Do you think the Base C7 outperform the ZL1?
08-29-2012, 11:18 AM
#21
Le Mans Master
Optional sounds nice... So does not waiting til model year 15 or 16 for a competitive straight line vehicle that won't get beat out by the ZL1 GT500 and put itself in a situation where anything from a WRX Subaru can make it a drivers race.
2. WRX Subaru??? Now you're being ridiculous.
.Jinx
08-29-2012, 11:50 AM
#22
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I think Corvette's nuances will be much more important to its success than which theoretical bone-stock drag races it wins and which it loses.
Corvette can afford to be a tick or two slower than Brand X's numbers-driven ponycar; it can't afford less than great steering feel or less than confident handling at the limit or less than impressive interior appointment.
Corvette can afford to be a tick or two slower than Brand X's numbers-driven ponycar; it can't afford less than great steering feel or less than confident handling at the limit or less than impressive interior appointment.
08-29-2012, 12:12 PM
#23
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I never get these kind of threads. If someone is concerned solely with objective performance data, especially straight line performance, just figure out what the maximum amount you're willing to pay for a sports car is, eliminate all cars that are even a Penney more than this number, and buy then buy the car that is fastest, even if it is faster by only 0.00001 sec. When a new car comes out that is below your maximum price, find out if it is marginally faster (0.0000001 sec), and if it is then trade your old "slow" car in for that marginally faster car. Simple. Then again, you could wake up and see that there is plenty more to sports car than stopwatches and tape measures.
How so? In what specific terms? Are you competing in races where there is prize money for the winner, meaning the "it matters" relates to winning money? Or maybe the award is trophies? Are personal trophies what matters? And if straight away performance matters even on the track then just buy the car that you think will have the lowest lap times and be done with it. When a car comes out that is marginally better in terms of lap times, buy it. Of course the "lap time" discussion always seems to be about "the car" and seldom about "the driver", so maybe if you want lower lap times you should start with the man in the mirror.
08-29-2012, 01:09 PM
#24
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GM can tout the Vette as their halo sports car because a great sports car is not all about straight line performance; it's not even all about cornering performance. In fact, it's not all about objective (stopwatch and tape measure) performance.
I never get these kind of threads. If someone is concerned solely with objective performance data, especially straight line performance, just figure out what the maximum amount you're willing to pay for a sports car is, eliminate all cars that are even a Penney more than this number, and buy then buy the car that is fastest, even if it is faster by only 0.00001 sec. When a new car comes out that is below your maximum price, find out if it is marginally faster (0.0000001 sec), and if it is then trade your old "slow" car in for that marginally faster car. Simple. Then again, you could wake up and see that there is plenty more to sports car than stopwatches and tape measures.
How so? In what specific terms? Are you competing in races where there is prize money for the winner, meaning the "it matters" relates to winning money? Or maybe the award is trophies? Are personal trophies what matters? And if straight away performance matters even on the track then just buy the car that you think will have the lowest lap times and be done with it. When a car comes out that is marginally better in terms of lap times, buy it. Of course the "lap time" discussion always seems to be about "the car" and seldom about "the driver", so maybe if you want lower lap times you should start with the man in the mirror.
I never get these kind of threads. If someone is concerned solely with objective performance data, especially straight line performance, just figure out what the maximum amount you're willing to pay for a sports car is, eliminate all cars that are even a Penney more than this number, and buy then buy the car that is fastest, even if it is faster by only 0.00001 sec. When a new car comes out that is below your maximum price, find out if it is marginally faster (0.0000001 sec), and if it is then trade your old "slow" car in for that marginally faster car. Simple. Then again, you could wake up and see that there is plenty more to sports car than stopwatches and tape measures.
How so? In what specific terms? Are you competing in races where there is prize money for the winner, meaning the "it matters" relates to winning money? Or maybe the award is trophies? Are personal trophies what matters? And if straight away performance matters even on the track then just buy the car that you think will have the lowest lap times and be done with it. When a car comes out that is marginally better in terms of lap times, buy it. Of course the "lap time" discussion always seems to be about "the car" and seldom about "the driver", so maybe if you want lower lap times you should start with the man in the mirror.
If there is direct confirmation however of a C7 ZO6 being released soon after though I will simply wait for that. 105k in model year 15 is a perfect price range for me at the moment. And I always get my cars fully loaded. I would wager the Z06 would at the very least be a direct competetor for the GTR.
08-29-2012, 01:54 PM
#26
Race Director
The zl1 is a mid to high 12 sec car. That 11.9 was a hero run with DR. 1.69 60ft on street tires? lol yeah right I have a bridge for sale for cheap if ANYONE believes that. Drivers race in a ls2 but a ls3/ls7/ls9 no way..
08-29-2012, 01:56 PM
#27
It would be nice if the C7 were faster than the ZL1, but it's not by any means a necessity IMO. If GM delivers on its quality/design promises and the economy picks up, the Corvette should sell strongly at 20-30k units in its first couple of years regardless of whether the ZL1 (which will by then be relatively old hat) is marginally faster.
Nothing wrong with using the Corvette as a hybridization platform for touting new technologies for fuel economy. Times have changed, and people's expectations of sports cars have changed. Besides, that "liberal administration" was merely carrying out many of the concerns that originated within the conservative administration before it. It wasn't like Bush was ready to throw out billions to the auto companies without a comittment to fundamental changes in business plans.
08-29-2012, 02:21 PM
#28
Le Mans Master
GM is not worried about losing Corvette sales to the ZL1, because they make money either way.
GM is not worried about losing Corvette sales to the CTS-V, because they make money either way.
If the next-generation Mustang turns out to be a real threat to Corvette sales, GM will turn up the wick. Not before.
What other sub-$80K unmodified new cars threaten to make Corvette look so slow that it suffers in the showroom?
.Jinx
08-29-2012, 02:37 PM
#29
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The only time I have known it to hit 11s are hero runs for magazines and the General Motors claim and that also didn't have radials.
With radials 11s can be done by a non pro.
GTRs have hit 10s stock with no radials because of AWD and the whole radial route is actually laughed at in the GTR community regarding the ZL1 for the exact reason you guys state. If your counting Drag Radial times against street tires your cheating in alot of eyes because that's not stock.
As for Jinx your right. I just hope your wrong about them turning it up AFTER and not before. I stand by my expectations and hopes I would like a ZL1 level straight line performer with the optional yellow stitching to go with my GM Yellow Corvette.
The ZL1 interior is not customizable as it should be at 60k and that is my biggest gripe given I want an all yellow sports car.
We will see obviously we have different expecations but I have seen what GM can do with a Camaro and I would hope they can match the same numbers (Not exact horsepower) but enough to evenly match it given the weight difference.
As for sub 80k your right.
Last edited by HZ3; 08-29-2012 at 02:53 PM.
08-30-2012, 07:53 AM
#30
Team Owner
Do you guys think the base C7 will outperform the ZL1 Camaro in the quarter mile and the track?
Right now although GM is claiming high 11s the car is running very low 12s stock. The magnetic ride suspension however makes it the best handling Muscle Car around the turns (I know oxymoron) even edging out the GT500.
I am curious if the Base Vette will outperform at least the ZL1 and post mid high 11s easily. As for handling I wonder if its weight reduction will allow it to beat the ZL1 around the corners.
Right now although GM is claiming high 11s the car is running very low 12s stock. The magnetic ride suspension however makes it the best handling Muscle Car around the turns (I know oxymoron) even edging out the GT500.
I am curious if the Base Vette will outperform at least the ZL1 and post mid high 11s easily. As for handling I wonder if its weight reduction will allow it to beat the ZL1 around the corners.
So by 2014 the base C7 could have it's hands fully with either pony car.
08-30-2012, 08:46 AM
#31
Burning Brakes
Yeah that was generation 6 which was designed before an LSA powered Camaro or CTS-V could clear high 11s (with a ringer driving) while the ZL1 get sbetter times than an older Z06 C6 Corvette around the Ring.
Base Corvettes aren't really known for anything in their price point anymore except for dated numbers and multiple options that can beat them in several different categories performance wise. Do they handle well? Sure... Do they handle better than anything else in the market or even better than anything within their own company? Nope
It's hardly absurd given GM has released a CTS V that runs Twelve even and a ZL1 running the same (Without optimal conditions) around 60k that weigh in at 4k pounds.
If GM really cuts out a Z06 this generation and aims for similar performance numbers this car won't compete unless you want to blow 115k and wait 3 years for the ZR1 equiv.
If you have any factual counterpoints and would like to discuss this like an adult I'm all ears. No need to get defensive and start in with the movie quotes
Base Corvettes aren't really known for anything in their price point anymore except for dated numbers and multiple options that can beat them in several different categories performance wise. Do they handle well? Sure... Do they handle better than anything else in the market or even better than anything within their own company? Nope
It's hardly absurd given GM has released a CTS V that runs Twelve even and a ZL1 running the same (Without optimal conditions) around 60k that weigh in at 4k pounds.
If GM really cuts out a Z06 this generation and aims for similar performance numbers this car won't compete unless you want to blow 115k and wait 3 years for the ZR1 equiv.
If you have any factual counterpoints and would like to discuss this like an adult I'm all ears. No need to get defensive and start in with the movie quotes
Time/technology marches on, what was fast a decade ago is now eclipsed.
If the first couple of years of the C7 don't look like they match up, I suspect GM will update the powertrain about 3 years in or so, kind of like they did with the LS2/LS3 update for the Vette.
08-30-2012, 08:48 AM
#32
Burning Brakes
That's assuming the ZL1 remains at 580HP. Keep in mind the ZL1 is a 2012 MY vehicle and in 2013 the GT500 will bring 650HP to the game. I would think that by 2014 the Camaro will need to add more HP to equal or best the Ford.
So by 2014 the base C7 could have it's hands fully with either pony car.
So by 2014 the base C7 could have it's hands fully with either pony car.
Those marketing guys will make sure you get what you pay for. You want to beat a 60K car? You will need a 70K Vette. Yikes.
Last edited by thirtythird; 08-30-2012 at 08:51 AM.
08-30-2012, 08:59 AM
#33
Burning Brakes
Its actually low twelves with a good driver and no radials.
The only time I have known it to hit 11s are hero runs for magazines and the General Motors claim and that also didn't have radials.
With radials 11s can be done by a non pro.
GTRs have hit 10s stock with no radials because of AWD and the whole radial route is actually laughed at in the GTR community regarding the ZL1 for the exact reason you guys state. If your counting Drag Radial times against street tires your cheating in alot of eyes because that's not stock.
...
The only time I have known it to hit 11s are hero runs for magazines and the General Motors claim and that also didn't have radials.
With radials 11s can be done by a non pro.
GTRs have hit 10s stock with no radials because of AWD and the whole radial route is actually laughed at in the GTR community regarding the ZL1 for the exact reason you guys state. If your counting Drag Radial times against street tires your cheating in alot of eyes because that's not stock.
...
I wonder if it is the same group that laughs when they boost their STi and beat stock Vettes or other cars that cost much more than what they paid.
Seems to me like the tables got reversed with this example.
Last edited by thirtythird; 08-30-2012 at 09:02 AM.
08-30-2012, 09:39 AM
#34
Le Mans Master
I got my base coupe for low 40's back in 07. It was a fantastic value price/performance back then. Now, I agree, there are many more options available that can perform better, but the price is usually over 50K to beat that car.
Time/technology marches on, what was fast a decade ago is now eclipsed.
Time/technology marches on, what was fast a decade ago is now eclipsed.
08-30-2012, 10:19 AM
#35
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That's assuming the ZL1 remains at 580HP. Keep in mind the ZL1 is a 2012 MY vehicle and in 2013 the GT500 will bring 650HP to the game. I would think that by 2014 the Camaro will need to add more HP to equal or best the Ford.
So by 2014 the base C7 could have it's hands fully with either pony car.
So by 2014 the base C7 could have it's hands fully with either pony car.
Also the GT500 already has brought it as its readily available at Ford Dealerships for the allocation.
08-30-2012, 12:10 PM
#36
Team Owner
Why compare a base C7 to the top of the line pony cars? The mid-tier Vette should be what we would want to compare. Not sure what that is at the moment.
Those marketing guys will make sure you get what you pay for. You want to beat a 60K car? You will need a 70K Vette. Yikes.
Those marketing guys will make sure you get what you pay for. You want to beat a 60K car? You will need a 70K Vette. Yikes.
Can't compare vapor ware to cars sitting in the showroom.
08-31-2012, 01:54 AM
#37
Burning Brakes
Not sure what your point is. I was trying to say that as the base vette encroaches the 50K range it will compete performance wise with other cars, including some GM. Just from a HP standpoint, and possibly 0-60 and 1/4 mile times.
40-45K was a great place to be for a base Vette. If that gets pushed to 50K+, you lose a lot of customers either because the starting point is too high for any toy car (if it is not your DD) and are competing with other performance options in that price range.
I was looking at a GT500 when I decided to buy a Vette, so in my case, those were the two competing cars even though everyone loves to say they do not compete for buyers.
08-31-2012, 02:56 AM
#38
Le Mans Master
My point is simple: there is a whole lot of hand-wringing over Corvette's stablemates and one other car, the GT500. One. Not many more, not lots, one. And it only achieved Corvette-beating numbers in C6's final year of production.
Am I missing anything?
Am I missing anything?
08-31-2012, 11:34 AM
#40
Race Director
Not sure what your point is. I was trying to say that as the base vette encroaches the 50K range it will compete performance wise with other cars, including some GM. Just from a HP standpoint, and possibly 0-60 and 1/4 mile times.
40-45K was a great place to be for a base Vette. If that gets pushed to 50K+, you lose a lot of customers either because the starting point is too high for any toy car (if it is not your DD) and are competing with other performance options in that price range.
I was looking at a GT500 when I decided to buy a Vette, so in my case, those were the two competing cars even though everyone loves to say they do not compete for buyers.
40-45K was a great place to be for a base Vette. If that gets pushed to 50K+, you lose a lot of customers either because the starting point is too high for any toy car (if it is not your DD) and are competing with other performance options in that price range.
I was looking at a GT500 when I decided to buy a Vette, so in my case, those were the two competing cars even though everyone loves to say they do not compete for buyers.
Last edited by meadowz06; 08-31-2012 at 11:36 AM.