Begining of the End of the Corvette....
08-23-2012, 10:53 AM
#21
I don't think that GM will discontinue the Corvette, it's their halo car.
That said one has to look back at what happened when both GM and Chrysler stopped making their pony cars Camaro/Firebird and Callenger, they left the door wide open to FORD that kept going and gaining market share until both GM and Chrysler came back with their pony car.
I don't understand the logic if GM discontinues the Corvette people who can afford these cars will simply jump to BMW's M cars, or Mercedes AMG, Prosche, and even Aston Martins.
Honda as an example discontinued, its CRX, NSX and S2000 which did outrage some of its loyal customers who loved these cars and now they re-introduced the CR-Z which is similar to the CRX but more of a hybrid then what it was originally. the NSX is coming out with all its high tech hybrid tech as well.
The only thing GM will accomplish is losing part of its sports car market share and upset its corvette fan base.
GM can cater to China its Buicks and caddies. Asian markets like the cushy rides.
The Corvette market as I see it belongs in North America and Europe (Ex: Germany) where u see those cars full out on the autobahn.
IMHO there are 4 sports cars that can and are affordable for us regular folks. 1) Corvette, 2) 1st generation NSX 3) (new or used) Aston Martin Vantage, and 4) (new or used) Porsches. 3 of these these cars are affordable sports cars and are easily be maintained by us (with the exception of the 911's)
They all can be used as daily drivers and track cars maintenance is reasonable. Aston martin ur looking at $1600 maintenance fee every 16,000km (10k miles) major expense would be replacing the clutch (5 to 6k range) but its a car a DIY can maintain.
I had an NSX never had any issues with it, as reliable as an accord. It was stolen I joined CF and was undecided between the C5 or C6. I had to wait 1.5 yrs before the C6 release and some CF members advised me to take the plunge get a C5 and later trade it in for a C6.
I Ended up selling it and jumped ship to an Aston Martin as I loved the styling of that car bought a used one for 70K with extended warranty. Note however that both the 911 and Z06 could out perform a V8 Aston Martin and match its V12 sibling. People who buy Aston buy it for a different reason i bought it because its a lovely GT cruiser.
Now am looking back to jumping back to a C7, if it will be major upgrade interior wise. I don't expect it to be Aston Martin like interior but something as decent as the CTS interior and wish they drop the CTS seats into the Corvette.
That said one has to look back at what happened when both GM and Chrysler stopped making their pony cars Camaro/Firebird and Callenger, they left the door wide open to FORD that kept going and gaining market share until both GM and Chrysler came back with their pony car.
I don't understand the logic if GM discontinues the Corvette people who can afford these cars will simply jump to BMW's M cars, or Mercedes AMG, Prosche, and even Aston Martins.
Honda as an example discontinued, its CRX, NSX and S2000 which did outrage some of its loyal customers who loved these cars and now they re-introduced the CR-Z which is similar to the CRX but more of a hybrid then what it was originally. the NSX is coming out with all its high tech hybrid tech as well.
The only thing GM will accomplish is losing part of its sports car market share and upset its corvette fan base.
GM can cater to China its Buicks and caddies. Asian markets like the cushy rides.
The Corvette market as I see it belongs in North America and Europe (Ex: Germany) where u see those cars full out on the autobahn.
IMHO there are 4 sports cars that can and are affordable for us regular folks. 1) Corvette, 2) 1st generation NSX 3) (new or used) Aston Martin Vantage, and 4) (new or used) Porsches. 3 of these these cars are affordable sports cars and are easily be maintained by us (with the exception of the 911's)
They all can be used as daily drivers and track cars maintenance is reasonable. Aston martin ur looking at $1600 maintenance fee every 16,000km (10k miles) major expense would be replacing the clutch (5 to 6k range) but its a car a DIY can maintain.
I had an NSX never had any issues with it, as reliable as an accord. It was stolen I joined CF and was undecided between the C5 or C6. I had to wait 1.5 yrs before the C6 release and some CF members advised me to take the plunge get a C5 and later trade it in for a C6.
I Ended up selling it and jumped ship to an Aston Martin as I loved the styling of that car bought a used one for 70K with extended warranty. Note however that both the 911 and Z06 could out perform a V8 Aston Martin and match its V12 sibling. People who buy Aston buy it for a different reason i bought it because its a lovely GT cruiser.
Now am looking back to jumping back to a C7, if it will be major upgrade interior wise. I don't expect it to be Aston Martin like interior but something as decent as the CTS interior and wish they drop the CTS seats into the Corvette.
Last edited by John_R; 08-23-2012 at 11:15 AM.
08-23-2012, 11:20 AM
#23
To sell a $100K car in this economy, it has to have one thing that is extraordinary beyond a name. If anyone was to predict that one feature for the C7, what would it be? It looks like a Ferrari won't cut it IMO.
FWIW I agree with most of what EBVette has written.
FWIW I agree with most of what EBVette has written.
08-23-2012, 11:24 AM
#24
Melting Slicks
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The market for perfume, expensive watche and dozen other high end items still cost less that a $65K Sports Car. Even these items have modified themselves to be produced cheaper, sold cheaper (even though the are still very expensive).
Rolex Submariner Watch, Cost in 1980 was $1800, production that year was approximatley 25 thousand.
Rolex Submariner Watch, Cost in 2011 is average is about $5K production for 2011, less then 10 thousand worldwide.
Vintage Sumbariner Watch from 1980, resale value about $18k in good condition.
Difference, Rolex changed the technology of assembling the watch and much of the interals are not metal but high grade nylon, vintage watches were still hand assembled and all metal.
Rolex adjusted to the changing times if you add inflation you will find the watch price in proportion is about the same price as 1980 but using less expensive labor and pieces to assemble
Rolex Submariner Watch, Cost in 1980 was $1800, production that year was approximatley 25 thousand.
Rolex Submariner Watch, Cost in 2011 is average is about $5K production for 2011, less then 10 thousand worldwide.
Vintage Sumbariner Watch from 1980, resale value about $18k in good condition.
Difference, Rolex changed the technology of assembling the watch and much of the interals are not metal but high grade nylon, vintage watches were still hand assembled and all metal.
Rolex adjusted to the changing times if you add inflation you will find the watch price in proportion is about the same price as 1980 but using less expensive labor and pieces to assemble
08-23-2012, 11:25 AM
#25
Le Mans Master
I have to agree with many of the things the OP stated. I think he is dead on with his facts about our economy and future in general, but I think GM may still produce the Corvette in limited numbers even with a loss, just to have a halo car. They need the Corvette if ONLY for marketing, just like they NEED the racing program even when faced with bankruptcy. They both provide value that can not be put into hard numbers. For example winning Le Mans several times over the past 10 years has REALLY changed much of the European view of the car and brand. For one of the first times, a Corvette ran in FIA GT by European teams and won a couple of championships. For European teams to pick a Corvette to race over Ferrari, Aston, Lambo, Porsche, says quite a lot. GM is gaining respect and it comes earned one race at a time.
I think the big factor here will be the huge decline in middle class over the next 5-10 years. I just think it will be unprecedented in the US history and 90% of the buyer are middle class. People are fighting to pay bills and a mortgage, gone are the days of saving, prosperity and growth. Our infrastruce is crumbling, our country and world is becoming overcrowded, war will only get worse as resources become scarce. I feel sorry for our kids who are losing sight of the American Dream.
I think the big factor here will be the huge decline in middle class over the next 5-10 years. I just think it will be unprecedented in the US history and 90% of the buyer are middle class. People are fighting to pay bills and a mortgage, gone are the days of saving, prosperity and growth. Our infrastruce is crumbling, our country and world is becoming overcrowded, war will only get worse as resources become scarce. I feel sorry for our kids who are losing sight of the American Dream.
08-23-2012, 11:39 AM
#27
Melting Slicks
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Please don't bring this economy argument. I look around me and there's plenty of spanking new high end BMW, and Mercies in the 100K range with their dealership plates still on. That's what the average Joe is now aspiring to.
08-23-2012, 12:06 PM
#28
Le Mans Master
Thread Starter
If as you state plenty of new high end cars, then you are in a prosperious part of the US which is quickly becoming a minority. You are in a high tech area most likely, but the manufacturing areas of this nation is suffering and now so are the farmers. Consider yourself, as I do me, fortuate enough to live in a prosperious area and have the skills of a high tech job.
Secondly, you than must agree with me, as this next generation coming onboard are the ones who are going for the high end luxury sport cars, not the two seated ones... Taking your own words, how many C6 Corvettes with dealer plates do you see opposed to what you stated for the BMW and MBs? I bet three of four to one Corvette.
Other parts of this nation are in a serious dilemma. A new Corvette is well beyond their reach, and do you think it will get better?
08-23-2012, 12:19 PM
#29
Le Mans Master
Thread Starter
I have to agree with many of the things the OP stated. I think he is dead on with his facts about our economy and future in general, but I think GM may still produce the Corvette in limited numbers even with a loss, just to have a halo car. They need the Corvette if ONLY for marketing, just like they NEED the racing program even when faced with bankruptcy. They both provide value that can not be put into hard numbers. For example winning Le Mans several times over the past 10 years has REALLY changed much of the European view of the car and brand. For one of the first times, a Corvette ran in FIA GT by European teams and won a couple of championships. For European teams to pick a Corvette to race over Ferrari, Aston, Lambo, Porsche, says quite a lot. GM is gaining respect and it comes earned one race at a time.
I think the big factor here will be the huge decline in middle class over the next 5-10 years. I just think it will be unprecedented in the US history and 90% of the buyer are middle class. People are fighting to pay bills and a mortgage, gone are the days of saving, prosperity and growth. Our infrastruce is crumbling, our country and world is becoming overcrowded, war will only get worse as resources become scarce. I feel sorry for our kids who are losing sight of the American Dream.
I think the big factor here will be the huge decline in middle class over the next 5-10 years. I just think it will be unprecedented in the US history and 90% of the buyer are middle class. People are fighting to pay bills and a mortgage, gone are the days of saving, prosperity and growth. Our infrastruce is crumbling, our country and world is becoming overcrowded, war will only get worse as resources become scarce. I feel sorry for our kids who are losing sight of the American Dream.
Again, I LOVE CORVETTES, but with everything that I hear and read about the condition at GM, I just wanted to have an open and frank discussion of what could be if our nation continues on this path.
Have you noticed at all our own Nation is losing it own identity? Think about our country 50 years ago, how many ethinic restaurants did you go to growing up in the 50/60, usually Chinese. How much Spanish was spoken in the US during this time? How many Mosques did you see in your neighborhood? Diversification and Globalization as taken over and America is slowly losing Baseball, Apple Pie and Hot Dogs, more like
Soccer, Kidney Pie, and Cabase. In the 50/60 did you play baseball or soccer? Did your Dad drive a car from Detriot of Japan? See where this is going.
08-23-2012, 12:19 PM
#30
Le Mans Master
Oh Geez, I just got hit on the head with a piece of the sky.........again.......... 
In reality, the Corvette may evolve into something you or I may not consider to be a traditional "Vette". But, it will soldier on. If someday it is discontinued there are bigger issues/problems to solve. It won't be the end of the world. This is my perspective being 65 years old. And, owning 19+ lifetime Vettes.
In reality, the Corvette may evolve into something you or I may not consider to be a traditional "Vette". But, it will soldier on. If someday it is discontinued there are bigger issues/problems to solve. It won't be the end of the world. This is my perspective being 65 years old. And, owning 19+ lifetime Vettes.
Last edited by 69L79; 09-04-2012 at 02:03 PM.
08-23-2012, 12:20 PM
#31
Le Mans Master
Thread Starter
08-23-2012, 12:47 PM
#32
Le Mans Master
I certainly am a big fan and supporter of the Corvette Racing Team, in my past life when the team first started I personally knew several of the drivers quite well, (I was part of a team in the Motorola/Rolex Cup) racing Corvettes. Racing Corvettes has proven to be an essential part of Corvette development and improvements, heck GM knew that during Trans Am racing in the sixties, but again it comes to economics. Can GM continue this program, and what are GM priorities. It could or could not be racing Corvettes, the future only knows. But given the state of the current economy and the contuing deficit of the Government, the economy still has a long road to recovery. This has a direct effect on disposible income that is used to purchase cars like Corvettes.
Again, I LOVE CORVETTES, but with everything that I hear and read about the condition at GM, I just wanted to have an open and frank discussion of what could be if our nation continues on this path.
Have you noticed at all our own Nation is losing it own identity? Think about our country 50 years ago, how many ethinic restaurants did you go to growing up in the 50/60, usually Chinese. How much Spanish was spoken in the US during this time? How many Mosques did you see in your neighborhood? Diversification and Globalization as taken over and America is slowly losing Baseball, Apple Pie and Hot Dogs, more like
Soccer, Kidney Pie, and Cabase. In the 50/60 did you play baseball or soccer? Did your Dad drive a car from Detriot of Japan? See where this is going.
Again, I LOVE CORVETTES, but with everything that I hear and read about the condition at GM, I just wanted to have an open and frank discussion of what could be if our nation continues on this path.
Have you noticed at all our own Nation is losing it own identity? Think about our country 50 years ago, how many ethinic restaurants did you go to growing up in the 50/60, usually Chinese. How much Spanish was spoken in the US during this time? How many Mosques did you see in your neighborhood? Diversification and Globalization as taken over and America is slowly losing Baseball, Apple Pie and Hot Dogs, more like
Soccer, Kidney Pie, and Cabase. In the 50/60 did you play baseball or soccer? Did your Dad drive a car from Detriot of Japan? See where this is going.
08-23-2012, 12:48 PM
#33
Melting Slicks
Member Since: Jan 2010
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You show no location in your profile, but go tell that to the people in the rust belt up in northern Michigan, Ohio, Penn. etc. Go tell that to the much of the midwest.
If as you state plenty of new high end cars, then you are in a prosperious part of the US which is quickly becoming a minority. You are in a high tech area most likely, but the manufacturing areas of this nation is suffering and now so are the farmers. Consider yourself, as I do me, fortuate enough to live in a prosperious area and have the skills of a high tech job.
Secondly, you than must agree with me, as this next generation coming onboard are the ones who are going for the high end luxury sport cars, not the two seated ones... Taking your own words, how many C6 Corvettes with dealer plates do you see opposed to what you stated for the BMW and MBs? I bet three of four to one Corvette.
Other parts of this nation are in a serious dilemma. A new Corvette is well beyond their reach, and do you think it will get better?
If as you state plenty of new high end cars, then you are in a prosperious part of the US which is quickly becoming a minority. You are in a high tech area most likely, but the manufacturing areas of this nation is suffering and now so are the farmers. Consider yourself, as I do me, fortuate enough to live in a prosperious area and have the skills of a high tech job.
Secondly, you than must agree with me, as this next generation coming onboard are the ones who are going for the high end luxury sport cars, not the two seated ones... Taking your own words, how many C6 Corvettes with dealer plates do you see opposed to what you stated for the BMW and MBs? I bet three of four to one Corvette.
Other parts of this nation are in a serious dilemma. A new Corvette is well beyond their reach, and do you think it will get better?
My point is that there's still a lot of money being spent on expensive cars (regardless of the regional disparities). And I find it sad that it almost goes exclusively to German brands, and Lexus also. You won't heal the situation by downscaling the Corvette. On the contrary, it has to come back in the minds of youngsters as something to aim for. And as the motto says: "Aim high". So sadly for people who can't afford it, it has to go upscale.
08-23-2012, 12:51 PM
#34
Le Mans Master
I certainly am a big fan and supporter of the Corvette Racing Team, in my past life when the team first started I personally knew several of the drivers quite well, (I was part of a team in the Motorola/Rolex Cup) racing Corvettes. Racing Corvettes has proven to be an essential part of Corvette development and improvements, heck GM knew that during Trans Am racing in the sixties, but again it comes to economics. Can GM continue this program, and what are GM priorities. It could or could not be racing Corvettes, the future only knows. But given the state of the current economy and the contuing deficit of the Government, the economy still has a long road to recovery. This has a direct effect on disposible income that is used to purchase cars like Corvettes.
Again, I LOVE CORVETTES, but with everything that I hear and read about the condition at GM, I just wanted to have an open and frank discussion of what could be if our nation continues on this path.
Have you noticed at all our own Nation is losing it own identity? Think about our country 50 years ago, how many ethinic restaurants did you go to growing up in the 50/60, usually Chinese. How much Spanish was spoken in the US during this time? How many Mosques did you see in your neighborhood? Diversification and Globalization as taken over and America is slowly losing Baseball, Apple Pie and Hot Dogs, more like
Soccer, Kidney Pie, and Cabase. In the 50/60 did you play baseball or soccer? Did your Dad drive a car from Detriot of Japan? See where this is going.
Again, I LOVE CORVETTES, but with everything that I hear and read about the condition at GM, I just wanted to have an open and frank discussion of what could be if our nation continues on this path.
Have you noticed at all our own Nation is losing it own identity? Think about our country 50 years ago, how many ethinic restaurants did you go to growing up in the 50/60, usually Chinese. How much Spanish was spoken in the US during this time? How many Mosques did you see in your neighborhood? Diversification and Globalization as taken over and America is slowly losing Baseball, Apple Pie and Hot Dogs, more like
Soccer, Kidney Pie, and Cabase. In the 50/60 did you play baseball or soccer? Did your Dad drive a car from Detriot of Japan? See where this is going.
08-23-2012, 12:52 PM
#35
Le Mans Master
Thread Starter
I know I don't live in a typical area. I'm in one of the several affluent areas of California. I truly empathize with the Rust Belt; and I was totally in favor of the bailout so to provide relief to the region.
My point is that there's still a lot of money being spent on expensive cars (regardless of the regional disparities). And I find it sad that it almost goes exclusively to German brands, and Lexus also. You won't heal the situation by downscaling the Corvette. On the contrary, it has to come back in the minds of youngsters as something to aim for. And as the motto says: "Aim high". So sadly for people who can't afford it, it has to go upscale.
My point is that there's still a lot of money being spent on expensive cars (regardless of the regional disparities). And I find it sad that it almost goes exclusively to German brands, and Lexus also. You won't heal the situation by downscaling the Corvette. On the contrary, it has to come back in the minds of youngsters as something to aim for. And as the motto says: "Aim high". So sadly for people who can't afford it, it has to go upscale.
08-23-2012, 12:54 PM
#36
Le Mans Master
Thread Starter
I have a feeling you and I feel the same way, and it is sickening to think what is ahead of us unless we get smart quick.
Somebody on this forum just posted a link to GM's CEO Akerson wanting to make GM MORE GLOBAL, and appeal to the rest of the world....I did not read this before my OP....but falls in line with what I am talking about. Why does GM have to be more Global, why not more American?
Somebody on this forum just posted a link to GM's CEO Akerson wanting to make GM MORE GLOBAL, and appeal to the rest of the world....I did not read this before my OP....but falls in line with what I am talking about. Why does GM have to be more Global, why not more American?
Last edited by 1KULC7; 08-23-2012 at 12:59 PM.
08-23-2012, 01:06 PM
#37
Racer
Yes, the economy is bad but there are plenty of high end products selling well including sports/luxury vehicles. The only things that really matter in the end are sales volumes and profitability. If the C7 does not achieve its sales and financial goals I don't think halo car arguments are going to be enough to save it, not in the new GM. This company is still in trouble and they will be looking to shed more of the losers. Let's hope Corvette isn't one of them. If it is, it is possible that another car maker could buy the brand.
Last edited by BobRBob; 08-23-2012 at 01:08 PM.
08-23-2012, 01:29 PM
#38
Le Mans Master
Thread Starter
Yes, the economy is bad but there are plenty of high end products selling well including sports/luxury vehicles. The only things that really matter in the end are sales volumes and profitability. If the C7 does not achieve its sales and financial goals I don't think halo car arguments are going to be enough to save it, not in the new GM. This company is still in trouble and they will be looking to shed more of the losers. Let's hope Corvette isn't one of them. If it is, it is possible that another car maker could buy the brand.
08-23-2012, 03:27 PM
#39
Team Owner
They may need 25 thousand dollar rebates to keep it alive. The prices of these cars has gone out of sight. I looked at a new coupe the other day, nice car, 68 thousand dollars, get real. That kinda pricing won't work and obviously isn't working. Anyone who disagrees need only look at their sales volume.
Paid $34,000 for my 1988 Vette, so figure 24 years later at 3% inflation the price should double -- voila, $68,000.
I think the actual number is larger than the impact vs. yesteryear.
08-23-2012, 04:08 PM
#40
Melting Slicks
My glass of Corvette juice is half full.