The new Corvette Ferrari
07-12-2012, 07:21 PM
#41
Drifting
I think the fact of the matter is that team Corvette has looked at Ferrari as their look and performance target model for quite a while. I cannot think of another auto manufacturer they have tried more to emulate in the last few generations so, in a way, it would have been very interesting if Fiat would have bought GM vs Chrysler. One can only imagine what might have happened to the Corvette if they had.
07-12-2012, 08:36 PM
#44
Race Director
Thread Starter
07-12-2012, 09:09 PM
#45
Drifting
Member Since: Feb 2002
Location: Chapel Hill NC
Posts: 1,260
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
07-12-2012, 09:32 PM
#47
Le Mans Master
The similarity goes beyond the dismissive "front engine rear drive two seater."
The front and rear fender lines are nearly the same, particularly the point at which they intersect (the mirror) and the way the rear fender line starts in the vent and sweeps over the rear wheel to the tail.
This is actually a pretty striking design shift for the Corvette; the C2, C3, and C6 all made dramatic use of the classic "coke bottle" principle, with the narrow "waist" pushed far back (along with the driver) almost to the B pillar. C7's "waist" is at the A-pillar. To my eyes it makes it less like a muscle car and more like a race car.
That said, one thing that's been bugging me about the way C5/C6 is packaged is still coming through loud and clear for me on C7. C5 disguised it with a deep side cove and fender vent. C6 disguised it with exaggerated fenders, but betrayed it with the very shallow side cove & vent. Granted I only have illustrations to go on, but the C7 front fender vent and side cove seems even more shallow. The thing that bugs me is that the Corvette is packaged like a low rectangular slab with a canopy added; the swoops and vents are trying to express more drama than is really there. Sorry I'm not explaining this well. Ferrari's styling drama seems to go right to the bone, like the sculpted it and then figured out how to get the mechanical bits to fit. Corvette's styling drama seems papier-mache'd on the brick of machinery. An engineer might say this is very efficient use of space, and it's clean aerodynamically, but... it seems like sleight-of-hand that I can't unsee. Compare it to the Viper, which is an exclamation of shape. (Adding Z06/ZR1 style fender flares compounds rather than fixes the problem to my eye.)
I guess I just wish the sweeping fenders and side coves were more convincing.
The front and rear fender lines are nearly the same, particularly the point at which they intersect (the mirror) and the way the rear fender line starts in the vent and sweeps over the rear wheel to the tail.
This is actually a pretty striking design shift for the Corvette; the C2, C3, and C6 all made dramatic use of the classic "coke bottle" principle, with the narrow "waist" pushed far back (along with the driver) almost to the B pillar. C7's "waist" is at the A-pillar. To my eyes it makes it less like a muscle car and more like a race car.
That said, one thing that's been bugging me about the way C5/C6 is packaged is still coming through loud and clear for me on C7. C5 disguised it with a deep side cove and fender vent. C6 disguised it with exaggerated fenders, but betrayed it with the very shallow side cove & vent. Granted I only have illustrations to go on, but the C7 front fender vent and side cove seems even more shallow. The thing that bugs me is that the Corvette is packaged like a low rectangular slab with a canopy added; the swoops and vents are trying to express more drama than is really there. Sorry I'm not explaining this well. Ferrari's styling drama seems to go right to the bone, like the sculpted it and then figured out how to get the mechanical bits to fit. Corvette's styling drama seems papier-mache'd on the brick of machinery. An engineer might say this is very efficient use of space, and it's clean aerodynamically, but... it seems like sleight-of-hand that I can't unsee. Compare it to the Viper, which is an exclamation of shape. (Adding Z06/ZR1 style fender flares compounds rather than fixes the problem to my eye.)
I guess I just wish the sweeping fenders and side coves were more convincing.
07-12-2012, 10:03 PM
#48
The similarity goes beyond the dismissive "front engine rear drive two seater."
The front and rear fender lines are nearly the same, particularly the point at which they intersect (the mirror) and the way the rear fender line starts in the vent and sweeps over the rear wheel to the tail.
This is actually a pretty striking design shift for the Corvette; the C2, C3, and C6 all made dramatic use of the classic "coke bottle" principle, with the narrow "waist" pushed far back (along with the driver) almost to the B pillar. C7's "waist" is at the A-pillar. To my eyes it makes it less like a muscle car and more like a race car.
That said, one thing that's been bugging me about the way C5/C6 is packaged is still coming through loud and clear for me on C7. C5 disguised it with a deep side cove and fender vent. C6 disguised it with exaggerated fenders, but betrayed it with the very shallow side cove & vent. Granted I only have illustrations to go on, but the C7 front fender vent and side cove seems even more shallow. The thing that bugs me is that the Corvette is packaged like a low rectangular slab with a canopy added; the swoops and vents are trying to express more drama than is really there. Sorry I'm not explaining this well. Ferrari's styling drama seems to go right to the bone, like the sculpted it and then figured out how to get the mechanical bits to fit. Corvette's styling drama seems papier-mache'd on the brick of machinery. An engineer might say this is very efficient use of space, and it's clean aerodynamically, but... it seems like sleight-of-hand that I can't unsee. Compare it to the Viper, which is an exclamation of shape. (Adding Z06/ZR1 style fender flares compounds rather than fixes the problem to my eye.)
I guess I just wish the sweeping fenders and side coves were more convincing.
The front and rear fender lines are nearly the same, particularly the point at which they intersect (the mirror) and the way the rear fender line starts in the vent and sweeps over the rear wheel to the tail.
This is actually a pretty striking design shift for the Corvette; the C2, C3, and C6 all made dramatic use of the classic "coke bottle" principle, with the narrow "waist" pushed far back (along with the driver) almost to the B pillar. C7's "waist" is at the A-pillar. To my eyes it makes it less like a muscle car and more like a race car.
That said, one thing that's been bugging me about the way C5/C6 is packaged is still coming through loud and clear for me on C7. C5 disguised it with a deep side cove and fender vent. C6 disguised it with exaggerated fenders, but betrayed it with the very shallow side cove & vent. Granted I only have illustrations to go on, but the C7 front fender vent and side cove seems even more shallow. The thing that bugs me is that the Corvette is packaged like a low rectangular slab with a canopy added; the swoops and vents are trying to express more drama than is really there. Sorry I'm not explaining this well. Ferrari's styling drama seems to go right to the bone, like the sculpted it and then figured out how to get the mechanical bits to fit. Corvette's styling drama seems papier-mache'd on the brick of machinery. An engineer might say this is very efficient use of space, and it's clean aerodynamically, but... it seems like sleight-of-hand that I can't unsee. Compare it to the Viper, which is an exclamation of shape. (Adding Z06/ZR1 style fender flares compounds rather than fixes the problem to my eye.)
I guess I just wish the sweeping fenders and side coves were more convincing.
07-12-2012, 10:04 PM
#49
Race Director
Thread Starter
The similarity goes beyond the dismissive "front engine rear drive two seater."
The front and rear fender lines are nearly the same, particularly the point at which they intersect (the mirror) and the way the rear fender line starts in the vent and sweeps over the rear wheel to the tail.
This is actually a pretty striking design shift for the Corvette; the C2, C3, and C6 all made dramatic use of the classic "coke bottle" principle, with the narrow "waist" pushed far back (along with the driver) almost to the B pillar. C7's "waist" is at the A-pillar. To my eyes it makes it less like a muscle car and more like a race car.
That said, one thing that's been bugging me about the way C5/C6 is packaged is still coming through loud and clear for me on C7. C5 disguised it with a deep side cove and fender vent. C6 disguised it with exaggerated fenders, but betrayed it with the very shallow side cove & vent. Granted I only have illustrations to go on, but the C7 front fender vent and side cove seems even more shallow. The thing that bugs me is that the Corvette is packaged like a low rectangular slab with a canopy added; the swoops and vents are trying to express more drama than is really there. Sorry I'm not explaining this well. Ferrari's styling drama seems to go right to the bone, like the sculpted it and then figured out how to get the mechanical bits to fit. Corvette's styling drama seems papier-mache'd on the brick of machinery. An engineer might say this is very efficient use of space, and it's clean aerodynamically, but... it seems like sleight-of-hand that I can't unsee. Compare it to the Viper, which is an exclamation of shape. (Adding Z06/ZR1 style fender flares compounds rather than fixes the problem to my eye.)
I guess I just wish the sweeping fenders and side coves were more convincing.
The front and rear fender lines are nearly the same, particularly the point at which they intersect (the mirror) and the way the rear fender line starts in the vent and sweeps over the rear wheel to the tail.
This is actually a pretty striking design shift for the Corvette; the C2, C3, and C6 all made dramatic use of the classic "coke bottle" principle, with the narrow "waist" pushed far back (along with the driver) almost to the B pillar. C7's "waist" is at the A-pillar. To my eyes it makes it less like a muscle car and more like a race car.
That said, one thing that's been bugging me about the way C5/C6 is packaged is still coming through loud and clear for me on C7. C5 disguised it with a deep side cove and fender vent. C6 disguised it with exaggerated fenders, but betrayed it with the very shallow side cove & vent. Granted I only have illustrations to go on, but the C7 front fender vent and side cove seems even more shallow. The thing that bugs me is that the Corvette is packaged like a low rectangular slab with a canopy added; the swoops and vents are trying to express more drama than is really there. Sorry I'm not explaining this well. Ferrari's styling drama seems to go right to the bone, like the sculpted it and then figured out how to get the mechanical bits to fit. Corvette's styling drama seems papier-mache'd on the brick of machinery. An engineer might say this is very efficient use of space, and it's clean aerodynamically, but... it seems like sleight-of-hand that I can't unsee. Compare it to the Viper, which is an exclamation of shape. (Adding Z06/ZR1 style fender flares compounds rather than fixes the problem to my eye.)
I guess I just wish the sweeping fenders and side coves were more convincing.
The fact that Corvette is expected to sell in much greater numbers than any Ferrari or Viper in the U.S. leads GM to genericize their designs to appeal to a larger variety of target audiences. They steal a little from their past, from Ferrari, the military, and maybe even the GTR now. So the whole C7 package ends up looking like a lot of things that might appeal to SOMEONE, including Corvette Racing!
The race car influence is obviously critical to GM now and is going to drive a lot of the marketing of the C7...especially if this season ends up being really successful. The 'shallowness' of the design, IMHO, is due to that racing influence. They will still have to add downforce in the C7R, but that is easy to do. I'm not explaining it very well either...
07-12-2012, 10:22 PM
#50
Le Mans Master
Actually that's not what I meant, and I don't think they're actively borrowing design elements from anything or watering down the style for the sake of broader appeal. I don't think they're afraid to be original and bold, there just aren't a lot of inches of shape they can afford without intruding on the package or hurting aero. Some of that is Racing, some is comfort and practicality, some is trying to address complaints that the car seems large. It's greedy to want a little more exotica at the expense of practicality, but dammit I'm greedy.
07-12-2012, 11:14 PM
#51
Drifting
Get what you mean I think. Everyone pretty much says put a c6 z and a 4th gen viper of the same color side by side and the silhouettes are the same. To an extent they are. But REALLY look at them and the seating location, the extra 2 or 3 resulting inches more in the viper's hood, the over hangs... all clearly distinguish the cars from each other. That is the corvettes gift/curse(although opposite of what you said actually). It has to keep that certain amount of space in the hatch for practicality's sake thus keeping the basic cockpit/hatch space looking similar, as they can only push the seats so far back. The viper acr(as well as 599 I believe) has a 48/52 weight distribution. That seems unimaginable with that v10/12 up front until you really look at the side profile and see just how far back the seating is compared to a corvette. So to compare the 599 and possible c7 isn't, other then design cues, fair until they are both viewed at scale of each other.
07-12-2012, 11:23 PM
#52
Race Director
Thread Starter
Actually that's not what I meant, and I don't think they're actively borrowing design elements from anything or watering down the style for the sake of broader appeal. I don't think they're afraid to be original and bold, there just aren't a lot of inches of shape they can afford without intruding on the package or hurting aero. Some of that is Racing, some is comfort and practicality, some is trying to address complaints that the car seems large. It's greedy to want a little more exotica at the expense of practicality, but dammit I'm greedy.
And it is clear they are actively borrowing design elements. How much this is happening we won't see until we get the final product.
07-12-2012, 11:45 PM
#53
Drifting
Member Since: Feb 2002
Location: Chapel Hill NC
Posts: 1,260
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"In 1959 Brock left GM after losing interest in what they were doing. GM, at the time, was in their anti racing period, and performance cars were not really on their agenda. Brock went back to California, and got a job working for Old Yaller racer Max Balchowsky. One of Max's drivers at the time was a fellow by the name of Carroll Shelby.
Brock was into racing on his time too. He had bought a Le Mans Cooper racecar, and spent all his spare time rebuilding it. He began racing it at Palm Springs in the SCCA southern pacific division, then he bought a Mark II Lotus XI and finished second one season in that car. Pete drifted from job to job, until one day his path crossed with Carol Shelby again, who hired him in 1962 to run his new Performance driving school at Riverside raceway."
There's more to the story but does this answer your question?
Brock was into racing on his time too. He had bought a Le Mans Cooper racecar, and spent all his spare time rebuilding it. He began racing it at Palm Springs in the SCCA southern pacific division, then he bought a Mark II Lotus XI and finished second one season in that car. Pete drifted from job to job, until one day his path crossed with Carol Shelby again, who hired him in 1962 to run his new Performance driving school at Riverside raceway."
There's more to the story but does this answer your question?
07-13-2012, 12:05 AM
#54
Melting Slicks
Actually that's not what I meant, and I don't think they're actively borrowing design elements from anything or watering down the style for the sake of broader appeal. I don't think they're afraid to be original and bold, there just aren't a lot of inches of shape they can afford without intruding on the package or hurting aero. Some of that is Racing, some is comfort and practicality, some is trying to address complaints that the car seems large. It's greedy to want a little more exotica at the expense of practicality, but dammit I'm greedy.
Ferraris inspire.
The C7 is trying to please everybody a little. As a result, it may not please anybody a lot. Just my opinion, based upon what has been revealed.
07-13-2012, 12:05 AM
#55
"In 1959 Brock left GM after losing interest in what they were doing. GM, at the time, was in their anti racing period, and performance cars were not really on their agenda. Brock went back to California, and got a job working for Old Yaller racer Max Balchowsky. One of Max's drivers at the time was a fellow by the name of Carroll Shelby.
Brock was into racing on his time too. He had bought a Le Mans Cooper racecar, and spent all his spare time rebuilding it. He began racing it at Palm Springs in the SCCA southern pacific division, then he bought a Mark II Lotus XI and finished second one season in that car. Pete drifted from job to job, until one day his path crossed with Carol Shelby again, who hired him in 1962 to run his new Performance driving school at Riverside raceway."
There's more to the story but does this answer your question?
Brock was into racing on his time too. He had bought a Le Mans Cooper racecar, and spent all his spare time rebuilding it. He began racing it at Palm Springs in the SCCA southern pacific division, then he bought a Mark II Lotus XI and finished second one season in that car. Pete drifted from job to job, until one day his path crossed with Carol Shelby again, who hired him in 1962 to run his new Performance driving school at Riverside raceway."
There's more to the story but does this answer your question?
07-13-2012, 01:37 AM
#56
Pro
the C6 (2005) stole cues from the Ferrari 360 (1999)
the C7 (2014) stole cues from the Ferrari 599 (2007)
good thing? if you like being 6-7 years behind the curve. dont get me wrong, it looks great, but it'd be nice to say a 2020 Ferrari stole cues from the 2014 Corvette.
the C7 (2014) stole cues from the Ferrari 599 (2007)
good thing? if you like being 6-7 years behind the curve. dont get me wrong, it looks great, but it'd be nice to say a 2020 Ferrari stole cues from the 2014 Corvette.
The C6 looks nothing like the 360 (rear mid engine) and if the timing of the 599 was post C6 so if anything, Ferrari tried to match the looks of the C6 with a FR layout.
To be honest, before this discussion ever arose, I always thought in the back of my mind that this was the case. I was always drawn to the 599 looks because it looked so much like the Corvette.
07-13-2012, 01:40 AM
#57
Pro
I've got money that they stick to round tail lights since they've had them forever and it's such a noticeable symbol for Corvette. If they deviate there will be lots of angry folks.
07-13-2012, 01:47 AM
#58
I also have no problem with it looking similar to a 599. I just hope it does not have the front fascia overhang be so damn long.
07-13-2012, 03:19 AM
#59
FR...Ferrari already had that in the predecessor to the 599, the 550/575.
07-13-2012, 04:23 AM
#60
Le Mans Master
Member Since: Jul 2009
Location: Los Angeles California
Posts: 9,526
Likes: 0
Received 10 Likes
on
10 Posts
It seems to me that people don't really understand the use of aerodynamics and wind tunnel testing.
At some point all companies are going to hit that "perfect" peak of aero and down force. At that point, all the cars will look the same when they use the same platform layout.
At some point all companies are going to hit that "perfect" peak of aero and down force. At that point, all the cars will look the same when they use the same platform layout.
