[Z06] Why No LS7 in C7Z06
02-03-2014, 10:57 AM
#1
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
Why No LS7 in C7Z06
I'm summarizing CAR AND DRIVER, Mar 2014, pg.40:
GM wanted the gas savings of Active Fuel Management (cylinder shutdown) on the new Z06 (and probably on all new V8s in the future) and this requires that the lifters must collapse on certain cylinders. However, this lifter collapse is not reliable at the high revs needed for a re-desligned, normally aspirated LS7. There were also concerns about emissions.
So the 7000 RPM LS7 appears to me to be a kind of high water mark for cam-in-block engines from GM. And probably for cam-in-block engines from anyone else.
I think the future market for our cars looks bright.
GM wanted the gas savings of Active Fuel Management (cylinder shutdown) on the new Z06 (and probably on all new V8s in the future) and this requires that the lifters must collapse on certain cylinders. However, this lifter collapse is not reliable at the high revs needed for a re-desligned, normally aspirated LS7. There were also concerns about emissions.
So the 7000 RPM LS7 appears to me to be a kind of high water mark for cam-in-block engines from GM. And probably for cam-in-block engines from anyone else.
I think the future market for our cars looks bright.
Last edited by Norm_427; 02-03-2014 at 11:00 AM.
02-03-2014, 11:07 AM
#2
Burning Brakes
I'm summarizing CAR AND DRIVER, Mar 2014, pg.40:
GM wanted the gas savings of Active Fuel Management (cylinder shutdown) on the new Z06 (and probably on all new V8s in the future) and this requires that the lifters must collapse on certain cylinders. However, this lifter collapse is not reliable at the high revs needed for a re-desligned, normally aspirated LS7. There were also concerns about emissions.
So the 7000 RPM LS7 appears to me to be a kind of high water mark for cam-in-block engines from GM. And probably for cam-in-block engines from anyone else.
I think the future market for our cars looks bright.
GM wanted the gas savings of Active Fuel Management (cylinder shutdown) on the new Z06 (and probably on all new V8s in the future) and this requires that the lifters must collapse on certain cylinders. However, this lifter collapse is not reliable at the high revs needed for a re-desligned, normally aspirated LS7. There were also concerns about emissions.
So the 7000 RPM LS7 appears to me to be a kind of high water mark for cam-in-block engines from GM. And probably for cam-in-block engines from anyone else.
I think the future market for our cars looks bright.
02-03-2014, 11:25 AM
#3
Melting Slicks
Member Since: Dec 2009
Location: Smallingerland Friesland, Netherlands
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Exactly.
<quote>
A normally aspirated engine couldn't meet the power, durability and emissions/efficiency requirements Chevy targeted for the Z06, according Juechter. "The only way to make anywhere near this kind of power with a normally aspirated engine is to rev it well beyond 7,000 rpm," he said. "But that isn't possible with the Active Fuel Management hardware, which increases valvetrain weight." As an added bonus, Juechter insists that the final calibration of the LT4 will make the LS9 (the outgoing ZR1 engine) feel like it has no bottom end.
<unquote>
Source: 2015 Chevrolet Corvette Z06 First Look - Behind the Z06 Curtain.
Last edited by Z06Ronald; 02-03-2014 at 11:27 AM.
02-03-2014, 11:30 AM
#4
Former Vendor
Member Since: Aug 2005
Location: Lewisville TX
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St. Jude Donor '03-'04-'05-'06-'07-'08-'09-'10-'11-'12-'13
They should be able to have a smaller forced induction engine do better on fuel economy and emissions than what the LS7 did on a regular basis.
Unless a major change happens in technology I don't think we will see a big displacement engine like that again.
Unless a major change happens in technology I don't think we will see a big displacement engine like that again.
02-03-2014, 02:43 PM
#5
Safety Car
Just as the late 60's and very early 70's were the era of the big block, the last 8 years have been the era of the Big Inch Small Block.
I think we are now entering the era of the poweradder. F1 shows that you can get insane amounts of power out of very small displacements. I suspect that is the way of the future.
One of the reason I bought my Z is that I wanted to have an NA 427 as I didn't (and still don't) think that is going to happen ever again not withstanding a few Camaro Z28s.
I think we are now entering the era of the poweradder. F1 shows that you can get insane amounts of power out of very small displacements. I suspect that is the way of the future.
One of the reason I bought my Z is that I wanted to have an NA 427 as I didn't (and still don't) think that is going to happen ever again not withstanding a few Camaro Z28s.
02-03-2014, 04:44 PM
#6
Le Mans Master
02-03-2014, 05:03 PM
#7
While 7 liters gives them enough displacement to meet power goals even in NA form, it might not be suitable from an NVH, emissions, or fuel consumption standards that GM must abide by. FI is the standard path now for making more power. Every manufacturer is doing this due to the regulatory restrictions.
I think the other part of it has to do with cost. The LS7 required a lot of bespoke parts that couldn't be used in any other LS engine. By sticking to a consistent bore and stroke, they could technically use the same connecting rods, pistons, block, and other major parts across the whole lineup. This saves money and gives them flexibility in manufacturing.
BMW is doing something similar, where they could share parts from a 3 cylinder with a 4 and 6 cylinder engine. The pistons, turbos, and other hardware are the same. Just a matter of how many pistons and turbos need to be fitted for that particular engine. No surprise that GM is going down this route too.
With the LS7 being the highest revving + highest displacement SBC and possibly the most powerful NA engine from GM, I do agree that the LS7 is a high water mark in SBC history and design.
I think the other part of it has to do with cost. The LS7 required a lot of bespoke parts that couldn't be used in any other LS engine. By sticking to a consistent bore and stroke, they could technically use the same connecting rods, pistons, block, and other major parts across the whole lineup. This saves money and gives them flexibility in manufacturing.
BMW is doing something similar, where they could share parts from a 3 cylinder with a 4 and 6 cylinder engine. The pistons, turbos, and other hardware are the same. Just a matter of how many pistons and turbos need to be fitted for that particular engine. No surprise that GM is going down this route too.
With the LS7 being the highest revving + highest displacement SBC and possibly the most powerful NA engine from GM, I do agree that the LS7 is a high water mark in SBC history and design.
02-03-2014, 05:42 PM
#8
While 7 liters gives them enough displacement to meet power goals even in NA form, it might not be suitable from an NVH, emissions, or fuel consumption standards that GM must abide by. FI is the standard path now for making more power. Every manufacturer is doing this due to the regulatory restrictions.
I think the other part of it has to do with cost. The LS7 required a lot of bespoke parts that couldn't be used in any other LS engine. By sticking to a consistent bore and stroke, they could technically use the same connecting rods, pistons, block, and other major parts across the whole lineup. This saves money and gives them flexibility in manufacturing.
BMW is doing something similar, where they could share parts from a 3 cylinder with a 4 and 6 cylinder engine. The pistons, turbos, and other hardware are the same. Just a matter of how many pistons and turbos need to be fitted for that particular engine. No surprise that GM is going down this route too.
With the LS7 being the highest revving + highest displacement SBC and possibly the most powerful NA engine from GM, I do agree that the LS7 is a high water mark in SBC history and design.
I think the other part of it has to do with cost. The LS7 required a lot of bespoke parts that couldn't be used in any other LS engine. By sticking to a consistent bore and stroke, they could technically use the same connecting rods, pistons, block, and other major parts across the whole lineup. This saves money and gives them flexibility in manufacturing.
BMW is doing something similar, where they could share parts from a 3 cylinder with a 4 and 6 cylinder engine. The pistons, turbos, and other hardware are the same. Just a matter of how many pistons and turbos need to be fitted for that particular engine. No surprise that GM is going down this route too.
With the LS7 being the highest revving + highest displacement SBC and possibly the most powerful NA engine from GM, I do agree that the LS7 is a high water mark in SBC history and design.
BMW went from their V10 engine on their M5 to TT V8..and that thing is a monster.
02-03-2014, 05:49 PM
#9
In praise of the C6Z06 and the LS7
The new Z06 is a triumph of modern automobile design by Corvette - I'm sure it will do very well and rightly so, it’s a fantastic job
My personal take, for what that is worth, is that the new supercharged car is much more a development of the C6 ZR1 concept than the C6Z06.
That is understandable, because ‘downsizing and forced induction’ is today’s engine design mantra for most mainstream manufacturers, because it is simply the most effective way of ‘killing two birds with the one stone.’
Correctly engineered Forced Induction systems reliably allow high output potential from relatively small engine capacities.
Engineering a high performance setup this way is the cost effective path to providing big horsepower at the wheels whilst at the same time delivering those reduced exhaust gas emissions from the tail pipe, nowadays so necessary to keep the Legislators happy
Forced Induction systems offer the potential to reduce production costs too, in as much as that if a manufacturer starts out with a well designed power unit with strong core potential as a foundation, then it is relatively easy for it to alter its power and torque characteristics as the market and competition require, without having to resort to major and costly basic re engineering of the whole design.
It is still of course, possible to design and manufacture ‘emissions street legal’ high output/high performance NA power plants, but these designs tend to become the province of the exotic top end Manufacturers like Ferrari, Lamborghini at al, and their very wealthy clientele
For the rest of us?
Well for the most part, forced induction is where it’s at - take it or leave it.
Pretty soon even your lawnmower will have a turbo on it, I’m sure!
The new C7Z06 is designed to be the ultimate enthusiast’s car.
Of course, if I tried to define what a car enthusiast was, I’d be writing all night and still get it wrong.
Folks thankfully buy and enthuse about cars for so many different reasons - nothing wrong with that for sure, it’s just what the market needs to keep it healthy.
I regard myself as a car enthusiast - I’ve been a car nut since I was knee-high to a Grasshopper.
I, like many other forum members want to ‘own’ my car - it’s a profound hobby - a personal issue, a way of life.
I like to modify my car, to work on it and service it myself, and the problem for me, and those like me, is that with the design complexities and the costs modern automobile products coming onto the market, it is becoming harder, if not impossible, to for me to indulge my passion.
The latest design offerings to the market are becoming way too complex and too costly for the average enthusiast.
In many important ways you don’t own a modern car - it owns you!
You keep up the payments and the dealer service record, in order to maintain the resale value, when you trade it - and trade it you do, once the warranty is up - simply because of the horrendous cost of repairing faults, once the car is out of warranty.
I recently saw repair bills for a friends out of warranty M5 BMW which would make even the strong go weak at the knees - certainly some houses round here cost less!
The average enthusiast may hope otherwise, but in truth, there’s little he can do but keep up the payments and carry on, primarily because to equip himself with the tools and the technical insight necessary to service and repair the Industry’s latest 4 wheeled offerings, is a step too far in terms of the allocation of his resources with regard to both finance and time.
Of course even if he had funds and time enough to access the tools and the technology needed to probe the inner secrets of his pride and joy - be very sure that Manufacturers and Legislators are extremely keen he should not do so.
Very soon modifying your cars innards will be ‘not allowed’ - Big Brother, if he has his way, will be monitoring your every attempt, determined to stop you and make you pay for your sins should you try!
The first guy to modify a new C7 Z06 within the warranty period deserves a medal for bravery in the line of fire!
Thankfully there is a place for guys like me to go, where we can indulge our hobby for car mechanics, and actually hope to own the product of our efforts - it’s called the C6Z06/LS7.
I know the car may not without its faults, and recognise many forum members have had their problems, and whilst I do empathise with them, I still think the C6Z06 is one of the greatest cars ever designed and produced for the hardcore enthusiast.
It is certainly without doubt, one of the best ever performance car designs produced in the USA, and if ever there was a car for the hard core enthusiast to aspire to - to own, to work on and modify - it is this!
I’ve always felt the C6Z06 was a car built and designed by ‘Hot Rodders’ - for ‘Hot Rodders’
I can almost see them glance over their shoulders, winking, and saying to us - this is the best that the Company and the Government will let us do for you - it's up to you to take it on from here.
I don’t see it ever becoming a collector’s item for Garage Queens - and who would wish that on it anyway - but it will be sought out by those smart and capable guys who know what they are about, can see the car’s true potential, and have the ability and initiative to exploit and maximise the promise it offers.
The C6 Z06 has a full suit of all the basic core essentials necessary for performance car greatness - light weight, great chassis balance, and excellent aero, for starters - and a relatively uncomplicated and accessible design whose innards that are accessible without the need to have unrestricted access to complete contents of the Snap-On tool catalogue.
Surely the true greatness of any engineering design is measured by its ability of its progeny to empower, enable, and inspire the individual as he makes use of it on his journey through life.
Not everyone has the financial good fortune to be able to house a 100,000 dollar car in his collection.
A ‘blue collar’ enthusiast for instance, may never hope to own a new $100,000 car - but some place down the line, he may just be able to reach up to buy and own a second hand C6Z06,
If he can do so, then he will know that in it, he has all that he needs to enable him to start out on that journey he has dreamt of.
With time and his skills he can make it all the car he wants it to be - a light weight 650 BHP ‘track iron‘, or a 1000 + BHP Drag Strip monster - or whatever combination of the two he desires to create.
The choice is his - it's a personal matter!
The car has the talent, and if he has the ability to unlock its secrets then the C6Z06, special car that it is, will let him have his way, and enable him to run with whatever is out there.
The C6Z06 is a truly great piece of design, primarily because of its ability to empower its owner.
It inspires and enables any individual who dares, by offering to him a soundly engineered facility with flair and ability in such measure as is necessary to give him the confidence to extend himself, and, thus, if he has the talent, to find a way to truly reach for the stars.
It is a design which says to the disciple in his quest for the ultimate automotive experience -
"Want to go fast, really fast? - well, if you’ve got what it takes, then so have I, and brother together we can make it happen!"
Well done Corvette!
Surely nothing is closer to the ethos of the American dream than that!
My personal take, for what that is worth, is that the new supercharged car is much more a development of the C6 ZR1 concept than the C6Z06.
That is understandable, because ‘downsizing and forced induction’ is today’s engine design mantra for most mainstream manufacturers, because it is simply the most effective way of ‘killing two birds with the one stone.’
Correctly engineered Forced Induction systems reliably allow high output potential from relatively small engine capacities.
Engineering a high performance setup this way is the cost effective path to providing big horsepower at the wheels whilst at the same time delivering those reduced exhaust gas emissions from the tail pipe, nowadays so necessary to keep the Legislators happy
Forced Induction systems offer the potential to reduce production costs too, in as much as that if a manufacturer starts out with a well designed power unit with strong core potential as a foundation, then it is relatively easy for it to alter its power and torque characteristics as the market and competition require, without having to resort to major and costly basic re engineering of the whole design.
It is still of course, possible to design and manufacture ‘emissions street legal’ high output/high performance NA power plants, but these designs tend to become the province of the exotic top end Manufacturers like Ferrari, Lamborghini at al, and their very wealthy clientele
For the rest of us?
Well for the most part, forced induction is where it’s at - take it or leave it.
Pretty soon even your lawnmower will have a turbo on it, I’m sure!
The new C7Z06 is designed to be the ultimate enthusiast’s car.
Of course, if I tried to define what a car enthusiast was, I’d be writing all night and still get it wrong.
Folks thankfully buy and enthuse about cars for so many different reasons - nothing wrong with that for sure, it’s just what the market needs to keep it healthy.
I regard myself as a car enthusiast - I’ve been a car nut since I was knee-high to a Grasshopper.
I, like many other forum members want to ‘own’ my car - it’s a profound hobby - a personal issue, a way of life.
I like to modify my car, to work on it and service it myself, and the problem for me, and those like me, is that with the design complexities and the costs modern automobile products coming onto the market, it is becoming harder, if not impossible, to for me to indulge my passion.
The latest design offerings to the market are becoming way too complex and too costly for the average enthusiast.
In many important ways you don’t own a modern car - it owns you!
You keep up the payments and the dealer service record, in order to maintain the resale value, when you trade it - and trade it you do, once the warranty is up - simply because of the horrendous cost of repairing faults, once the car is out of warranty.
I recently saw repair bills for a friends out of warranty M5 BMW which would make even the strong go weak at the knees - certainly some houses round here cost less!
The average enthusiast may hope otherwise, but in truth, there’s little he can do but keep up the payments and carry on, primarily because to equip himself with the tools and the technical insight necessary to service and repair the Industry’s latest 4 wheeled offerings, is a step too far in terms of the allocation of his resources with regard to both finance and time.
Of course even if he had funds and time enough to access the tools and the technology needed to probe the inner secrets of his pride and joy - be very sure that Manufacturers and Legislators are extremely keen he should not do so.
Very soon modifying your cars innards will be ‘not allowed’ - Big Brother, if he has his way, will be monitoring your every attempt, determined to stop you and make you pay for your sins should you try!
The first guy to modify a new C7 Z06 within the warranty period deserves a medal for bravery in the line of fire!
Thankfully there is a place for guys like me to go, where we can indulge our hobby for car mechanics, and actually hope to own the product of our efforts - it’s called the C6Z06/LS7.
I know the car may not without its faults, and recognise many forum members have had their problems, and whilst I do empathise with them, I still think the C6Z06 is one of the greatest cars ever designed and produced for the hardcore enthusiast.
It is certainly without doubt, one of the best ever performance car designs produced in the USA, and if ever there was a car for the hard core enthusiast to aspire to - to own, to work on and modify - it is this!
I’ve always felt the C6Z06 was a car built and designed by ‘Hot Rodders’ - for ‘Hot Rodders’
I can almost see them glance over their shoulders, winking, and saying to us - this is the best that the Company and the Government will let us do for you - it's up to you to take it on from here.
I don’t see it ever becoming a collector’s item for Garage Queens - and who would wish that on it anyway - but it will be sought out by those smart and capable guys who know what they are about, can see the car’s true potential, and have the ability and initiative to exploit and maximise the promise it offers.
The C6 Z06 has a full suit of all the basic core essentials necessary for performance car greatness - light weight, great chassis balance, and excellent aero, for starters - and a relatively uncomplicated and accessible design whose innards that are accessible without the need to have unrestricted access to complete contents of the Snap-On tool catalogue.
Surely the true greatness of any engineering design is measured by its ability of its progeny to empower, enable, and inspire the individual as he makes use of it on his journey through life.
Not everyone has the financial good fortune to be able to house a 100,000 dollar car in his collection.
A ‘blue collar’ enthusiast for instance, may never hope to own a new $100,000 car - but some place down the line, he may just be able to reach up to buy and own a second hand C6Z06,
If he can do so, then he will know that in it, he has all that he needs to enable him to start out on that journey he has dreamt of.
With time and his skills he can make it all the car he wants it to be - a light weight 650 BHP ‘track iron‘, or a 1000 + BHP Drag Strip monster - or whatever combination of the two he desires to create.
The choice is his - it's a personal matter!
The car has the talent, and if he has the ability to unlock its secrets then the C6Z06, special car that it is, will let him have his way, and enable him to run with whatever is out there.
The C6Z06 is a truly great piece of design, primarily because of its ability to empower its owner.
It inspires and enables any individual who dares, by offering to him a soundly engineered facility with flair and ability in such measure as is necessary to give him the confidence to extend himself, and, thus, if he has the talent, to find a way to truly reach for the stars.
It is a design which says to the disciple in his quest for the ultimate automotive experience -
"Want to go fast, really fast? - well, if you’ve got what it takes, then so have I, and brother together we can make it happen!"
Well done Corvette!
Surely nothing is closer to the ethos of the American dream than that!
02-03-2014, 05:58 PM
#10
Burning Brakes
Just as the late 60's and very early 70's were the era of the big block, the last 8 years have been the era of the Big Inch Small Block.
I think we are now entering the era of the poweradder. F1 shows that you can get insane amounts of power out of very small displacements. I suspect that is the way of the future.
One of the reason I bought my Z is that I wanted to have an NA 427 as I didn't (and still don't) think that is going to happen ever again not withstanding a few Camaro Z28s.
I think we are now entering the era of the poweradder. F1 shows that you can get insane amounts of power out of very small displacements. I suspect that is the way of the future.
One of the reason I bought my Z is that I wanted to have an NA 427 as I didn't (and still don't) think that is going to happen ever again not withstanding a few Camaro Z28s.
02-03-2014, 07:37 PM
#12
Burning Brakes
Just as the late 60's and very early 70's were the era of the big block, the last 8 years have been the era of the Big Inch Small Block.
One of the reason I bought my Z is that I wanted to have an NA 427 as I didn't (and still don't) think that is going to happen ever again notwithstanding a few Camaro Z28s.
One of the reason I bought my Z is that I wanted to have an NA 427 as I didn't (and still don't) think that is going to happen ever again notwithstanding a few Camaro Z28s.
I agree
...... the very reason I bought my '09 CGM C6Z...no more 427's. I had a friends father in 1967 and 1969 who had big block 427's when I was 16; and he made a huge impression on me.
Those were just the preamble to the golden days of the muscle car we are in...
Oh that and the look on my brothers face at Christmas when they stopped by and I offered to take him to get groceries in the Z;
he didn't know i had one>>>heh heh...
He gave up on a Vette long ago (wife); his face said it all when we lit up the LS7....priceless.
Last edited by The_Raging_Bull; 02-03-2014 at 07:41 PM.
02-03-2014, 08:17 PM
#13
Drifting
I think we have the next collector's item waiting to happen. Give it 15 years and then watch Barrett Jackson or Mecum Auctions. The Z's will be well sought after, despite the issues. That may make it more appealing.
02-03-2014, 09:21 PM
#15
Burning Brakes
However moving 50 years into the future..who knows how many are left..and what they're worth...given the eco-weiners in the government and all the left wing loons. Glad to say I wont be here for what will have to be a true politically correct train wreck.
02-03-2014, 09:55 PM
#16
Team Owner
Same thing I thought...it's more like the ZR1 than the Z06 to me. IMO, GM just decided to call it a "Z06" rather than a "ZR1" because they didn't want alienate any potential buyers who may assume the car is out of their budget. They've really driven home the sentiments that while the car outperforms the C6ZR1, it supposed to more affordable than the C6ZR1.
02-04-2014, 12:27 AM
#17
Team Owner
I think the electronics and the lack of availability for replacement pieces with those are what is going to make the Z06 irrelevant in 50 years. I love my Z and I hope I'm wrong.
02-04-2014, 08:00 AM
#18
Same thing I thought...it's more like the ZR1 than the Z06 to me. IMO, GM just decided to call it a "Z06" rather than a "ZR1" because they didn't want alienate any potential buyers who may assume the car is out of their budget. They've really driven home the sentiments that while the car outperforms the C6ZR1, it supposed to more affordable than the C6ZR1.Do folks who buy cars like these really worry about gas consumption - I wonder?
Will the new car may affect ZR1 residuals - perhaps, perhaps not - who knows!
I always thought that the C6Z06 was the last and best of the line - and the C6ZR1 was the first development of the new.
I think the C7Z06 probably will outperform the C6ZR1 - we will have to wait for the usual 'faster round the Ring' hype in order to find out.
The new car may or may not be more powerful; however, I don't expect there will be much in it between the two, with regards to power at the wheels.
It is of course the new car's ability to better deploy to maximum effect whatever power it has available at the wheels that will probably make it faster than the ZR1.
That ability is a function of many variables - tyres, electronics - but I'm pretty sure too that most of the performance increase shown by C7 Z07 over the C6ZR1 the with regards to better track times will come about primarily because of the far greater attention to the aerodynamics of the new car.
One area where I feel C6Z06 owners miss out is the aerodynamics of the car offered by standard design package - for me there's far too much front end lift at speed!
I made my car much more stable, and much more to my liking, by fitting Katech's Aero kit and a World Challenge hood.
That kit, and a set of Michelin PSC tyres transformed the car for me - that's just first base with regards to improvments to the car
There’s the kick for me, of owning the C6Z06 - whilst it has sound fundamental dynamic qualities , the car has so much potential for development, and few other vehicle ‘aftermarkets’ are as well supported as is that for the Corvette Z06
There is a comprehensive array of well designed, high quality products available from talented suppliers.
You can make that change - you can do it yourself, take your time doing it, and end up with a car appropriately kitted out to suit your own particular inclinations.
Great fun
02-04-2014, 10:44 PM
#19
Burning Brakes
With the targeted average fleet MPG figures, forced induction, variable valve timing and cylinder deactivation, direct injection etc is the way forward.
The new Z06 is sure to be a beast, but I'll wait a decade to make sure GM didn't get it completely wrong before I go out and buy one. My faith in GM is... non existent.
The new Z06 is sure to be a beast, but I'll wait a decade to make sure GM didn't get it completely wrong before I go out and buy one. My faith in GM is... non existent.
02-04-2014, 11:01 PM
#20
Thats rich.....personally I bought the LS7 as the last 427 in a vette, not because I thought I'd save it and retire on it.
However moving 50 years into the future..who knows how many are left..and what they're worth...given the eco-weiners in the government and all the left wing loons. Glad to say I wont be here for what will have to be a true politically correct train wreck.
However moving 50 years into the future..who knows how many are left..and what they're worth...given the eco-weiners in the government and all the left wing loons. Glad to say I wont be here for what will have to be a true politically correct train wreck.
Heres a tip: when you start to hate something Obama does, or did, or is going to do, go take out your 427 C6Z and hit the redline a few times in 2nd. I promise you, no matter what Obama does, he wont take that away from you