[Z06] AHP Package 4 or Lingenfelter Heads?
#41
Any of the shops mentioned in this thread, or others… CAN do good work. Most probably do, and do so consistently. But sometimes things just happen and the product that leaves the shop is not up to snuff. All experienced engine builders know this, and that’s why they blueprint. Disassemble and inspect, measure and log everything – that’s part of what blue printing an engine is. Trust, but verify….. Either that or drop your car off and pay a shop to do everything and provide you a warranty. Or, you could buy a set of heads from a shop, and pay them for a couple hours of their time inspecting (with instruments), the cylinder heads and documenting their findings.
I just mentioned AI, because they have a killer CNC program for these heads and they just make great power. But if you are less interested in peak power, and just looking for improved reliability, then AHP, WCCH, LPE will be just fine – but you should still verify the quality of the machine work done.
Would you (or anyone) assembling a short block after sending the block and rotating assembly out for machine work, and not check cylinder taper and piston clearance, bearing clearance, crank thrust, or ring end gap, etc....??? No, so why do so many just bolt down a set of cylinder heads without verifying the machine work?
#42
Le Mans Master
Its about the valve geometry being right and the combination of parts. It has to be 10s of thousands of cars running around out there on the streets, and racetracks, running much more aggressive setups than being done here, that don't use these super guides.
Nothing against using them, or touting them because someone did, but to say they are "best" or the only solution is just wrong.
There are many great shops out there that can do a proper job on heads. Speak to them and use whichever one you feel most comfortable after doing so. That usually works out for me.
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r2boxers (03-20-2017)
#44
Safety Car
And given a choice with softer PM guides, bronze and the harder PM guides on a table, most of you will install the harder guides despite the rhetoric posted.
#45
Le Mans Master
Only rhetoric here is in favor of the harder guides. But like I said, everyone should do what makes them feel most comfortable.
#46
Team Owner
Nope. I would not. Especially at a drastic price increase.
#47
Team Owner
Contrary to popular belief, cutting a seat concentric to the guide insert bore – to spec, is not as easy as it sounds. It is not something any machine shop can, or should do. You need good machinery, and a deft hand running the machinery. I am not just being a parrot either, I owned an early model Serdi and for the life of me, could not get the damn thing to cut a seat that I was happy with. Ended up selling the stupid thing. There are machine shops that specialize in automotive machine work, and then there are job shops. There are also shops who specialize in large runs, and they have CNC machines for repeatability. Some auto machinists will have a combination of both. You won’t find many job shops that have Sunnen or Newen machines though…..
On average our valve jobs have .0005"-.0008" Valve Seat Run out.
Our max valve seat runout tolerance is .001" anything over that and we are not satisfied with it.
We take our time when we do our valve jobs this insures we get the least amount of runout possible. We valve quality of work over all else.
Our max valve seat runout tolerance is .001" anything over that and we are not satisfied with it.
We take our time when we do our valve jobs this insures we get the least amount of runout possible. We valve quality of work over all else.
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REDZED2 (03-20-2017)
#48
Contrary to popular belief, cutting a seat concentric to the guide insert bore – to spec, is not as easy as it sounds. It is not something any machine shop can, or should do. You need good machinery, and a deft hand running the machinery. I am not just being a parrot either, I owned an early model Serdi and for the life of me, could not get the damn thing to cut a seat that I was happy with. Ended up selling the stupid thing. There are machine shops that specialize in automotive machine work, and then there are job shops. There are also shops who specialize in large runs, and they have CNC machines for repeatability. Some auto machinists will have a combination of both. You won’t find many job shops that have Sunnen or Newen machines though…..
Any of the shops mentioned in this thread, or others… CAN do good work. Most probably do, and do so consistently. But sometimes things just happen and the product that leaves the shop is not up to snuff. All experienced engine builders know this, and that’s why they blueprint. Disassemble and inspect, measure and log everything – that’s part of what blue printing an engine is. Trust, but verify….. Either that or drop your car off and pay a shop to do everything and provide you a warranty. Or, you could buy a set of heads from a shop, and pay them for a couple hours of their time inspecting (with instruments), the cylinder heads and documenting their findings.
I just mentioned AI, because they have a killer CNC program for these heads and they just make great power. But if you are less interested in peak power, and just looking for improved reliability, then AHP, WCCH, LPE will be just fine – but you should still verify the quality of the machine work done.
Would you (or anyone) assembling a short block after sending the block and rotating assembly out for machine work, and not check cylinder taper and piston clearance, bearing clearance, crank thrust, or ring end gap, etc....??? No, so why do so many just bolt down a set of cylinder heads without verifying the machine work?
Any of the shops mentioned in this thread, or others… CAN do good work. Most probably do, and do so consistently. But sometimes things just happen and the product that leaves the shop is not up to snuff. All experienced engine builders know this, and that’s why they blueprint. Disassemble and inspect, measure and log everything – that’s part of what blue printing an engine is. Trust, but verify….. Either that or drop your car off and pay a shop to do everything and provide you a warranty. Or, you could buy a set of heads from a shop, and pay them for a couple hours of their time inspecting (with instruments), the cylinder heads and documenting their findings.
I just mentioned AI, because they have a killer CNC program for these heads and they just make great power. But if you are less interested in peak power, and just looking for improved reliability, then AHP, WCCH, LPE will be just fine – but you should still verify the quality of the machine work done.
Would you (or anyone) assembling a short block after sending the block and rotating assembly out for machine work, and not check cylinder taper and piston clearance, bearing clearance, crank thrust, or ring end gap, etc....??? No, so why do so many just bolt down a set of cylinder heads without verifying the machine work?
#49
Team Owner
Or aftermarket heads. Other options I would strongly look at is Mamo TFS, WCCH brodix, WCCH AllPros, etc. More money, but a better head IMO if you want to open your options up.
#50
Read my comments again. I said, if you are assembling a short block. If you buy one assembled from an engine builder, it will normally come with some form of warranty, and a build sheet that will have all measurements noted. If it doesn't come with a build sheet, it should be broke down and inspected. Have you ever seen that with a set of rebuilt heads? But yes, the end user will eventually need to trust someone, if they are not builders themselves.
#51
Le Mans Master
Read my comments again. I said, if you are assembling a short block. If you buy one assembled from an engine builder, it will normally come with some form of warranty, and a build sheet that will have all measurements noted. If it doesn't come with a build sheet, it should be broke down and inspected. Have you ever seen that with a set of rebuilt heads? But yes, the end user will eventually need to trust someone, if they are not builders themselves.
Most guys aren't capable to double check that type of work, and like you said, you have to have some trust.
#52
Team Owner
Very true...I'm interested to see more MMS builds. I've also seen a few Mast 285 head builds lately that make real good power.
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REDZED2 (03-20-2017)
#53
Will it note guide clearance and seat runout for every hole? Spring height and loads for every valve? No. So you have to either take it on faith, inspect yourself, or have someone else check for you.
#54
Le Mans Master
Not many guys are capable to check these things... that's why they are using a shop. If you don't trust the shop doing it, you are using the wrong shop.
#55
Team Owner
I had the install height written on the heads. IMO that should be standard practice.
#56
No, not each hole. If you did see that, every one would by slightly different. I spend ALOT of time blueprinting heads. I go so far as swapping locks and retainers, trying to get each set as close to target height I can. I have not ever seen all 16 identical. But again, that takes time, and end users will not want to pay for that.
#57
Le Mans Master
No, not each hole. If you did see that, every one would by slightly different. I spend ALOT of time blueprinting heads. I go so far as swapping locks and retainers, trying to get each set as close to target height I can. I have not ever seen all 16 identical. But again, that takes time, and end users will not want to pay for that.
I always marveled at how many places claim to install springs at the correct heights, without asking for cam specs. How does that work ?
And you are right... the spring heights will not be identical, but will be very close assuming seats and work was done right.
Last edited by realcanuk; 03-20-2017 at 03:11 PM.
#58
I don't know the practices of all the shops. I can tell you I just had my heads done, and they cut the valves stems to make sure they were all identical heights.
I always marveled at how many places claim to install springs at the correct heights, without asking for cam specs. How does that work ?
And you are right... the spring heights will not be identical, but will be very close assuming seats and work was done right.
I always marveled at how many places claim to install springs at the correct heights, without asking for cam specs. How does that work ?
And you are right... the spring heights will not be identical, but will be very close assuming seats and work was done right.
#59
Instructor
Basically, if I'm going to do it, I'm only to do everything I can to only do it once. From what I researched about the MoldStar guides is that it is a material that actually gets harder with use and (hopefully) will last longer than PM. No one really knows why the LS7 heads drop valves. The data is all over the place. Some say exhaust valve quality control, some say bad cylinder head geometry. So, the way I see it, the Ferrea SS valves take care of the valve quality control problem and the MoldStar guides can stand up to possibly bad geomety a little better than PM. Hope this helps.
#60
Le Mans Master
cutting/grinding the stems will affect total stem height for rocker geo, but not spring height. That's fixed to the lock grove. There is a window for optimal height and lift and coil bind distance. I prefer 0.060-0.080. Some "builders" will accept more. I wait till I have the cam specs and train components identified before I spec a spring.
Last edited by Dan_the_C5_Man; 03-20-2017 at 05:03 PM.