[Z06] Purchase Recommendations: Z06 for LSX 427 Build
08-22-2016, 05:51 PM
#21
08-22-2016, 06:06 PM
#22
Team Owner
2009 as they got the majority of the driveline improvements done to the Z06 by then(because of the 2009 ZR1 shared components).
After 2009, nothing done to increase the strength of the driveline. You can buy a later year car, but it will be more expensive and you won't gain anything but some additional weight.
After 2009, nothing done to increase the strength of the driveline. You can buy a later year car, but it will be more expensive and you won't gain anything but some additional weight.
08-22-2016, 06:21 PM
#23
Team Owner
I wouldn't go much over 700-750rwhp on pump gas. Even that is pushing it IMO.
Even bone stock 06 drivetrain is fine for 1000+hp with addition of $200 c5 axles. So don't worry about the later year upgrades for "stronger drivetrain". Mag ride is definitely worth it if you can swing it, everything else is minor.
Even bone stock 06 drivetrain is fine for 1000+hp with addition of $200 c5 axles. So don't worry about the later year upgrades for "stronger drivetrain". Mag ride is definitely worth it if you can swing it, everything else is minor.
08-22-2016, 06:50 PM
#24
I wouldn't go much over 700-750rwhp on pump gas. Even that is pushing it IMO.
Even bone stock 06 drivetrain is fine for 1000+hp with addition of $200 c5 axles. So don't worry about the later year upgrades for "stronger drivetrain". Mag ride is definitely worth it if you can swing it, everything else is minor.
Even bone stock 06 drivetrain is fine for 1000+hp with addition of $200 c5 axles. So don't worry about the later year upgrades for "stronger drivetrain". Mag ride is definitely worth it if you can swing it, everything else is minor.
700RWHP on pump gas street tune.
If methanol was added and tune adjusted, how much could HP change without changing pulley's? 50-75hp?
08-22-2016, 07:09 PM
#25
Team Owner
Depends on how aggressive tune and many factors. At that level, possibly 80-100rwhp with addition of meth. Then again, swapping pullies is a 15 minute job so why should it matter?
08-23-2016, 09:40 AM
#26
Then you go and say this.....
You've lost credibility points.
08-23-2016, 10:05 AM
#27
No reason for an iron block, none whatsoever at your power level....
I'd give ERL or R.E.D. a call and see if they have any short blocks that have had the liners replaced collecting dust. Start there.
Problem with building a boosted engine, or sprayed engine, is the tendency to keep adding boost and spray after you get used to what you got.
I would most likely just swap out the whole rotating assembly. The crank and rods are hell for stout, but you are getting into a grey area at 800hp.
If I were in the market for a car, I'd be looking at the newer models. Not sure which year Mag ride was added, but I'd start with that model year. In fact, I'm researching to find out exactly what is involved with adding it to my 08. There are numerous other creature comforts that have been added to the Z's over the years as well. Make sure you find out what they are, and if you might want them or if you just don't care. Some folks do, I do....
I'd give ERL or R.E.D. a call and see if they have any short blocks that have had the liners replaced collecting dust. Start there.
Problem with building a boosted engine, or sprayed engine, is the tendency to keep adding boost and spray after you get used to what you got.
I would most likely just swap out the whole rotating assembly. The crank and rods are hell for stout, but you are getting into a grey area at 800hp.
If I were in the market for a car, I'd be looking at the newer models. Not sure which year Mag ride was added, but I'd start with that model year. In fact, I'm researching to find out exactly what is involved with adding it to my 08. There are numerous other creature comforts that have been added to the Z's over the years as well. Make sure you find out what they are, and if you might want them or if you just don't care. Some folks do, I do....
That's the route I'd go if I wanted that added to my 06'.
To OP - yeah just find a newer Z06 with a blower on it or really just buy a ZR1 instead - it's a better street car anyways.
Last edited by fueledpassion; 08-23-2016 at 10:07 AM.
08-23-2016, 10:11 AM
#28
But as it stands, I'd have to be coerced into letting this one go. There will always be plenty of newer model Z06's, Hellcats, GT500's etc that have heavy, smooth riding platforms with a blower on them.
Very few cars are still going the way of the C6Z, which is a lightweight, NA alternative that still runs bottom 11's in stock form. Not many cars do this even with a blower on top. Let's not even talk about tracking the car...with the exception of the C7 Z06 hot lap and the Viper, there aren't any muscle/sports cars in the $50-80K range that offer similar track performance and there isn't a car in the $30-40K that can compete unless it is another C6Z06 or a well-modified Grand Sport.
Last edited by fueledpassion; 08-23-2016 at 10:14 AM.
08-23-2016, 10:35 AM
#29
Team Owner
On straight out pump gas, anything over ~750ish just becomes riskier and riskier. I wouldn't run a 427 LSX motor up past those power levels and expect it to live a long life. Add some octane and sure, make 1000+ all day, but pump gas and 750+ just don't mix well.
08-23-2016, 11:14 AM
#30
This brings us back to the exact same issue.
If your going to build a daily driver 700RWHP car which operates on pump gas and be required to change the pistons and sleeve the cylinder, then you might as well change the rods. At that point you might as well go with a blueprinted ERL dry sleeve short block....
Then you get into, $6k for an aluminum dry sleeve or $7.5k for an LSX 6 bolt. Obviously the 6 bolt requires new heads, but if your going to rework the stock heads then what difference does it make.
The LSX would allow "flexibility" to never look back if methanol, E85 or additional boost comes into the picture...
Maybe the most appropriate thing, if your buying a 100% stock car, look at an LSX... If you find a already modded car with decent H/C/I/E, just look at the basic aluminum short block as you could reuse most of the already upgraded parts...
If your going to build a daily driver 700RWHP car which operates on pump gas and be required to change the pistons and sleeve the cylinder, then you might as well change the rods. At that point you might as well go with a blueprinted ERL dry sleeve short block....
Then you get into, $6k for an aluminum dry sleeve or $7.5k for an LSX 6 bolt. Obviously the 6 bolt requires new heads, but if your going to rework the stock heads then what difference does it make.
The LSX would allow "flexibility" to never look back if methanol, E85 or additional boost comes into the picture...
Maybe the most appropriate thing, if your buying a 100% stock car, look at an LSX... If you find a already modded car with decent H/C/I/E, just look at the basic aluminum short block as you could reuse most of the already upgraded parts...
Last edited by ckassen; 08-23-2016 at 11:18 AM.
08-23-2016, 11:31 AM
#31
Well, all of these are fairly expensive approaches except the one where buying a H/C Z06 already modded out or a mostly stock, D-1SC C6 Z06 setup.
Personally, I can think of two other avenues that can make this car compete with 700-900rwhp setups of other automakers and do it with significantly less horsepower.
1) If money were no object, I might would consider a tall deck block and strive for maybe a 481 or even a 502 configuration... 700rwhp shouldn't be an issue at that point on pump fuel but gas mileage would indeed suck for a street car, lol. I realize that isn't a concern though. Not many people have done this many cubes in an LS power plant so this would be a more novel approach than the others. Practical? No. Cool? YES. And probably just as fun (if not more fun) than the other approaches and you could easily build the block to handle a little bit of NOS if you just needed something else down the road.
2) Put 3.73 or the perfect 3.90 gears in the car w/ the Quaife upgrade. As long as you plan to shut down the race by 185mph and you aren't into the 1 mile runs, this is a very viable option that will most likely dominate those GTR's and Supra's at comparable power levels. This car can easily do 9's with the right setup on motor, good tire and driver mod at horsepower levels around 600rwhp. Put the 3.90's in there, and you have a bottom to mid 9 second car with a typical H/C/I/E setup putting out 580-620rwhp, again --> driver mod included. I think bolt-on's only and 3.90's would get 90% of us into a 10.40-10.50 territory after some practice. That's fast for a relatively mildly modded car. I know you aren't drag racing the car but for the sake of comparing numbers, I threw a few out there to give you an idea. While the car won't top out at crazy speeds, are you ever planning to go beyond 185mph on the street? Honestly, I think a 600rwhp Z w/ 3.90's will get it's point across long before you hit 185mph.
I want to stress the need to redirect the focus away from total horsepower, too. You get so much more out of the C6Z that other cars in this price range won't touch. Sure, the GTR will give you outright performance on the track like the Z, but without the feedback. The car won't "talk to you" like a Corvette does. It will go. It will be consistent. But it won't be the same.
Personally, I can think of two other avenues that can make this car compete with 700-900rwhp setups of other automakers and do it with significantly less horsepower.
1) If money were no object, I might would consider a tall deck block and strive for maybe a 481 or even a 502 configuration... 700rwhp shouldn't be an issue at that point on pump fuel but gas mileage would indeed suck for a street car, lol. I realize that isn't a concern though. Not many people have done this many cubes in an LS power plant so this would be a more novel approach than the others. Practical? No. Cool? YES. And probably just as fun (if not more fun) than the other approaches and you could easily build the block to handle a little bit of NOS if you just needed something else down the road.
2) Put 3.73 or the perfect 3.90 gears in the car w/ the Quaife upgrade. As long as you plan to shut down the race by 185mph and you aren't into the 1 mile runs, this is a very viable option that will most likely dominate those GTR's and Supra's at comparable power levels. This car can easily do 9's with the right setup on motor, good tire and driver mod at horsepower levels around 600rwhp. Put the 3.90's in there, and you have a bottom to mid 9 second car with a typical H/C/I/E setup putting out 580-620rwhp, again --> driver mod included. I think bolt-on's only and 3.90's would get 90% of us into a 10.40-10.50 territory after some practice. That's fast for a relatively mildly modded car. I know you aren't drag racing the car but for the sake of comparing numbers, I threw a few out there to give you an idea. While the car won't top out at crazy speeds, are you ever planning to go beyond 185mph on the street? Honestly, I think a 600rwhp Z w/ 3.90's will get it's point across long before you hit 185mph.
I want to stress the need to redirect the focus away from total horsepower, too. You get so much more out of the C6Z that other cars in this price range won't touch. Sure, the GTR will give you outright performance on the track like the Z, but without the feedback. The car won't "talk to you" like a Corvette does. It will go. It will be consistent. But it won't be the same.
Last edited by fueledpassion; 08-23-2016 at 11:35 AM.
08-23-2016, 12:08 PM
#32
Team Owner
This brings us back to the exact same issue.
If your going to build a daily driver 700RWHP car which operates on pump gas and be required to change the pistons and sleeve the cylinder, then you might as well change the rods. At that point you might as well go with a blueprinted ERL dry sleeve short block....
Then you get into, $6k for an aluminum dry sleeve or $7.5k for an LSX 6 bolt. Obviously the 6 bolt requires new heads, but if your going to rework the stock heads then what difference does it make.
The LSX would allow "flexibility" to never look back if methanol, E85 or additional boost comes into the picture...
Maybe the most appropriate thing, if your buying a 100% stock car, look at an LSX... If you find a already modded car with decent H/C/I/E, just look at the basic aluminum short block as you could reuse most of the already upgraded parts...
If your going to build a daily driver 700RWHP car which operates on pump gas and be required to change the pistons and sleeve the cylinder, then you might as well change the rods. At that point you might as well go with a blueprinted ERL dry sleeve short block....
Then you get into, $6k for an aluminum dry sleeve or $7.5k for an LSX 6 bolt. Obviously the 6 bolt requires new heads, but if your going to rework the stock heads then what difference does it make.
The LSX would allow "flexibility" to never look back if methanol, E85 or additional boost comes into the picture...
Maybe the most appropriate thing, if your buying a 100% stock car, look at an LSX... If you find a already modded car with decent H/C/I/E, just look at the basic aluminum short block as you could reuse most of the already upgraded parts...
$6k ERL superdeck block is not needed for that level
$7.5k is fairly low for a stout LSX block. Mine was ~$8800
I don't get the "might as well change the rods" idea. Stock rods are good for 1000hp, are light weight, work great with factory crank. Aftermarket rods are significantly heavier, and then require a lot of heavy metal to balance the crank.
Now if you want to build for 1000hp later, then yes, do sleeved block with complete aftermarket rotating assembly, and just sell your stock short block. But if you just want pump gas, 700-800hp, your never going to exceed the limits of the stock rods, crank, and if tune is good, stock block. Plenty of stock block/crank/rods LS7s with good pistons making 1000+hp.
If you found a basic HCI z06, odds are they are not going to be boost friendly anyways, as most HCI go aggressive on cam, possibly mill heads, etc.
FYI, most my car ever made on pure pump was 911rwhp. I wouldn't trust it here. I think ~100-110rwhp/L is push the limits of pump gas. With added octane you can do whatever you want, but you will be octane limited.
My car made 911rwhp on pure pump, 1200 on pump+meth, and 1200 on e85. Only thing is, I wouldnt trust it at all to last on pump alone. Just did it to make sure if the meth kit died tune was still decent. Its just too risky to make 800+ on pump IMO. Now if you want to push it yourself, go for it, but when there are so many easy to add options to add a huge safety margin (torco, meth, e85, racefuel, etc) why even risk it?
08-23-2016, 12:22 PM
#33
There is no f'ing way I'd push the OE rods to 1000 hp. How in the hell can you make such outlandish declarations? I wouldn't even take the crank that high, and I have a lot more confidence in it than the rods. But I suppose I should admit that I guarantee my work.
If an idiot does something stupid and lives to talk about it, it doesn't make it less stupid.
If an idiot does something stupid and lives to talk about it, it doesn't make it less stupid.
08-23-2016, 01:00 PM
#34
Safety Car
There is no f'ing way I'd push the OE rods to 1000 hp. How in the hell can you make such outlandish declarations? I wouldn't even take the crank that high, and I have a lot more confidence in it than the rods. But I suppose I should admit that I guarantee my work.
If an idiot does something stupid and lives to talk about it, it doesn't make it less stupid.
If an idiot does something stupid and lives to talk about it, it doesn't make it less stupid.
08-23-2016, 01:20 PM
#35
Team Owner
I've seen plenty of stock rod stock crank cars make 1000+. Never seen a failure. People have asked time and time again for a LS7 rod failure, and no one has found the limit yet. I don't consider it outlandish when it happens time and time again. ZR1 rods are basically same thing, Ti rods and people are making 1200-1300rwhp on them.
Local shop owner is building a stock Ti rod, stock block car for 1200+. He has a ton of Ti rod cars make well over a 1000. So everything I've seen says 1000hp is no problem for stock rod car.
Local shop owner is building a stock Ti rod, stock block car for 1200+. He has a ton of Ti rod cars make well over a 1000. So everything I've seen says 1000hp is no problem for stock rod car.
08-23-2016, 02:04 PM
#36
Safety Car
Easy Mike. I trust you whole hearted, but his context was clear and correct.
But I suppose I should admit that I guarantee my work.
Never seen anything making that much HP guaranteed. We get built factory motors then boost the crap out of them on dry ice, and even then the best built motors do not always make it off the dyno.
08-23-2016, 02:27 PM
#37
Team Owner
It all comes down to budget. Spend the money wisely. Is doing a sleeved block better, yes. Are aftermarket billet rods better and a higher safety margin, yes. Would I get either if it meant skimping on fuel system, or drive train, or other important parts for a 800rwhp build? Nope.
$20k won't go very far if your goal is truely a really reliable 800+ daily driver. There are better places to spend money. Now if you want to over build for 1000+ later then say that, but pump gas will limit your power output.
Figure $7k on power adder, $3k on fuel system, $2500 for heads/cam, $1000+ for cooling, $1500-2000 for clutch, $1500 headers, then add drivetrain, sensors, tuning, etc.
That is ~$17k without touching the bottom end, and assuming all labor/etc yourself. Also doesn't touch wheels/tires/suspension/etc to hook that power.
$20k won't go very far if your goal is truely a really reliable 800+ daily driver. There are better places to spend money. Now if you want to over build for 1000+ later then say that, but pump gas will limit your power output.
Figure $7k on power adder, $3k on fuel system, $2500 for heads/cam, $1000+ for cooling, $1500-2000 for clutch, $1500 headers, then add drivetrain, sensors, tuning, etc.
That is ~$17k without touching the bottom end, and assuming all labor/etc yourself. Also doesn't touch wheels/tires/suspension/etc to hook that power.
08-23-2016, 02:41 PM
#38
im not sure I understand a lot of this thread. Trying to learn though just like the OP
why is 700hp max on pump gas? If you put low comp pistons and up the boost would pump gas do just fine?
What is needed for cooling at the 800hp power level that the power adder kit doesn't come with?
Ive always thought 750hp was pushing the limit of stock rods/block. Just basing that on threads ive read on here over the past year or so.
why is 700hp max on pump gas? If you put low comp pistons and up the boost would pump gas do just fine?
What is needed for cooling at the 800hp power level that the power adder kit doesn't come with?
Ive always thought 750hp was pushing the limit of stock rods/block. Just basing that on threads ive read on here over the past year or so.
08-23-2016, 03:14 PM
#39
Team Owner
Stock pistons, not stock rods. Stock block is good for more.
Octane will limit it to a certain cylinder pressure/dynamic compression. Lowering compression will allow more boost, but boost just adds to that. So your just trading off. I'm sure Michael D will be able to explain it better than me. Octane and fuel will limit the cylinder pressure to a certain level before it predetonates. That can be from having 14:1 compression, or 5:1 compression and 30psi of boost. 91-93 octane gas will only support so much. Like I said earlier, ~100-110rwhp per liter is pushing the limits of pump fuel.
As for limits, that can be a whole different discussion. There isn't some set "limit". There are reduced safety factors, and some shop/people are willing to trade off safety for power. At a certain point, there is a limit, but saying "750hp" is a ls7 limit is silly when there are bone stock ones making 800-1000rwhp. Are they as safe as the 750rwhp cars, nope, note even close. For those owners that maybe a fair trade. As you add power your reduce your safety margin. Even some stock motors blow up at 505hp. I've pushed stock ls3s to 800-810rwhp time and time again, and stock ls7s to ~700-750. With pistons I would have no issue pushing a forged piston stock rod stock crank stock block ls7 into the 800-900rwhp range assuming good fuel is used.
The recent (<10 years or so) addition of stuff like meth injection, e85 have now made 800+rwhp setups common, while 15 years ago that was not happening on pump gas unless it was a big nasty high dollar motor/build.
Can you build a 1000hp pump gas LS car? Sure, it is possible. Great heads, cam, lots of tricks, money, etc. Of all the shops I talk to, ~700-750 is about the limit any of them feel comfortable pushing on pump gas, and even then they will tell you that can be risky, and you should add octane if you are going to beat on it.
Radiator, fans, heat management, coating, etc. Then again that depends on where you live and conditions. If you never drive the car over 85F then no cooling upgrades would be needed.
Octane will limit it to a certain cylinder pressure/dynamic compression. Lowering compression will allow more boost, but boost just adds to that. So your just trading off. I'm sure Michael D will be able to explain it better than me. Octane and fuel will limit the cylinder pressure to a certain level before it predetonates. That can be from having 14:1 compression, or 5:1 compression and 30psi of boost. 91-93 octane gas will only support so much. Like I said earlier, ~100-110rwhp per liter is pushing the limits of pump fuel.
As for limits, that can be a whole different discussion. There isn't some set "limit". There are reduced safety factors, and some shop/people are willing to trade off safety for power. At a certain point, there is a limit, but saying "750hp" is a ls7 limit is silly when there are bone stock ones making 800-1000rwhp. Are they as safe as the 750rwhp cars, nope, note even close. For those owners that maybe a fair trade. As you add power your reduce your safety margin. Even some stock motors blow up at 505hp. I've pushed stock ls3s to 800-810rwhp time and time again, and stock ls7s to ~700-750. With pistons I would have no issue pushing a forged piston stock rod stock crank stock block ls7 into the 800-900rwhp range assuming good fuel is used.
The recent (<10 years or so) addition of stuff like meth injection, e85 have now made 800+rwhp setups common, while 15 years ago that was not happening on pump gas unless it was a big nasty high dollar motor/build.
Can you build a 1000hp pump gas LS car? Sure, it is possible. Great heads, cam, lots of tricks, money, etc. Of all the shops I talk to, ~700-750 is about the limit any of them feel comfortable pushing on pump gas, and even then they will tell you that can be risky, and you should add octane if you are going to beat on it.
Radiator, fans, heat management, coating, etc. Then again that depends on where you live and conditions. If you never drive the car over 85F then no cooling upgrades would be needed.
Last edited by Unreal; 08-23-2016 at 03:26 PM.
08-23-2016, 04:05 PM
#40
Melting Slicks
So maybe getting back on track.
I would suggest you buy a car that has several of the upgrades done already. IE full bolt on car with some driveline upgrades. You will save some cash this way. With that said, Ive been thinking of selling mine that fits this profile. HA!
I would suggest you buy a car that has several of the upgrades done already. IE full bolt on car with some driveline upgrades. You will save some cash this way. With that said, Ive been thinking of selling mine that fits this profile. HA!