[Z06] Powershift vs. Granny-shift
08-29-2016, 10:58 PM
#41
Le Mans Master
Last edited by Pb82 Ronin; 08-29-2016 at 11:00 PM.
09-02-2016, 02:58 PM
#42
Since I'll need a timing retard box anyways for when I put the car on spray, I'll get the LNC-2000 which will have the launch/NLS ability built in as well. I'll then add the NCC-002 or 003 when the kit actually gets installed.
09-06-2016, 02:11 PM
#43
09-06-2016, 02:15 PM
#44
09-06-2016, 02:25 PM
#45
Burning Brakes
Because it kills spark so the engine does not increase in RPMs like it would during a powershift (or any time the clutch and as pedals are pushed at the same time). The LS7 in particular does NOT like hitting the rev limiter, and powershifting near red line is a surefire way to hit the limiter every time. The WOT box (in addition to many other features) prevents this from happening. The innards of the tranny are still spinning at high RPM, but they would be anyways under performance driving scenarios...the box just keeps everything orderly. Powershifting has been a proven performance driving technique for decades...and has been proven time and time again to be tenths faster at the strip. The box just ensures that maximum longevity and safety is achieved during the chaos.
Does this box use the top clutch switch? I just had an issue recently where my clutch wasn't always fully retuning, which would cause my NLS limiter to kick in. Screwed up a trip to the track for me....
09-06-2016, 03:00 PM
#47
It has one RPM limiter that is used for launch, WOT, or both is you use the clutch pedal for it's activation.
http://www.lingenfelter.com/product/...l#.V88R3vkrLq4
09-06-2016, 10:20 PM
#48
Burning Brakes
So I did a little comparison and thought you guys would be interested. I recently went to the track and did not power shift. After comparing to an older, very similar run with power shifting, I'm not sure if this is actually benefitting me.... It's only two data points, but interesting nonetheless. I think the wheel spins induced by power shifting might be the culprit.
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TRSCobra (09-09-2016)
09-07-2016, 10:35 AM
#50
So I did a little comparison and thought you guys would be interested. I recently went to the track and did not power shift. After comparing to an older, very similar run with power shifting, I'm not sure if this is actually benefitting me.... It's only two data points, but interesting nonetheless. I think the wheel spins induced by power shifting might be the culprit.
"
For me, I had enough seat time in my car that I had pretty good hand/foot coordination so I could row the gears while lifting slightly to help the synchro mesh. As soon as you push in the clutch, you've decoupled the engine from the rear wheels anyways so having the engine rev freely into the limiter doesn't do you any good. When the clutch is let out at WOT and the clutch bites, you either shock the tires out of traction or pull the engine RPM's down to whatever the car's driveline gearing will let the engine have anyways.....the same RPM your "granny shift" will accomplish.
WOT shifting makes sense to me for f/i cars (especially turbo) where you need to maintain the boost pressures at the manifold/throttle blade....N/A and stock tranny, not so much IF you have the skills.
that's my .02
Last edited by FNBADAZ06; 09-07-2016 at 10:35 AM.
09-07-2016, 10:46 AM
#51
Burning Brakes
I'm glad you tried this, as it illustrates exactly what I was saying earlier
"
For me, I had enough seat time in my car that I had pretty good hand/foot coordination so I could row the gears while lifting slightly to help the synchro mesh. As soon as you push in the clutch, you've decoupled the engine from the rear wheels anyways so having the engine rev freely into the limiter doesn't do you any good. When the clutch is let out at WOT and the clutch bites, you either shock the tires out of traction or pull the engine RPM's down to whatever the car's driveline gearing will let the engine have anyways.....the same RPM your "granny shift" will accomplish.
WOT shifting makes sense to me for f/i cars (especially turbo) where you need to maintain the boost pressures at the manifold/throttle blade....N/A and stock tranny, not so much IF you have the skills.
that's my .02
"
For me, I had enough seat time in my car that I had pretty good hand/foot coordination so I could row the gears while lifting slightly to help the synchro mesh. As soon as you push in the clutch, you've decoupled the engine from the rear wheels anyways so having the engine rev freely into the limiter doesn't do you any good. When the clutch is let out at WOT and the clutch bites, you either shock the tires out of traction or pull the engine RPM's down to whatever the car's driveline gearing will let the engine have anyways.....the same RPM your "granny shift" will accomplish.
WOT shifting makes sense to me for f/i cars (especially turbo) where you need to maintain the boost pressures at the manifold/throttle blade....N/A and stock tranny, not so much IF you have the skills.
that's my .02
Very good points. I'm still not sure but thought I'd share some data. I think if u could get the wheel slip down it'd be worthwhile. Maybe slicks get shocked less during a power shift? I must say though that my power shift FEELS faster. I've had people say it feels almost like an auto.
Last edited by rio95; 09-07-2016 at 10:47 AM.
09-07-2016, 11:20 AM
#52
Le Mans Master
I'm glad you tried this, as it illustrates exactly what I was saying earlier
"
For me, I had enough seat time in my car that I had pretty good hand/foot coordination so I could row the gears while lifting slightly to help the synchro mesh. As soon as you push in the clutch, you've decoupled the engine from the rear wheels anyways so having the engine rev freely into the limiter doesn't do you any good. When the clutch is let out at WOT and the clutch bites, you either shock the tires out of traction or pull the engine RPM's down to whatever the car's driveline gearing will let the engine have anyways.....the same RPM your "granny shift" will accomplish.
WOT shifting makes sense to me for f/i cars (especially turbo) where you need to maintain the boost pressures at the manifold/throttle blade....N/A and stock tranny, not so much IF you have the skills.
that's my .02
"
For me, I had enough seat time in my car that I had pretty good hand/foot coordination so I could row the gears while lifting slightly to help the synchro mesh. As soon as you push in the clutch, you've decoupled the engine from the rear wheels anyways so having the engine rev freely into the limiter doesn't do you any good. When the clutch is let out at WOT and the clutch bites, you either shock the tires out of traction or pull the engine RPM's down to whatever the car's driveline gearing will let the engine have anyways.....the same RPM your "granny shift" will accomplish.
WOT shifting makes sense to me for f/i cars (especially turbo) where you need to maintain the boost pressures at the manifold/throttle blade....N/A and stock tranny, not so much IF you have the skills.
that's my .02
Rpm and G's would be more revealing.
Sometimes spin on a shift is beneficial. It all depends on the setup.
09-07-2016, 11:35 AM
#53
Le Mans Master
Just thinking out loud here...
For those of you who are really into drag racing and analyzing data, I'm thinking the simplest way to determine the ideal shift points for a given car on a given day is with a g-meter. It takes into account a lot of variables. Some race car teams monitor every little parameter and have pros analyzing the data over hundreds of runs. Without having those resources, I'm thinking some of you high-tech racers could measure the average g's over a run and the greatest value will likely give the lowest ets assuming everything is smooth. This would help setup shift points and what shifting technique works best.
My software has a g-meter but I never took the time to analyze the data because I'm basically shifting the motor as high as I feel is safe for the conditions and sometimes higher.
For those of you who are really into drag racing and analyzing data, I'm thinking the simplest way to determine the ideal shift points for a given car on a given day is with a g-meter. It takes into account a lot of variables. Some race car teams monitor every little parameter and have pros analyzing the data over hundreds of runs. Without having those resources, I'm thinking some of you high-tech racers could measure the average g's over a run and the greatest value will likely give the lowest ets assuming everything is smooth. This would help setup shift points and what shifting technique works best.
My software has a g-meter but I never took the time to analyze the data because I'm basically shifting the motor as high as I feel is safe for the conditions and sometimes higher.
09-07-2016, 12:16 PM
#54
Just thinking out loud here...
For those of you who are really into drag racing and analyzing data, I'm thinking the simplest way to determine the ideal shift points for a given car on a given day is with a g-meter. It takes into account a lot of variables. Some race car teams monitor every little parameter and have pros analyzing the data over hundreds of runs. Without having those resources, I'm thinking some of you high-tech racers could measure the average g's over a run and the greatest value will likely give the lowest ets assuming everything is smooth. This would help setup shift points and what shifting technique works best.
My software has a g-meter but I never took the time to analyze the data because I'm basically shifting the motor as high as I feel is safe for the conditions and sometimes higher.
For those of you who are really into drag racing and analyzing data, I'm thinking the simplest way to determine the ideal shift points for a given car on a given day is with a g-meter. It takes into account a lot of variables. Some race car teams monitor every little parameter and have pros analyzing the data over hundreds of runs. Without having those resources, I'm thinking some of you high-tech racers could measure the average g's over a run and the greatest value will likely give the lowest ets assuming everything is smooth. This would help setup shift points and what shifting technique works best.
My software has a g-meter but I never took the time to analyze the data because I'm basically shifting the motor as high as I feel is safe for the conditions and sometimes higher.
09-07-2016, 12:25 PM
#55
Burning Brakes
Yeah I know. Technically each shift is a separate data point though and it looks like the comparison held true for every shift. You cannot make a blanket statement that says it does or does not help. It depends! I may be able to eventually figure out if it makes sense for MY setup though. Until then NLS is in!
09-08-2016, 08:22 AM
#56
Le Mans Master
I typed a detailed response...then for some reason it didn't post. Super mad about that. Now all I'm going to do is summarize.
Your data points just mean you need better tires. PSing is ALWAYS faster than not PSing when you have TRACTION.
Bouncing off the rev limiter is bad for numerous reason...a quick google will demonstrate why.
Other boxes exist. But none have the features the WOT box has for the price you're paying for it. I've had YEARS of experience with John's product and it flat out works. I've used them in imports, mustangs, corvettes, GTO's, street, track, etc. The WOT box has ALWAYS been faster than not having one.
Here's a great example of it working. Yes it's a cobra. But listen to how smooth the shifting is.
Use one or don't. It doesn't affect anyone but you. If you want to try other ways like tuning, or single function stuff, go for it. All I'm saying is with good tires and this box, you will NOT be slower, and you will NOT over-rev. Good luck with what ever direction you choose to go.
Your data points just mean you need better tires. PSing is ALWAYS faster than not PSing when you have TRACTION.
Bouncing off the rev limiter is bad for numerous reason...a quick google will demonstrate why.
Other boxes exist. But none have the features the WOT box has for the price you're paying for it. I've had YEARS of experience with John's product and it flat out works. I've used them in imports, mustangs, corvettes, GTO's, street, track, etc. The WOT box has ALWAYS been faster than not having one.
Here's a great example of it working. Yes it's a cobra. But listen to how smooth the shifting is.
Use one or don't. It doesn't affect anyone but you. If you want to try other ways like tuning, or single function stuff, go for it. All I'm saying is with good tires and this box, you will NOT be slower, and you will NOT over-rev. Good luck with what ever direction you choose to go.
09-08-2016, 11:03 PM
#57
Burning Brakes
I typed a detailed response...then for some reason it didn't post. Super mad about that. Now all I'm going to do is summarize.
Your data points just mean you need better tires. PSing is ALWAYS faster than not PSing when you have TRACTION.
Bouncing off the rev limiter is bad for numerous reason...a quick google will demonstrate why.
Other boxes exist. But none have the features the WOT box has for the price you're paying for it. I've had YEARS of experience with John's product and it flat out works. I've used them in imports, mustangs, corvettes, GTO's, street, track, etc. The WOT box has ALWAYS been faster than not having one.
Here's a great example of it working. Yes it's a cobra. But listen to how smooth the shifting is. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vj_I9FhUHNY
Use one or don't. It doesn't affect anyone but you. If you want to try other ways like tuning, or single function stuff, go for it. All I'm saying is with good tires and this box, you will NOT be slower, and you will NOT over-rev. Good luck with what ever direction you choose to go.
Your data points just mean you need better tires. PSing is ALWAYS faster than not PSing when you have TRACTION.
Bouncing off the rev limiter is bad for numerous reason...a quick google will demonstrate why.
Other boxes exist. But none have the features the WOT box has for the price you're paying for it. I've had YEARS of experience with John's product and it flat out works. I've used them in imports, mustangs, corvettes, GTO's, street, track, etc. The WOT box has ALWAYS been faster than not having one.
Here's a great example of it working. Yes it's a cobra. But listen to how smooth the shifting is. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vj_I9FhUHNY
Use one or don't. It doesn't affect anyone but you. If you want to try other ways like tuning, or single function stuff, go for it. All I'm saying is with good tires and this box, you will NOT be slower, and you will NOT over-rev. Good luck with what ever direction you choose to go.
How is this box any different than tuning for it? Doesn't it simply pull spark when u push the clutch in?
Last edited by rio95; 09-08-2016 at 11:03 PM.
09-09-2016, 02:44 PM
#58
Le Mans Master
Go on the website and look at the features man. He's not a vendor here so I can't post a link without violating forum rules.
The spark kill during shifting is adjustable. The 2 step is adjustable. It also has nitrous retard and kill during PSing function. All with the push of a button. You simply can't do the majority of what this box can do with tuning the OEM CPU. The nitrous functions alone make it worth the purchase. FWIW, in my Cobra, I was consistently 3-4 tenths faster at the track. Once you set the 2-step to the track conditions, you can nail your launch every time...then bang the gears on home.
EDIT: And you're right...slicks make ALL the difference. And 315 Hoosiers? The stock tire is a 325. You can get 345's on the stock wheel. Why so small?
The spark kill during shifting is adjustable. The 2 step is adjustable. It also has nitrous retard and kill during PSing function. All with the push of a button. You simply can't do the majority of what this box can do with tuning the OEM CPU. The nitrous functions alone make it worth the purchase. FWIW, in my Cobra, I was consistently 3-4 tenths faster at the track. Once you set the 2-step to the track conditions, you can nail your launch every time...then bang the gears on home.
EDIT: And you're right...slicks make ALL the difference. And 315 Hoosiers? The stock tire is a 325. You can get 345's on the stock wheel. Why so small?
Last edited by Pb82 Ronin; 09-09-2016 at 02:46 PM.
09-09-2016, 09:32 PM
#59
Burning Brakes
Go on the website and look at the features man. He's not a vendor here so I can't post a link without violating forum rules.
The spark kill during shifting is adjustable. The 2 step is adjustable. It also has nitrous retard and kill during PSing function. All with the push of a button. You simply can't do the majority of what this box can do with tuning the OEM CPU. The nitrous functions alone make it worth the purchase. FWIW, in my Cobra, I was consistently 3-4 tenths faster at the track. Once you set the 2-step to the track conditions, you can nail your launch every time...then bang the gears on home.
EDIT: And you're right...slicks make ALL the difference. And 315 Hoosiers? The stock tire is a 325. You can get 345's on the stock wheel. Why so small?
The spark kill during shifting is adjustable. The 2 step is adjustable. It also has nitrous retard and kill during PSing function. All with the push of a button. You simply can't do the majority of what this box can do with tuning the OEM CPU. The nitrous functions alone make it worth the purchase. FWIW, in my Cobra, I was consistently 3-4 tenths faster at the track. Once you set the 2-step to the track conditions, you can nail your launch every time...then bang the gears on home.
EDIT: And you're right...slicks make ALL the difference. And 315 Hoosiers? The stock tire is a 325. You can get 345's on the stock wheel. Why so small?
315/35/17 is by far the most common size people run on C6z cause it's very close to the stock diameter and even though they are only 315, they hook like crazy. I think the stiff sidewall is more to blame during a NLS. These hook great from a stop. I have a very hard time not bogging off the line.
09-09-2016, 09:44 PM
#60
Team Owner
Conversations like this make me appreciate an auto more and more. Auto FTW.