HZ3

Do you guys think the base C7 will outperform the ZL1 Camaro in the quarter mile and the track?

Right now although GM is claiming high 11s the car is running very low 12s stock. The magnetic ride suspension however makes it the best handling Muscle Car around the turns (I know oxymoron) even edging out the GT500.

I am curious if the Base Vette will outperform at least the ZL1 and post mid high 11s easily. As for handling I wonder if its weight reduction will allow it to beat the ZL1 around the corners.

Badluck33

I'm guessing 480+ HP and its a corvette so the handling will be superb.

JockItch

I would say definitely yes to both questions, especially if the base car has available 3rd gen MRC. The base C6 already competes very closely to the ZL1 in the quarter mile.

Jinx

The base C6 is roughly equivalent to CTS-V, so I don't think it's a stretch to think the base C7 as good a match for the ZL1.

But I don't think it was a specific development goal to outshine it.

.Jinx

HZ3

As an Camaro owner I appreciate that as well.

There is room enough in the Chevy stable for an amazing Muscle Car and Corvette that both rock.


Still I am of the mindset that a natural evolution of such a reputable vehicle should at the very least try and beat the ZL1 at this point given it will have a year and a half since its sale at Dealerships from the estimated first time we see the C7 Corvette being sold to improve itself.

Low 12s like the Z is running isn't very impressive given GTRs can hit 10s stock without drag radials and the GT500 is beating it by a landslide... it's a great track car and a wonderful platform to start modding though but still it's a hybridization and not a specialized quarter mile killer or track star

Add weight reduction when the new Mustang is released with a comparable engine and a base Corvette won't be very competitive if they shelve the Z06 for this generation you will have a Viper Competitor and a car that can't even beat GMs best muscle car as your only options in the Corvette line. Leaving an entire segment untouched for a generation if they don't aim high.

Basically if you want a Vette and you want to win you will have to pay 100+k which is my big concern.

Jinx

Sounds like bench racing to me. I think Corvette's nuances will be much more important to its success than which theoretical bone-stock drag races it wins and which it loses.

Corvette can afford to be a tick or two slower than Brand X's numbers-driven ponycar; it can't afford less than great steering feel or less than confident handling at the limit or less than impressive interior appointment.

HZ3

Bench Racing is what the ZL1 suffers from it is actually slower than they advertise. If GM can't build a single car in the 11s within the most affordable populated demographic it's arguably negligent compared to Ford who seems to be creeping up on an unseen demographic 60-70k 11s

Given the ZL1 already handles well at the limit with Magnetic Ride Suspension they should quit worrying about fuel economy and concern themselves with at least matching performance numbers of the CURRENT generation of cars within its demographic considering the myriad of lineups that are planning on a full model revamp within the next few years.

It doesn't need to match GT500 performance levels because the car handles poorly around turns comparably to even a 4000 pound ZL1 but instead of focusing on the hybridization of all around performance they should increase power levels to at least plan for the next 4 years.

Now this is only IF they don't release a Z06 if they can manage a 600HP Z06 with optioned out weight reduction I say stick to the age old formula and at the very least aim for high 11s while compensating by increasing base MSRP by 5k for the interior.

You get what you pay for. I don't want to see performance skip a generation over a CUE.

Hell if you can sell 550HP LSAs for 60-70k why can't you package that in a smaller weight reduced vehicle? The CTSV even has a nicer interior.

BlueOx

I think it should be a tick faster than the ZL1, especially considering it should be almost 1000 lbs lighter than the ZL1. Whether it will be or not is open to speculation.

Jinx

HZ3, you type a lot of stuff, but I just keep seeing "I live my life a quarter-mile at a time." Corvette's quarter-mile performance is a sideline, a fringe benefit, not the car's mission.

Performance skipping a generation? Absurd.

HZ3

Yeah that was generation 6 which was designed before an LSA powered Camaro or CTS-V could clear high 11s (with a ringer driving) while the ZL1 get sbetter times than an older Z06 C6 Corvette around the Ring.

Base Corvettes aren't really known for anything in their price point anymore except for dated numbers and multiple options that can beat them in several different categories performance wise. Do they handle well? Sure... Do they handle better than anything else in the market or even better than anything within their own company? Nope

It's hardly absurd given GM has released a CTS V that runs Twelve even and a ZL1 running the same (Without optimal conditions) around 60k that weigh in at 4k pounds.

If GM really cuts out a Z06 this generation and aims for similar performance numbers this car won't compete unless you want to blow 115k and wait 3 years for the ZR1 equiv.

If you have any factual counterpoints and would like to discuss this like an adult I'm all ears. No need to get defensive and start in with the movie quotes

BlueOx

Well then, take a base Vette, a base Camaro, and a base CTS and have a go! See who wins on a track. BTW, what are a base Camaro or CTS known for performance-wise?

HZ3

Good point

Jawnathin

If you weren't aware, the original Z06 times were done from a standing start. Manufacturers have since started doing flying laps and the most recent Z06/ZR1/ZL1 lap times reflect that. It would not be an accurate comparison to use the ZL1 flying lap vs Z06 standing start times as a reference point of performance.


http://media.gm.com/media/us/en/chev...te_racing.html

OnPoint

HZ3,

I think your question is a good one. And I agree with you - given the relative ranking of the two admittedly different products, even with different missions, a base C7 should be on par to slightly quicker than the ZL1, and should out handle it (be faster/quicker than it) on a track.

I'm confident the C7 will do the latter. And it should (and I hope it does) do the former as well, even if just barely (this is of course setting aside the C7 ZR).

Jinx

So the 2005 C6 Z51 runs the Ring about the same time as the 2009 CTS-V. It took Cadillac four years to catch up to Corvette. Of course, a 436hp C6 Z51 hasn't made a run at the Ring...

So the 2006 C6 Z06 runs the Ring a tick slower than the 2012 Camaro ZL1. It took Camaro six years to catch up to Corvette. Of course, newer Z06s have run at the Ring... BTW, that was the first Camaro to run faster than that 2005 C6 -- the SS was 20 seconds off-pace IIRC -- so it's fair to say Camaro took SEVEN years to catch up to Corvette.

I don't know what kind of Ring time the properly-equipped C7 will achieve or what its MSRP will be, but I do know it's a lock to be a much better sports car than the CTS-V or the ZL1.

Oh look, you're equating performance to quarter-mile times again.

Your definition of "compete" seems narrow to me. Only stock, only quarter-mile / stoplight performance. It's the kind of definition that sells cars to a very small slice of the market.

I have little doubt that C7 performance will be good enough to earn it respect and sales, albeit maybe not from you, regardless of exactly where its published acceleration time puts it compared to a couple of low-volume niche cars.

.Jinx

HZ3

Well I would certainly hope so given how heavy both the ZL1 and CTS-V are. As for the point you bring up that they had four years I agree 100%.

The Corvette has had years to improve technology and in fact has existing platforms that show they could easily raise the baseline feasibly.

While I admit straight line performance is a major selling point and must absolutely at the very least hit twelve even for me to even consider my next vehicle handling does matter.

But the same argument you make for the C7 is valid for the hybridization known at the ZL1. Improvements in MRS have made it so a 4k car can outhandle a Base Corvette. With weight reduction in the cards they should at least put in an engine with enough horsepower to hit the highest of 11s with a good driver.

I just hope the Corvette comes swinging as hard as the ZL1 did yet harder in straight line performance. My biggest frustration lately is the touting of fuel economy in a Corvette when they are releasing Gas Guzzling 4k+ Muscle Cars that can compete. Vette shouldn't be where you cut corners for fuel emissions ratings in your lineup. I am no political expert but if General Motors hadn't been bailed out by a liberal administration I would bet they would be focusing more on overall performance. That's just a guess.

Either way high 11s will be standard in that pricepoint in 4 years and its starting to offer options now. I just hope the car comes in as an overall performer and not a glorified Impreza WRX

CPhelps

I would say the odds are extremely likely that the C7 will have the latest MRC at least optional. As you say, it makes the ZL1 handle well, image what it will do with a car that weighs 1000 # less.

Another point of interest, a 3200# car (I personally am hoping that with the aluminum frame and rumored focus on weight that C7 may even be lighter than this) only needs ~450 hp to match the ZL1's power to weight ratio.

I personally still have hope that we will get a ~3100 # C7 with MRC and a 6.2L Gen V sbc making 470+ hp. A car like this with the gearing and aero to back it up should not have trouble besting the ZL1 in most any performance category.

JoesC5

The base 1967 Corvette with it's 300 HP 327ci could not out perform the Camaro with the 375 HP 396 ci engine. If you wanted a 1967 Corvette that could, then you ordered the OPTIONAL 435 HP 427 ci engine.

That's been the way GM's been doing business for years.

HZ3

If you can't beat a 4k weighted beast in a straight line in a car that weighs in a little over 3k when it costs 60k loaded and touts itself as the Halo Sports Car of the brand that's under achieving.

Optional sounds nice... So does not waiting til model year 15 or 16 for a competitive straight line vehicle that won't get beat out by the ZL1 GT500 and put itself in a situation where anything from a WRX Subaru can make it a drivers race.

However I doubt they will offer multiple engines from the get go...

They went from 400 to 580 to compete with the GT500 with the Camaro.

They can at least match ZL1 performance given the weight difference if they want. Straight away performance matters even on a track.

DRC

Yes, the C7 I'm sure will be a real quality sports car, should out handle a ZL1 Camaro, probably match the 1/4 mile.

But, I think more and more the Corvette is no longer a Vette, that American Muscle image is now with the Camaro. GM I think wants the Corvette buyer to be a previous buyer of a Porsche, Jag, etc., and that buyer probably has no idea what a 69 Camaro, 67 Vette, 70 LS6 Chevelle, and so on was. Just my opinion.