ran the engine on the very safe rich mixture. at the end of the 210.3 run i actually lifted slightly when it went rich because I thought I was burning a piston.
you can hear the engine sound different as I approached the mile marker.
My son Louis had the top end go rich as a safety measure but we ran out of time to change it. Plus we would implement some other minor aero tweaks for a future run. That car is now in Europe on the Autobahn.
We plan on building a package for the ZR1 for a run either spring or fall, but we do want to see what the ZR1 can do. (Sans Spoilers) and no wing for sure.
Watch the video from the Mile and you can see a picture or two with the nose mods.
It is up to (1,300,000) 1 million 300 thousand views so far
http://www.streetfire.net/video/lg-m...mph_195518.htm <<<<<VIDEO LINK
even with the front closed off, at 200mph the car was pushed down so far it still ground off the front air dam off.
Have fun
Lou Gigliotti
Last edited by LG Motorsports; 01-09-2011 at 11:13 AM.
01-09-2011, 10:50 AM
#72
petermj
I don't know why you are wasting your time talking to people who don't understand your concept. I would patent your idea and sell it to all of the race teams.
I am sure after a few races and wins with your new spoiler you would have no trouble marketing it.
With all of the money you make I have a bridge you can buy.
I don't know why you are wasting your time talking to people who don't understand your concept. I would patent your idea and sell it to all of the race teams.
I am sure after a few races and wins with your new spoiler you would have no trouble marketing it.
With all of the money you make I have a bridge you can buy.
01-09-2011, 04:19 PM
#73
The cat's out of the bag now for sure, with regard to the latest 'high tech' trend that factory teams are utilising for improved aerodynamics!
Heard on the grape vine that 'England's Finest' are preparing for a major assult on this year's Texas Mile, so watch out! - here's a spy shot of their mule, caught off guard in a secret car park - shssh, don't tell anyone!!!
Thanks for the insight on the top speed run - very interesting - and many congratulations on a fantastic and courageous effort on the mile
01-11-2011, 10:24 AM
#75
Cruising is the passion!
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St. Jude Donor '07-'08-'09-'10-'11-'12-'13-'14-'15-'16-'17-'18-'19-'20-'21-'22-'23-'24
Hi Lou - I have a question, but first thanks for sharing your knowledge and experience here. What are your thoughts on just installing side skirts on my 06Z without the front splitter - what can I expect at high speeds? Pro & Con. Many guys seem to damage/replace splitters often (and I probably will too) I'm wondering what is to be gained with just the side skirts. Thanks!
01-11-2011, 10:50 AM
#76
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St. Jude Vendor Donor '03-'04-'05-'06-'07-'08-'09-'10-'11
Hi Lou - I have a question, but first thanks for sharing your knowledge and experience here. What are your thoughts on just installing side skirts on my 06Z without the front splitter - what can I expect at high speeds? Pro & Con. Many guys seem to damage/replace splitters often (and I probably will too) I'm wondering what is to be gained with just the side skirts. Thanks!
With just the side skirts, you won't feel much of a difference. THey work mostly in Yaw. (air hitting on an angle)
We have seen some high speed improvement in the front by removing the under body air dam. and you can also help the top speed front stability with a louvered hood, which will reduce the under hood pressure causing lift. (hard to hit your hood on a curb
)So in summary: just the side skirts would be a very small +, but without the front splitter you won't see the full benefit at High Speed and a hood with louvers and removing the air dam underneath will help quite a bit.
Thanks
Lou Gigliotti
01-11-2011, 11:34 AM
#77
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Lou,
I appreciate your involvement in this thread. As much as I also read into petermj's percieved goating, it also shows that you have used various R&D to develop a product. To which, I believe I will be placing an order this week on an LG splitter and side skirts. I do have one thing that has me some-what on the fence:
From the pictures of the LG components, I do not see this verticle piece as with the APR kit? In the gray Z06 you have on the website, it seems like you have something here - but the shadow makes it very hard to see.
Thoughts / Comments?
Thanks,
Mike
I appreciate your involvement in this thread. As much as I also read into petermj's percieved goating, it also shows that you have used various R&D to develop a product. To which, I believe I will be placing an order this week on an LG splitter and side skirts. I do have one thing that has me some-what on the fence:
From the pictures of the LG components, I do not see this verticle piece as with the APR kit? In the gray Z06 you have on the website, it seems like you have something here - but the shadow makes it very hard to see.
Thoughts / Comments?
Thanks,
Mike
01-11-2011, 11:46 AM
#78
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St. Jude Vendor Donor '03-'04-'05-'06-'07-'08-'09-'10-'11
Lou,
I appreciate your involvement in this thread. As much as I also read into petermj's percieved goating, it also shows that you have used various R&D to develop a product. To which, I believe I will be placing an order this week on an LG splitter and side skirts. I do have one thing that has me some-what on the fence:
From the pictures of the LG components, I do not see this verticle piece as with the APR kit? In the gray Z06 you have on the website, it seems like you have something here - but the shadow makes it very hard to see.
Thoughts / Comments?
Thanks,
Mike
I appreciate your involvement in this thread. As much as I also read into petermj's percieved goating, it also shows that you have used various R&D to develop a product. To which, I believe I will be placing an order this week on an LG splitter and side skirts. I do have one thing that has me some-what on the fence:
From the pictures of the LG components, I do not see this verticle piece as with the APR kit? In the gray Z06 you have on the website, it seems like you have something here - but the shadow makes it very hard to see.
Thoughts / Comments?
Thanks,
Mike
We can supply them for you but you might be able to get a better price from your dealer because that is where we get them.
GIve the guys a call at LGM and they can help you out.
Thanks
Lou G
01-11-2011, 11:52 AM
#79
Racer
I've been following this thread and have found it to both be informative as well as entertaining. Despite being but a simpleton, I have an uncontrollable need to post my insight into fluid dynamics and front splitter designs. After considering the various manufacturers, materials, finishes, installation procedures, hottest spring fashion trends, whether time really bends due to the gravity of a black hole... I found the need to pursue the answer to my dilemma through the study of fluid dynamics. Inasmuch, I sought guidance in the requisite knowledge which resides safe inside my repository of greatness. I embraced the trek into my garage and opened the repository of greatness (the garage refrigerator) from which I retrieved a container of deliciousness (a beer) and through consumption achieved enlightenment.
Perhaps my decision process is flawed since I don't dabble in engineering academics or stand in front of a fan or fly airplanes. Regardless, I figure I'll go with the carbon fiber LG Splitter to replace my fiberglass splitter once I find a deal on a used one. From what I gather it's a solid design, doesn't require fascia reinforcement, unrestricted duct airflow, fairly simple installation, and is backed by years of race experience.
I'm gonna go study some more fluid dynamics stuff by drinking another beer.
Perhaps my decision process is flawed since I don't dabble in engineering academics or stand in front of a fan or fly airplanes. Regardless, I figure I'll go with the carbon fiber LG Splitter to replace my fiberglass splitter once I find a deal on a used one. From what I gather it's a solid design, doesn't require fascia reinforcement, unrestricted duct airflow, fairly simple installation, and is backed by years of race experience.
I'm gonna go study some more fluid dynamics stuff by drinking another beer.
01-11-2011, 12:02 PM
#80
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St. Jude Vendor Donor '03-'04-'05-'06-'07-'08-'09-'10-'11
I've been following this thread and have found it to both be informative as well as entertaining. Despite being but a simpleton, I have an uncontrollable need to post my insight into fluid dynamics and front splitter designs. After considering the various manufacturers, materials, finishes, installation procedures, hottest spring fashion trends, whether time really bends due to the gravity of a black hole... I found the need to pursue the answer to my dilemma through the study of fluid dynamics. Inasmuch, I sought guidance in the requisite knowledge which resides safe inside my repository of greatness. I embraced the trek into my garage and opened the repository of greatness (the garage refrigerator) from which I retrieved a container of deliciousness (a beer) and through consumption achieved enlightenment.
Perhaps my decision process is flawed since I don't dabble in engineering academics or stand in front of a fan or fly airplanes. Regardless, I figure I'll go with the carbon fiber LG Splitter to replace my fiberglass splitter once I find a deal on a used one. From what I gather it's a solid design, doesn't require fascia reinforcement, unrestricted duct airflow, fairly simple installation, and is backed by years of race experience.
I'm gonna go study some more fluid dynamics stuff by drinking another beer.
Perhaps my decision process is flawed since I don't dabble in engineering academics or stand in front of a fan or fly airplanes. Regardless, I figure I'll go with the carbon fiber LG Splitter to replace my fiberglass splitter once I find a deal on a used one. From what I gather it's a solid design, doesn't require fascia reinforcement, unrestricted duct airflow, fairly simple installation, and is backed by years of race experience.
I'm gonna go study some more fluid dynamics stuff by drinking another beer.
GOOD ONE !
LG