djfury05

As the title states I'm having trouble with getting my ProCharged C6Z to start. I'm usually pretty good at figuring this stuff out but I'm at a loss. Prior to adding new parts the car had a cam, Fast 65 lb'ers and P1SC already. The car ran fine without any issues except all the the valve seals on the heads were toast from when previous owner installed BTR .660 springs and sent the tiny springs into the oil. So I've added WCCH Stage 2 heads, Johnson link bar lifters, custom Manton pushrods, Firecore50 wires, MightyMouse Solutions catch can, and ARH 1 7/8" headers & X pipe. I think that's it as far as engine stuff goes.

I got it all together tonight finally after being gone for over a month with training and it will not fire. I have verified fuel and spark by pulling #8 plug and it was covered in fuel and then I watched it arc to #8 header primary. I have not verified each cylinder for the same conditions yet. The spark plugs are used NGK TR6's from when they came out, they still looked good enough to use.

I tried swapping coils from drivers side to passenger side and nothing. I tried starting with MAF unplugged and nothing. The battery was on a tender for about an hour before starting and it had been unhooked for over a month prior to that. The motor has no problem turning over as I could verify the ProCharger spinning as I tried to fire it.

I have visually observed that the crank shaft position sensor is plugged in along with the camshaft position sensor. Map sensor and maf plugged in as well. All injectors plugs and coil plugs are plugged in.

The grounds above the starter appear to be connected properly. Large ground from block to chassis and starter ground to block I think. On drivers side there is a ground from harness to block as well a small braided one. I checked for missing grounds on the back of the heads and there were none. Are there any grounds that I am missing?

Right now I'm letting the battery charge more on the tender until the tender indicates green. While I was trying to start before it was indicating that the battery was half way, but I used a voltmeter on it and it was 12.64 while nuetral.

Any ideas?

Z0-SICK

Process of elimination. Work your way backwards removing each bolt on and you'll figure it out. It sucks but you'll spend equal or more time trouble shooting and guessing.

That's what I would do anyway.

bd4airman11

I would remove all the plugs, test every holes compression.....If you have fuel, spark, air & no start......you need at least 60p.s.i. to fire the mixture....

djfury05

Yes, this evening is the first time I have attempted to start it. I had most of the car together at the end of December minus custom length pushrods, then installing the rockers, valve covers etc. I had to travel to Arizona for training for my job for over a month and came back to finish putting the valve train stuff in.

The coils and coil harnesses themselves were not removed from their brackets. It is possible they are switched from their respective side (driver/passenger) but I did not see any indications of which side goes where. All the wire colors are the same, no striping or markings, no differences I could tell. I switched them earlier during troubleshooting as noted above and had the spark on #8 cylinder after the switch. I did not check for spark before the switching of the coil sets.

I do not have a code reader here. My buddy might come tomorrow with HP Tuners and see what he can log.

Upon depressing the clutch and hitting the ignition switch the starter will continue to turn as long as the clutch is held to the floor. Once I release the pedal the starter disengages. I do not need to continue to hold the ignition button to get it to do this, rather depress it until it turns and it'll continue.

Pushrod length was measured only about 1000x times. I ordered them from Tony Mamo and he wanted me to be sure they were absolutely correct and verified with dial calipers so I know the valves aren't being held open.

When I was removing the heads and starter some coolant from head removal dropped into the crankshaft position sensor's female plug. I used a shop vac to remove it all though and it was dry before the male end was inserted. I never touched the camshaft position sensor during the whole disassembly/reassembly.

djfury05

Yes I will keep it updated. I'm about to run to the store for new plugs just because and the battery has been on the tender all night and I'll jump it if I have to today.

I will take note of the indicators on the gauge cluster while starting today too and see what is illuminated.

Another note, when installing the mighty mouse catch can with the C6 Z06 bracket addition, it requires you to unplug the fuse box connectors and relocate lower beneath the bracket. They look to be connected properly and locked with the built in tab devices they have. All the lights work and car appears to function ad normal so I'm not thinking this is an issue. PCM was never touched.

Chiron

I agree. The same thing happened during my build. Turned out to be the wrong pushrod size. No compression.

djfury05

Zero compression.. pushrods too long. Custom Manton series 4 3/8" .095 wall 8.015 length. When rocker torqued spring compressed ever so slightly. Fu*k me.

Guess this is what happens when you have to leave for over a month and engine sits dry with no oil. When I measured PR length last week they were probably dry and skewed the length results. Pushrod checker came out to around 7.970-7.967 intakes and 7.966-7.963 exhausts. Ordered custom length through Tony Mamo and he added .050 preload for aluminum block saying preload would be more like .040 when hot and about right in the sweet spot for the Johnson shorter travel lifters 2126 SLR Axle oiling.

So now what.. motor has 7 quarts new oil in it. Should I just dump a quart of oil equally onto the lifters and then turn motor over a bunch with no pushrods to prime then re-measure? Pushrod Checker is Comp Cams Hi-Tech 7.800-8.800. I used my Brakemotive brake bleeder and modified it to prime the oil galleys last night but it didn't quite work perfectly. Oil went in but Idk if it made it to the top of the valvetrain or not.

So disappointed.. I must have measured PR length a million times by now. Checker length verified by dial caliper. Guessing PR's should be around 8.000" from how much springs moved. Ugh...

Mark2009

1. You don't need oil in the lifters to check PR length.

2. You need to check your PR length checker with a dial caliper. Subtract about .020 from reading for 'correct' PR length (not including preload).

3. If your 8.015 PR's are compressing the spring slightly when lifter is on base circle, you need shorter than 8.000... which is a pretty long PR, so am I correct in presuming that the Johnson lifters are shorter than OEM? (OEM PR is 7.800)

Mark2009

No.

No.

Not necessarily.

No.

djfury05

Answers above in red. At the current moment I am about to place an order for an oil priming tool from MDR Tuning running off 12v battery to ensure that everything is getting oiled and pumped up, then I'll re-measure PR length. Can't think of any other way to ensure this procedure is being done in the most precise method with the tools I have available.

rio95

What the heck are you talking about?? Pretty much everything you said here is incorrect.

djfury05

I appreciate everyone's including his replies nonetheless. Seems like pulling teeth around here to get replies to a technical discussion. Not the typical bronze vs. powdered guides thread so almost everyone is scared off lol.

rio95

I'll attempt to help you out by offering my opinion. I'm a firm believer that you don't need oil in the lifters to check pushrods length due to the fact there is a spring that pushes the plunger all the way up anyways so you should be able to find zero lash. I will say though that it does require a steady hand and is more prone to error than using a solid lifter. I just made sure to check 5 to 10 of them on my car to be confident. How many of us have a solid lifter or want to take the time to make one though ha?? Sounds like mark above agrees with this opinion.

Mark2009

You don't need oil in the engine, but knock yourself out (the lifter has a spring to keep the cup pushed up to the top).

Here's the correct procedure (assuming on base circle, and assuming lifter cup is at top of travel, not bound lower by dirt or debris):

1. Insert adjustable pushrod, adjusted to shorter than needed length.

2. Install rocker. Snug bolt w/wrench, but no need to torque.

3. Fishing your fingers of both hands underneath the rocker, slowly 'open up' the adj pushrod until there is no more or very little (.001 - .003) vertical play. This is zero lash. Don't get to pushing on the lifter, the spring inside holding the cup is rather small. A delicate touch is handy.

4. Remove pushrod, careful not to disturb 'turns', measure with dial caliper, subtract .020 (it's an industry thing), and that is your zero lash pushrod length. Add whatever preload you like, and order the result.

5. Measure the new pushrods when they arrive. If you ordered 8.000's they will be 8.020 (it's an industry thing). All is good.

Edit: you might want to play with a lifter and a pushrod beforehand, pushing in on the cup and getting a handle on how stiff the internal spring is. A little oil on the sliding surfaces would probably be a good idea too.

.

djfury05

Understood. I just find it hard to believe that not having oil during my initial dry measurements and now having oil and remeasuring after the motor turning over that my dry measurements were longer by .040 off or so. Two intakes I measured earlier were 7.909 and 7.910. Without oil they were 7.970-7.967 across all 8. Really don't know what to do at this point if what I have been doing has been correct? Maybe just tow to shop and let them figure it out as I am getting annoyed with looking at it lol.

rio95

When you say WITH oil what does that mean?? You let the lifters soak in oil or what? Since the car won't run I assume it wasn't to operating temp. Is it possible you were accidently compressing the lifter without oil when you thought it was at zero lash? That is the only explanation I can think of.

djfury05

Very well.

Lifters are brand new and so was oil so no dirt or debris should be keeping them bound up.

I have been inserting the pushrod close to or fully compressed into the hole for measurements. Well shorter than what is the needed for PR length. I have been doing exactly as you prescribe, but I may have been using a little too much effort with taking out the slop and therefore causing lifter to compress a bit. When I am removing the PR checker I make sure to keep one finger on the checker to ensure its not spinning and one on the rocker tip on valve stem to keep it from moving around and spinning the checker. It lifts itself off the PR checker and then I will remove it and pull the checker out carefully watching to see if it spins. Then take it right over to the dial caliper holding it where the two ends meet keeping it from spinning and being careful not to compress it with the dial caliper. Just ever so slightly touching and recording measurement.

Tony Mamo ordered these pushrods when I sent him the zero lash measurements. The packing slip says 8.015 STD. I measured when they arrived and they are 8.014. I do not know if he stated to them 7.995 when he ordered or not, since adding .020 would be 8.015.

Mark2009

Some shops don't know how to do it either

I suspect your finger tightening of the rocker bolt was compressing the lifter cup.

djfury05

By with oil I mean the engine had oil, 7 quarts. My initial measurements were taken when the motor had zero oil it in as I let it drip out for over a month while I was gone from having the tiny valve seal springs break apart and go through the engine. I got back, measured dry, ordered and received PR's, put PR's in and turned motor over, and some oil made it up to lifters by the looks of it.

It was not to operating temp no. It is possible I was compressing the lifter yes. Apparently this seems to be more than a delicate procedure that I am not capable of doing without error at this point.

Mark2009

That's a little weird... most mfrs use "gauge" length, which is .020 shorter than caliper length.