Michael_D

I am experimenting. Trying to dial out off-idle/low rpm, misfire events caused by reversion. Figured I'd at least try these multi-spark coil packs. I've had success with MSD ignition components in the past. I called MSD a few weeks ago, discussed internet reported coil pack failures with them. I was told they did have some manufacturing issues, and they have since resolved those issues. Unfortunately, that means they are now manufactured in China. Oh well, lot's of stuff is made in China, and lot's of it is high quality. I was also advised to use their wiring harness. The OE power supply conductor is, according to MSD, too small. The harness ties into direct battery voltage, and has a relay.

So I started to install the packs and run the wiring. Sonofabitch...... More damn connectors to deal with. More wiring orgies around the fuel rails. I hate messy wiring. I'm looking for suggestions from anyone who has installed this to see if there's a better way to rout these cables and the relay. The stupid relay also has exposed terminals, so I'll need to figure out how to shield them from water spray.

There's gotta be a better way. And yes, I know, there's nothing wrong with the OEM coil packs. Like I said, I'm experimenting.

Hib Halverson

First, let me say that sometimes, off-idle/low-speed misfire events due to aftermarket cam profiles can be "fixed" with a change to the ignition system but then–sometimes it cannot.

As for the MSD coils, I have had them on my '12 for about 14 months. Currently, I do not have an aftermarket cam in my LS7. I put the coils on to 1) plan for the future and 2) to try to understand why the product has gotten a "bad rap" in certain factions of the Corvette Internet community. There are a lot of Internet rumors about them, so, here's a little information:

Within a few years after the original version of MSD's "Blaster LS" ignition coils for GM Generation 3 and 4 Small-Block V8s came to market, they developed a reputation for poor reliability and durability. The new versions of MSD's Multiple Spark Coils (MSC) for various Gen 3s and 4 V8s are made in China. Considering those two situations in combination, you might wonder why I'd want to test that product. To answer that question, you, first, need some of the backstory.

MSD Performance, Inc., has been making ignition products since the early 1970s. Currently, they are the choice of most drag racers in the Pro classes, the choice of many NASCAR racers and are used in many other types of motorsports. As far as the grass roots racers and street high-performance users, MSD is likely the most popular brand of ignition parts. My experience with MSD products has been good. I've used its distributors, CD ignitions, coils, caps, rotors and plug wires in my '71 Big-Block hot rod since I built the car back in the 90s. My '95 ZR1 has MSD coils and wires. My other two Vettes use MSD Super Conductor plug wires. In 30 or so years of using MSD stuff, I've only had one problem and it was self-inflicted–a long time ago, I burned up a 6A CD ignition by–in a lapse of attention (Well…duh!)–reversing the power connections. Nevertheless, because of an inordinate amount of displeasure with MSD coils for Gen 3 and Gen 4 V8s being expressed on the Internet, up until just recently, I avoided using those products.

About a year ago, in an email discussion I had with Todd Ryden, a technical writer who specializes in ignition subjects and consults to MSD, I learned the reputation of the original versions of MSD's coils for LS-series engines was tainted because of problems MSD had with its first two suppliers. The first LS coils were designed in-house, but their manufacturing was out-sourced to an American company specializing in ignition parts. Turned out, that supplier was not only difficult with which to work, but it, also, failed to meet the quality goals MSD set. Finally, unable to make any progress with that supplier, MSD ended the relationship and–it wasn't pretty. MSD took its coil business to a second American manufacturer and the situation improved. Well–at least it did until the first supplier acquired the second supplier's business.

Awkward!

Turns out, the memory of MSD cutting ties was still a sore spot. As a result, friction, again, developed between MSD and its supplier and quality once again suffered. In the field, MSD's ordinarily good name was dragged though the mud of angry Internet forum posts maligning the reliability/durability of its coils for LS-series engines.

Needless to say, MSD had a real problem on its hands so, in mid-2011, it pulled the plug on the entire line of LS coils, then went back to the drawing board. It redesigned the product and went looking for its third new supplier. This time, MSD found a manufacturer in China. Ok–I know there are enthusiasts who are leery of parts for American cars from sources in Asia but the fact is, more Corvette parts than you think are sourced in Asia. Whether it's the USA, Germany, Japan or, well–China; there are good suppliers and crappy ones. MSD picked one of the top makers of ignition parts in Asia–one that supplies some American OEs.

After learning MSD's LS Coils had been redesigned and were being made by a new supplier, recalling my past good experiences with other MSD Performance ignition parts in nearly 30 years of modifying Corvettes for increased performance, I decided it was unlikely that MSD Performance would purposely continue to market a bad product. That's not what manufacturers do if they want to stay in business over the long haul.

In February of 2013, MSD relaunched these products as "Multiple Spark Coils" for the GM LS-engines. The coils had new part numbers so there would be no confusing the new versions with the discontinued models. Assuming that MSD's current Gen 3 and 4 coil engineering and manufacturing were now in the right track, in February of 2014, I agreed to test some of them.

The current MSD coil for GM's Gen 4 V8s is unique in that it is "multiple sparking" up to about 3000-RPM. Similar in concept to the company's "multiple spark discharge" (now you know where "MSD" comes from) CD ignition amplifiers, these coils actually spark several times per power stroke as the engine runs at lower RPM. The advantage of multiple sparks is improved idle stability and low speed operation with engines having radical aftermarket cams or even LS7s with stock cams. Multiple sparks can lessen problems with misfire at idle. How does MSD accomplish a multiple sparking, inductive ignition coil? The specifics are proprietary to MSD Performance, LLC. All I know is that, inside each coil, is a printed circuit board which contains the necessary electronics to generate multiple sparks.

On a C6 Z06, the specific MSD Multiple Spark Coil Set I'm testing is PN 82878, which MSD sells for LS2 and 7 engines but may, also, fit LS3 and 9s. Their maximum potential is 40,000 volts and they have a peak current output of 124-milliamps. For comparison, the stock GM coil used on an LS7 can put out 38,000V and a peak current of 108-mA. I'm using them with MSD Super Conductor plug wires and Denso Iridium Power IT-22 plugs gapped at .055-in. The more powerful coils and plug wires with lower resistance may allow one to open up the plug gaps by an additional .010-in. The coil installation is simple and doesn't take long, You unbolt the coil assemblies, change out the coils then reinstall the coil assemblies on the engine.

To get the best results out of any of the MSD coils for GM Gen 3 and Gen 4 V8s, MSD recommends the 12V power feeds to the coils be at least 16-ga wire which is, nominally, 0.051-in. or 1.29-mm. in diameter. Because most OE coil wiring harnesses have 20-ga. (0.32-in/0.81-mm) power feeds to the coils, in most applications MSD's "LS Coil Upgrade Harness" (PN 88867) is required. This wiring harness upgrades the coil power feed wires from 20-ga to 14-ga. The LS Upgrade Harness is "plug-and-play" and connects the stock coil power feeds to a relay. When the ignition is turned on, the relay closes and connects battery voltage to the coils through 14-ga (064-in/1.63-mm) wire. This harness prevents any problems with low voltage to the ignition coils which sometimes cause ECM fault codes to set. With the coils, I also installed that upgrade wiring harness.

The stock LS7 coil is pretty darn good as far as performance. Any stock LS7 or even engines modified to 600-horsepower or so, will probably run ok with OE coils. Where MSD multiple sparking coils might be an advantage is on an engine with an aftermarket cam which is misfiring at idle due to exhaust reversion during the overlap period in an engine with an aftermarket cam and, for whatever reasons, the user wants the idle to be more smooth. The other application for the MSD 82878 is an modified engine which makes a lot more cylinder pressure such as a high-boost, supercharged application or an engine running nitrous oxide injection. In those two situations, the MSD coil's higher output voltage and ability to supply more current would be an advantage.

The installation of the MSD coils and the LS Upgrade Wiring harness is simple, can be accomplished with basic tools and takes a few hours.

I've had a set of these coils on my 2012 Z06 for about 14 months and, so far, they've been trouble-free. A little over a year in service seems to discredit the idea that MSD coils fail regularly and quickly.

Finally, an ascetic note. The bright red MSD coils look so good on my engine, I've permanently removed and stored the OE plastic engine covers.

Hope that helps.

atljar

Awesome post and information Hib. I had no idea the refinement MSD had gone through with the coils. I personally had some really bad experiences with the old MSD LSx coils and swore I would never use them again. I still likely wont based on their handling of the situation, but nice to see they may have made improvements where it mattered

Michael_D

Great information Hib!

Got them all wired up. Dealt with the new bundle of wires best I could. Tucked the little bundle of connectors joys between the fuel rails and valve covers, as there was no where else to put them. The relay I just used some 3M Velcro and stuck the bastard on the fire wall under the filter, ran some wire shield, soldered the connections and ran it to the bat post.

Took her out for a spin, logging data. Idle fuel trims were the best I've ever seen them - Zero LTFT, both banks. Idle does not smell as bad either (and I have already adjusted EOIT to improve upon that pleasant aroma). LTFT's at idle were usually between 5 and 7. They were in the weeds light cruising in fifth and sixth. Re-calibrated MAF a bit, brought trims back in line. I can't really "feel" a difference. The low RPM misfire is still there between about 1500 and 2200, fifth gear. That's always been the troublesome area for this engine. I'm just going to have to resign to the fact that there's too much cam to get rid of it completely. I do have a NW102 coming. Doubt that will help, but I'm in experimentation mode now. Might try to get Hib to write a DIY how to article if I can ever get this angry beast dialed in the way I want it.

Wish the coils were black. Too lazy to paint them.....

Hib Halverson

Ok.
I better understand why you were having trouble with the MSD harness.

You have relocated coils and a different fuel rail.

My engine has coils in the stock location and an OE fuel rail. With that configuration, I found "hiding" the MSD harness was fairly easy.

double06

Like what you did with all the PCV hosing and other lines.

MTIRC6Z

DAMN you Michael

So now you got me thinking about doing this!

I've mentioned to you before that while I have no misfires, very light throttle below 1500 in 1st and 2nd gear causes a lot of surging, nothing I can't 'drive around' but it sure challenges my wife. Do you think the MSD coils would make my wife happier? Happy enough to get her to PAY for them

Cheers, Paul.

PS. You've done a nice job under the hood but I am surprised you still have the stock oil tank...ARE makes a real nice piece that actually weighs 5 lbs less than the stock tank which helps offset the weight of the additional 3qu of oil it contains.

MTIRC6Z

Geez I hope MSD is compensating you because you certainly did an excellent job of getting their 'story' out there. I for one would never have considered using their coils had you not provided the long explanation of what happened. Don't get me wrong here, IF you got compensated I am not being critical, they NEED to get that 'story' out there and doing so is likely to cost something, certainly it cost you a fair bit of your time to type that all out.

As far as the 'story' goes, what's ironic is my basic attitude was that I wouldn't buy the MSD coils because they were lousy and the reason for that was obvious, MSD has sold out and gone with Chinese production. Imagine my surprise when I learn that what made the quality of the coil lousy what NOT going to China for production

Back in the day (early 90s) I relied on MSD products to get my a$$ into the 7s and 170 with my street bike. Given the size of the carbs I had to run on that bike, MSD was what made the bike useable at low speeds...so I'm familiar with the concept and hoping they might help with my Z06 which has 18 degrees of cam overlap.

Cheers, Paul.

Michael_D

Thanks. I plan to carry on with the AN hose work as I get time. I hate plastic lines and rubber hoses....

Honestly, no.... I have that same problem, before the MSD coil packs, and still now. I think the cam you are running is pretty close to what I am. It's not pleasant to drive putting through town in second or third gear, revs under 2500. It's a constant clutch/throttle/shift thing.

I don't road race or track the car, so I haven't felt the need to swap out the oil tank. The next thing to do that's on the list, is to swap out the radiator. I may pull the engine this fall too. Not sure yet. Depends on other projects I have on the list.

MTIRC6Z

Wow, thanks for the honesty, I was very close to pulling the trigger on that purchase, glad I waited to hear back from you. I had a feeling I was engaged in some wishful thinking...frankly if I don't want a surging issue I should just go drive my V.

I put a Ron Davis rad in my Z years ago, also have significantly more oil cooling, so much so that I needed to put a thermostat in the system. Also combined the bigger oil cooler with a revised oiling system (tapped into the oil gallery on the side of the block just under cylinder #1) that included a Canton Racing in-line filter.

Cheers, Paul.

Hib Halverson

I cheated.

Since it so happens that "Michael_D" and I run the exact same ignition coil set-up, a good part of what is in the OP is adapted from a product review I wrote for another web site in the summer of last year. It only took me 15 minutes or so to re-edit it then add a little new content and post it.

I did not get compensated by MSD.

The review was part of the product evaluation program I have going with that other web site.

I have used MSD ignition components since before I became a technical "writer". MSD products have already performed well for me. I've also had good experiences with their customer service.

That said, as good as my past experiences had been with MSD stuff, up until about the beginning of 2014, I had been cautious about any of their coils for Gen 3/4 V8s because of the reputation they developed due to MSD's unfortunate choice of suppliers.

Todd Ryden, who wrote a great book on performance igntion stuff a few years back, is a long-time pal of mine. He told me at the end of 2013 that MSD had re-introduced those coils and, after he gave me a little insight to the backstory, I decided to grit my teeth and try a set. I've had 'em on my '12 for more than a year and, from a reliability/durability standpoint, they have worked flawlessly.

Since my engine is not modified that much, I'll leave it to the people here with more radical engines to comment on the performance of those coils in applications where the OE coils are inadequate.

Pride & Joy

Many thanks to both Michael D and Hib Halverson for the informative posts. I too have used MSD products for years in other applications with great results. Since these LS7 engines spend a good time operating on the street at low RPMs (under 3K), I figured the MSD coils would be a great opportunity to increase low RPM efficiency and drivability. Previous reading of the overwhelmingly unfavorable internet reports regarding these coils has made me shy away from trying them. Now, it seems like more and more favorable experiences are slowly trickling in. I think I'll try a set when I do the head/cam thing in the near future.

Michael D - sorry to hear these didn't fix your "miss", but it sounds like you're now experiencing greater "fueling efficiency" indicated by your LFTs, etc. Is my interpretation correct? Did you see any corresponding increase in fuel mileage or "drivability" improvement (other than the RPMs you mention that caused you to try this in the first place)?

Michael_D

I don't have a definitive answer yet. Something changed though. I also data logged VE with MAF disabled, but AFR Error on the VE map did not change. I'm kinda scratching my head wondering why MAF would have changed so much. I had to raise the Low Freq table cells between 2500hz and 3500hz just shy of 10%. I need to review the logs some more to figure that out. As far as MPG, I don't pay much attention to it. The instant shows about 26mpg in fifth, 2000 rpm, and spark is roughly 36 deg in this range.

One thing for certain though, idle is better, and I have not touched idle air or adaptive spark. So if someone running a lumpy cam and is having trouble with idle, after doing all they can with air and spark, these little buggers may very well help. Actually, I'm pretty confident they will, based on what I see.

I'm also wondering if I should screw around with dwell time, or open the gap up a bit. I may play around with that next weekend. I'm using NGK TR7IX plugs, gap at .050

rob20rx7

I have been using MSD LS Coil set up with the Harness and its been running fine. Made good power on the dyno with no issues. I did however have issues without the harness when I first got the coils. I defiantly recommend to get the harness.

Michael_D

Did you play with dwell or gap? What plugs are you using?

As an FYI to anyone - when I got the coil packs, they come with two pin plugs with jumper wires that are installed in the coil packs. I guess some LS applications have two leads to each coil... If you do not install these little plugs, the coils will not fire (haven't tried this, but that's what the instructions say). When I got the coils, five of the eight plugs did not have pins or jumper wires installed, and I did not have weather tight pins that size, so I couldn't make up the jumper. I did not notice this till I was installing them on a weekend. So, I called MSD the next Monday, and they ended up sending me eight more of the plugs with jumper wires installed. Moral of story, open the box and inspect what you get, right away. Kinda sucks getting in the middle of a project to find out you have to put in hold to get the correct parts.

JohnRR

This seems to be the norm when installing after-market parts. Parts don't always fit like the stock parts did, parts are missing, or parts are damaged But we keep trying anyway!

John

S.C. vette

Bump the tread, a good topic!

Hib Halverson

I contributed to this tread a while back. Thought I'd report in. I continue to use the MSD LS7 coil installation I did more than a year ago. I also installed MSD's accessory wiring harness which draws power direct from the battery. The system has been dead-nuts reliable since it was installed in February of 2014. Since then I've run car dozens of times on Westech's Superflow chassis dyno and made a whole s**t-load of 1500-7000 rpm runs uphill in 3rd gear for WOT calibration work.

As for spark plugs I've used both the Denso IT-22 and the IT-24. Have gone back to the IT-22 because its tip is projected and puts the start of the flame-front more towards the center of the chamber.

Michael_D

They have been working just fine for me as well.

Lerxst

Hi guys.
Couldn't have been a more appropriate thread as I performed my search on coil packs, etc..
Can I ask a few questions?
I have a 2013 427 (LS7). Current mods as follows.

American Racing headers/xpipe/high flow cats.
Halltech SuperBee CAI
Custom tune
MGW short throw shifter

Winter mods
Cam (Lingenfelter GT19)
Engine "dress up" i.e remove the ugly plastic coil pack/fuel rail covers and replace with following:
Proform Black crinkle finish
Coil pack relocation kit
MSD wires
Fuel rails (billet red - car is torch red) Aeromotive. Holley doesn't make direct OEM replacement for LS7 yet (I called them).
160 deg. thermostat? Any benefit?
Leaving stock intake

Michael it looks like I am describing something close to your set up (which looks great!). The only difference being I am going to paint, however, the letters red on the Proform valve covers (again to match my Torch Red 427).
My questions are.
Did you use the bracket from Proform for relocating the coils (MSD 82878's)?
What MSD spark plug wire kit (P/N?) do I use for this set up?
What fuel rails are you using?

If I PM you my phone number can we go over this in greater detail (exact parts, etc...?
Hib. You are an INCREDIBLE source of knowledge also. Love to speak with you as well!
Thanks so much in advance.
Steve -