Michael_D

Tired of messing around with this car and the condenser in the way. Sure would make life simpler to remove the condenser whenever I get the itch to swap out a camshaft.....

I've been studying up on auto refrigerant recovery and what I might need to buy or make to do it, and be environmentally considerate. But seeing how I might do this once every year or so, blowing a grand or more on equipment just seems like a waste of money.

I don't expect to evac R-134a from vehicles very often either (and they would be my own, so I do not believe I need a license). I do not have easy access to a shop that can evac (that I would trust to do good work), or anywhere I might rent a recovery unit and tank.

Looks like I need to buy a tank, or try and redneck a propane cylinder.... Not too keen on that idea, so I'll just buy a tank.

I'll need a gauge assembly and vac pump.

I may also need a recovery unit.

I was wondering though, If I have a tank, gauge manifold and vac pump, would I still need a recovery unit to empty the system? Why can't I just pull a vacuum on the tank with the vac pump, then reconnect the hoses from the pump to the system and line the system up to the tank - through the pump? Then start the pump when differential pressure is equalized between the tank and system?

Any suggestions for getting set up to do this, from those who have done it themselves, would be most appreciated.

Nowanker

Interesting design challenge! If you can come up with a pump that can handle the refrigerant, using a propane tank would probably be perfect.
Evacuate the tank, suck the 134 out of the car into it, reverse the process...
There are some subtleties involved, but that's the basics.
On the other hand, basic A/C work is about as basic as it gets to a repair shop. If there are any shops nearby... I own a shop, but don't do nearly enough A/C work to justify the A/C machine. Loathe having anybody else work on my cars, but zero qualms about sending them across the street to have the A/C evacuated and then back again for the evac/rechg after repairs. As long as they don't "road test" them after!
Steve

Michael_D

Not having a reliable shop or mechanic to do anything for me, (even mounting tires), has forced me to do a lot of things I'd rather not be bothered with.

Didn't think about the pump needed to pump liquid as well as a vapor.....good reminder. That's kinda important....LOL

Nowanker

Should be just vapor, if coming from the low side on the car.
My thinking was to use the evacuated propane tank to avoid fighting the high pressure inside a full 134 bottle... that would probably force the vapor being drawn out into liquid past the pump.

User Omega

Idk where you live but if you are local to Indianapolis, IN I could evac and charge it for you when you completed your project.

atljar

The thing with an actual ac machine is that it not only sucks out, but it also then filters, and then pumps into positive pressure tank so that it can be recharged

Even if you prevaccumed a few tanks, and used them to suck down the system... How are you going to either dispose of the tanks or recharge the car with what was recovered?

An actual ac machine is pretty much idiot proof. I would trust most anyone to do it




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User Omega

No, do-all 134a automotive machine even reuses freon. Its basically just so high school drop outs can do ac work with a few buttons... You would never want to reuse old freon anyhow. It's $1.84/lb...

There is a recovery tank inside the machine and a door for the new tank on the side. It must be emptied. The only thing filtered is some oil/water from the gas.

See here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yuaOgvgACMg

atljar

Not trying to be a dick... But a lot of what you said isn't correct.

First of all, it's not freon. Freon is a trade name for R12.

Secondly, the refrigerant doesn't go bad. So long as it's not contaminated, then it's 100 percent fine to reuse.

Third, it's most certainly filtered. It's run through a filter dryer that pulls oil, moisture, and debris out of it. The newer machines track filter life and will shut down if not changed out. There are also often in line filters on the tanks to keep debris out of the lines.

Fourth, the only thing that gets emptied is the waste pag oil. There isn't a waste refrigerant tank. Where do you think it goes? That's right, back into the car.

Fifth... $1.84/lb? It's not expensive, but even buying 30lb cylinders it's more than that. You will spend 4 to 6 per lb buying as a normal consumer. Shops are paying 2 to 3 per lb

Sixth, you suggest just venting to atmosphere. Brilliant solution. I'm sure you could buy outright several machines vs the fines caught doing that illegal mess


While youtube videos are always a reliable source... This is what I am certified for and do for a living

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jft69z

Don't forget to get a good refrigerant scale so you can recharge with the proper amount. These cars typically use 1.1 lbs of refrigerant. You're not going to get an accurate charge otherwise.

I have 1 of these and completely satisfied with it. Amazon even has them but shop around, you may find better prices. Here's one such example:

http://www.tooltopia.com/mastercool-...FRZbhgodEM4BTQ

stefuel

You can buy a cheap set of 134A gauges and vac pump from Harbor Freight. You don't have to buy a 30 lb can. I've bought 10 lb cans.
You should use a scale to weigh in the correct amount. Next time you get the itch to play camshaft boy, go to a gas station that does ac work and pay them to reclaim it. The rest you can do your self. Accidental discharges will always happen However, getting caught doing a planned discharge can result in a steep fine and perhaps jail time. FYI getting bagged dumping the charge can easily cost you more then the car is worth.

User Omega

You have made no valid point here and I am assuming you are either trolling or you are just as you've suggested....

First of all I will start this out by saying I didn't plan on getting involved in in depth technical talk with guys who obviously aren't in the field. Being specific in this would be pointless.


To put some things to bed here...

1: Im so confused. NOT... Freon is actually a trademark which held several types of refrigerant under its brand label. R-12, R-22, R-502 just to name few that I know of for sure since you apparently felt the need to flame up over things you have limited knowledge of.

2: I never claimed the refrigerant could go "bad" now did I? I simply said you would not want to reuse the gas. Especially the way they are discussing here. I wouldn't want to use any refrigerant recovered from a machine even if it were capable of being done at an auto shop. Many vehicles have a ton of contamination in the system mostly from the customer..... I am guessing you are well versed in contamination and what can happen with it so I won't jump into it as these guys don't care. Then again... Moving on...

3: Why are you repeating what has already been established???

4: What planet are you from? Thats 100% wrong. If my local auto shop reused my refrigerant I would be irate. Hmm, maybe that's why I would never take it to one. There is no telling what contaminated gases could be mixed with mine from their tank (or even worse, some mom and pop shop bottle that could also contain oils, water, or air). That tank must be recovered to either another bottle for some systems or replaced with a new recovery cylinder. Under your suggestion, someone could just recover R22 or old converted R12 into it and then all the next customers could receive gas with the improper pressure temperature tables. That's absurd to even suggest. Oh, and then bill you for all the gas they use.... Have you ever seen a line for recovered adjustment on a bill?

5: Again, on what planet??? Even my local hardware store carries it for nearly that. http://www.ruralking.com/r134-r134a-...nder-6330.html I pay Under $1.87 when I do the math on the last tank I bought from a supply house. I'm beginning to wonder if you've ever even been to one since its stacked to the ceilings in most with giant $49.99 pink papers all over it. FFS dude.

6: Illegal mess? Do you even work in the field or are you still in trade school.


Credentials? Sure, two can play that game.

I am RETA CARO/CIRO certified (You'll probably have to look those up)... I am also 608 certified universally..

Oh Oh... and I also possess the 609 open book tested cert you probably have.

I have worked in the refrigeration field for over 15 years now. Five of those years were turning the wrench, four were in the field traveling commercially doing consulting work, and now work in Engineering for a world class company. I am well versed in proper terminology, contamination factors and the Wyotech grad level refrigerant recovery machine used in modern auto shops. Maybe there is some new finagled contraption out there that I am unaware of but as described above.. R12 (or any other gas billy bob can get his hands on) won't work in R134a systems and could easily be added by a customer, recovered by a shop, and then contaminate any number of customer vehicles. A shop sure would be a fool to try it. I know of no affordable way to separate the gasses themselves. The recovery facilities around here say it must be "disposed of". What tradesman would even suggest that?

SlowBusa08

Since this is already way off base, I'll ask a question. where in the hell is the drier located on these cars??? I drained my system last year when I did my cam swap, so I assume that it needs replaced before i get it recharged?

jft69z

Built into the condenser itself.

stefuel

Well back to the task at hand (DIY reclaiming). Can you get the refrigerant out of the car and into a old propane tank? Absolutely, but then what. You've saved the world by not just venting it out but what are you going to do with what you've collected? Now you have a non standard un-certified container with refrigerant in it. My guess is (guess because I've never seen anyone DIY this before) is you will be stuck with it. I seriously doubt any bulk distributor of refrigerant (who also takes back reclaimed product) will touch that container. I am certified as "universal" and I could post a picture of my licence but my ID number is my SSI followed by 0606

stefuel

"I was wondering though, If I have a tank, gauge manifold and vac pump, would I still need a recovery unit to empty the system? Why can't I just pull a vacuum on the tank with the vac pump, then reconnect the hoses from the pump to the system and line the system up to the tank - through the pump? Then start the pump when differential pressure is equalized between the tank and system?"

I have 2 vacuum pumps of different brands and they don't have threaded outlet ports. Both vent through the handle. They are designed to pull a vacuum on a empty system not transfer refrigerant.

Undy

So much miss-information here. I've been in the business for 45 years, a mechanical contractor that owned a business for 35 years. I've been universal since there was a "universal".

Michael, why the hell do you want to remove the condenser?? Just tilt it up, out of the way and call it a day. I have multiple vacuum pumps and recovery rigs and I STILL just lifted the condenser up and out of the way on my cam change. Call me if you want to talk.

atljar

Sorry Michael for going well off track! You're always super helpful and I ruined your thread.

With that said, I wonder why they are called, "recover, recycle, recharge" machines. That middle word is confusing!

http://www.robinair.com/products/automotive/field_category/Automotive-99/field_category/A%25252FC%2520Recovery%2520and%2520Recyc ling-53
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I could retort about 90% more, but you are a smart guy and will figure out what is what.

Nowanker

100% word of truth in the automotive world. I'm also "licensed and certified" as an automotive refrigerant handler, although I choose to not do that work.
My thought about using the empty/evacuated of all air propane tank relies on the assumption that it's clean and free from rust. Following removal from the car, the 134 would then be sucked back out of the tank and returned to the car, restoring the initial vacuum to the cylinder. Minimal 134 is vented into the air and none remains in the tank. No provision for filtering or drying, but anyone resourceful enough to get that far could certainly adapt a receiver/drier to the setup.
I personally wouldn't bother... it's an easy and pretty much foolproof sublet, but then I'm not in Alaska.
Michael D: you rock! good luck.

Michael_D

Well this got interesting......

Firstly, if anyone would actually READ what I wrote, you would notice a few points I made that have since been questions "why do you want to do ......"

1) I live where there is nobody around to evac the car. The closest is 300 miles away.
2) I WILL NOT DUMP TO THE ENVIRONMENT. Frankly, to anyone who would suggest this, you are being a dick. And that's coming from someone who is a conservative that has been working for big oil and gas, and the nuke industry for his entire adult life. Nobody has ever accused me of being a tree hugger.
3) I said I did not want to redneck a propane tank. It would be dangerous to weld a drop down tube to the shell, even if I could purge it with nitrogen. Plus, I'd have to figure out how to remove the check valve. Again, don't want to do that and am looking to buy a recovery tank. I've been shopping around, and the 30# is the smallest I've seen. Did not realize there were smaller tanks.
4) I want to do this, because I do not just want to separate the condenser and use baling wire (or some other means) to hold it out of the way. I want to remove it, for a variety of reasons.

Now if anyone wants to help me put together a shopping list for doing this, (very infrequently), that would not cost me a small fortune, please do.

Nowanker

Haven't ever looked for individual refrigerant recycling machine components, but it'd make sense that they're available. I'll bet the pump is a bunch... I'll poke around.