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Old 12-11-2012, 10:36 AM   #1
QUIKAG
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Default A little bit of inside info on the 'possible' C7 ZR1

This isn't as juicy as the other info on the brakes and the person I spoke with was very evasive about any details at all on the C7 ZR1, but I did get a little bit of info from him/her.

-There is not yet a definitive green light on the C7 ZR1 (or equivalent), but it's highly likely for obvious reasons (success of the C6 ZR1).

-There are only two prototypes built at this time of what could 'potentially' be the C7 ZR1.

-They haven't decided on the engine, but I asked some very pointed questions and I looked for nonverbal cues on 'his/her' face. I asked whether the engine was going to be forced induction or a very high revving NA engine and I got a very slight smile. I don't know how to read that. He/she insinuated final decisions haven't been made which led me to believe they are still considering BOTH avenues. I pressed and said I would personally think it would be quite hard to achieve horsepower/durability targets with a naturally aspirated engine and the guy went on a very small tangent and said in the future, it's not going to always be about horsepower, but weight, efficiency, and other factors while still achieving huge performance targets.

I then asked since the LT1 is a clean sheet and the issues they have with the LS-based engine and the turbo C6 ZR1 mules burning to the ground, I would think GM could have factored turbocharged application into the LT1 architecture. The 'person' at that point just gave me a blank look and didn't say anything. So, again not sure how to read that?!?!

-3rd generation magnetic suspension is going to have a much broader range between comfort mode and sport mode. So, get ready for a truly Cadillac comfy ride in tour mode and rock and roll performance mode at the other end.

-dual clutch transmission- one 'person' said it's 8-speed normal automatic at this point and dual-clutch is on the shelf for now. I asked another person who seemed to be more knowledgeable 'person' about how awesome it would be to have a dual-clutch transmission at least in the Z06 and ZR1 equivalents. He/she agreed that it would be nice, but didn't give anything else away, so I don't know. I think GM Powertrain is really working hard on it, but the base model Vette is going to have a 7-speed manual and a 'normal' 8-speed automatic. I don't think that is new info.

That's about all the info I got. Certainly interesting stuff coming up soon though and it's a GREAT time to be a Corvette fan.

Last edited by QUIKAG; 12-11-2012 at 10:39 AM.
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Old 12-11-2012, 10:55 AM   #2
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So what we know is...



We don't know anything.
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Old 12-11-2012, 11:11 AM   #3
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Now, my question is, is GM going to unveil their plans for other models at the C7 introduction night or is it something that might drag on till the car gets to showroom around fall?
I hope/wish the full lineup is disclosed, so we can plan accordingly.
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Old 12-11-2012, 11:29 AM   #4
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Now, my question is, is GM going to unveil their plans for other models at the C7 introduction night or is it something that might drag on till the car gets to showroom around fall?
I hope/wish the full lineup is disclosed, so we can plan accordingly.
They probably won't as they like to drag stuff out and really, why should they if they are trying to get the initial base C7 established.
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Old 12-11-2012, 11:34 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by Z_Rocks View Post
Now, my question is, is GM going to unveil their plans for other models at the C7 introduction night or is it something that might drag on till the car gets to showroom around fall?
I hope/wish the full lineup is disclosed, so we can plan accordingly.
Probably not. They are going to want to sell what is available now. It makes no sense to have consumers wait 2-4 years to part with their money.

Last edited by Carver Electrics; 12-11-2012 at 11:14 PM.
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Old 12-11-2012, 11:38 AM   #6
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So what we know is...



We don't know anything.
Yeah, pretty much, but the guy gave some strong nonverbal cues that GM powertrain is still considering a naturally aspirated ZR1 engine, which I found surprising.

For reference, one of the best NA engines on the planet right now is the 458 Italia Ferrari. It makes 563hp and the engine is 4.5L of displacement. It also revs to NINE THOUSAND RPM.

So, that is 125hp/ltr. Let's say GM goes crazy and does a 5.5L engine that revs a little north of 8,000rpm. What sort of volumetric efficiency does the LT1 block have? So, the LT9 engine is going to have unbelieveable efficiency with crazy high flowing heads and all the other goodies to go along with that. So, to make 650hp (which is only 12hp more) NA, the LT9 engine would have to make 118hp/ltr out of 5.5L of displacement?

Is that possible? Of course it is. Is it feasible though while meeting cost/durability/reliability requirements? I don't know.

I would think a nice 5.5L turbocharged engine making 680-700hp that revs out to 7,000rpm would be a perfect C7 ZR1 engine. Huge torque, probably more durable over the long haul?!?! I don't know though.

Honestly, it would be sweet to have a crazy NA engine that revs to the moon and sounds very tight and tweaked as it revs out and makes big horsepower. Strap an engine like that to a top shelf dual clutch transmission and sell it for under $150k and you'd probably have a lot of takers, me included.
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Old 12-11-2012, 11:43 AM   #7
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They probably won't as they like to drag stuff out and really, why should they if they are trying to get the initial base C7 established.
You're right looking at it from their point of view but I'd say [perhaps the way I come to final decision & commitmet] is when I have most of the facts in front of me at the time of decision making.
For example If I know next month whether, there is or isn't going to be any Z06 in the lineup, then I can make a decision much sooner and won't consider any other car, however by not providing that, I'd delay that decision which potentially means no commitment to C7 lineup until I know for sure. GM can risk this lack of commitment by not laying all the cards up front. Just my two cents.
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Old 12-11-2012, 11:50 AM   #8
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You're right looking at it from their point of view but I'd say [perhaps the way I come to final decision & commitmet] is when I have most of the facts in front of me at the time of decision making.
For example If I know next month whether, there is or isn't going to be any Z06 in the lineup, then I can make a decision much sooner and won't consider any other car, however by not providing that, I'd delay that decision which potentially means no commitment to C7 lineup until I know for sure. GM can risk this lack of commitment by not laying all the cards up front. Just my two cents.
I'm just stating it from GM's historical approach.

I would like them to lay it all out and I see your point but part of the decision-making process about how they go forward is how the economy is doing, how the consumer and competition reacts to the C7, etc, etc. In other words, they may just not be ready.

I just can't believe there will not be a higher-powered version and Keeks has said 2015/2016 will be the higher powered version...here is a pic of the LT1 in place...
Click the image to open in full size.

...and here is the next, higher-powered LT engine in place...
Click the image to open in full size.

Last edited by BlueOx; 12-11-2012 at 12:00 PM.
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Old 12-11-2012, 11:50 AM   #9
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Appreciate the update. I like the lighter, better handling idea. HP only gets you so much on the track.
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Old 12-11-2012, 11:58 AM   #10
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I'm just stating it from GM's historical approach.

I would like them to lay it all out and I see your point but part of the decision-making process about how they go forward is how the economy is doing, how the consumer and competition reacts to the C7, etc, etc. In other words, they may just not be ready.
Yes, yes! I think you're right. It's not like 10 years ago when everything was blooming at the time. I had owned Z06's before and not the base, however I had driven the base C5 & C6 and would much rather to own the Z06 level. It's so much more hard core than the base. I don't need to go to ZR1 level, the Z06 [for me] it's in a perfect spot. *However*, with all the new stuff in C7 base, it sounds very close to Z06 combined, and perhaps there may not be a Z06, just a bigger jump to ZR1. This is what I like to know at least, if Z06 is absolutely out.
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Old 12-11-2012, 12:00 PM   #11
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Appreciate the update. I like the lighter, better handling idea. HP only gets you so much on the track.
There are absolutely some benefits to going naturally aspirated. What if they get 600hp of a high revving 5.5L engine. That's 109hp/ltr which can be achieved I'm sure. Strap that to a dual-clutch paddle shift transmission. With the lack of blower or turbos and all the associated plumbing, plus easier cooling, it's POSSIBLE they could get the weight down to 3,000lbs or so, right? C6 Z06 is roughly 3,150. So, GM cuts 150 more lbs on the C7.

So, at that point, you have a 600hp 5.5L NA engine, dual clutch, 3,000lbs C7 ZR1. At 5lbs/hp, it has a better power to weight than the current ZR1. The engine won't heat up like my C6 ZR1 at the track, lighter weight, so better chance for the brakes to work longer, etc. The Corvette racecars GM uses are naturally aspirated 5.5L engines. Hmmmm......

The more I think about it, the more innovative and exciting a nice NA engine would on the ZR1 with the associated weight reduction, better cooling, etc. As a C6 ZR1 owner, I wouldn't care at all if the engine horsepower was actually a little less than my current LS9 if I got all the other benefits mentioned above.

Last edited by QUIKAG; 12-11-2012 at 12:04 PM.
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Old 12-11-2012, 12:03 PM   #12
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Yes, yes! I think you're right. It's not like 10 years ago when everything was blooming at the time. I had owned Z06's before and not the base, however I had driven the base C5 & C6 and would much rather to own the Z06 level. It's so much more hard core than the base. I don't need to go to ZR1 level, the Z06 [for me] it's in a perfect spot. *However*, with all the new stuff in C7 base, it sounds very close to Z06 combined, and perhaps there may not be a Z06, just a bigger jump to ZR1. This is what I like to know at least, if Z06 is absolutely out.
This is some more info I didn't put in the original post I confirmed with the guy I spoke with at this event. Again, I don't think this is earth shattering as it's more common sense, but here it is:

The 7.0L engine is dead. There will be no high displacement engine on the C7. What does that mean? CAFE rules the world now and GM is going to higher efficiency DI engines, etc. No news there as the LT1 engine info is out. What it doesn't mean is that there will be no Z06 model. I think GM is going to offer a higher horsepower version of the 6.2L with better internals and a bit higher revving capacity. They could easily do a 6.2L 530-540hp LT7 as the Z06 engine.
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Old 12-11-2012, 01:18 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by QUIKAG View Post
There are absolutely some benefits to going naturally aspirated. What if they get 600hp of a high revving 5.5L engine. That's 109hp/ltr which can be achieved I'm sure. Strap that to a dual-clutch paddle shift transmission. With the lack of blower or turbos and all the associated plumbing, plus easier cooling, it's POSSIBLE they could get the weight down to 3,000lbs or so, right? C6 Z06 is roughly 3,150. So, GM cuts 150 more lbs on the C7.

So, at that point, you have a 600hp 5.5L NA engine, dual clutch, 3,000lbs C7 ZR1. At 5lbs/hp, it has a better power to weight than the current ZR1. The engine won't heat up like my C6 ZR1 at the track, lighter weight, so better chance for the brakes to work longer, etc. The Corvette racecars GM uses are naturally aspirated 5.5L engines. Hmmmm......

The more I think about it, the more innovative and exciting a nice NA engine would on the ZR1 with the associated weight reduction, better cooling, etc. As a C6 ZR1 owner, I wouldn't care at all if the engine horsepower was actually a little less than my current LS9 if I got all the other benefits mentioned above.



I would love to see a light weight, high revving, NA Z06/ZR1.
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Old 12-11-2012, 02:08 PM   #14
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Yeah, pretty much, but the guy gave some strong nonverbal cues that GM powertrain is still considering a naturally aspirated ZR1 engine, which I found surprising.

For reference, one of the best NA engines on the planet right now is the 458 Italia Ferrari. It makes 563hp and the engine is 4.5L of displacement. It also revs to NINE THOUSAND RPM.

So, that is 125hp/ltr. Let's say GM goes crazy and does a 5.5L engine that revs a little north of 8,000rpm. What sort of volumetric efficiency does the LT1 block have? So, the LT9 engine is going to have unbelieveable efficiency with crazy high flowing heads and all the other goodies to go along with that. So, to make 650hp (which is only 12hp more) NA, the LT9 engine would have to make 118hp/ltr out of 5.5L of displacement?

Is that possible? Of course it is. Is it feasible though while meeting cost/durability/reliability requirements? I don't know.

I would think a nice 5.5L turbocharged engine making 680-700hp that revs out to 7,000rpm would be a perfect C7 ZR1 engine. Huge torque, probably more durable over the long haul?!?! I don't know though.

Honestly, it would be sweet to have a crazy NA engine that revs to the moon and sounds very tight and tweaked as it revs out and makes big horsepower. Strap an engine like that to a top shelf dual clutch transmission and sell it for under $150k and you'd probably have a lot of takers, me included.


I'd rather have the torque curve of the LS9 than the curve of that mill, tho, as much I love the work coming out of Maranello. I talked to the pilot of the 458 I outran at the Texas Mile in my ZR and he really liked the car (as did I, it was drop dead gorgeous; pics don't the 458 justice). He himself, unsolicited, commented on the lack of low end grunt, and the fact that while he too loved the mill's song at full throat, he'd like it to have more twist down low.

I agree there are definite advantages (and reliability trade-offs) with making big power NA on a production vehicle. And that's why if they build it, I expect to see FI.
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Old 12-11-2012, 02:27 PM   #15
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I'd rather have the torque curve of the LS9 than the curve of that mill, tho, as much I love the work coming out of Maranello. I talked to the pilot of the 458 I outran at the Texas Mile in my ZR and he really liked the car (as did I, it was drop dead gorgeous; pics don't the 458 justice). He himself, unsolicited, commented on the lack of low end grunt, and the fact that while he too loved the mill's song at full throat, he'd like it to have more twist down low.

I agree there are definite advantages (and reliability trade-offs) with making big power NA on a production vehicle. And that's why if they build it, I expect to see FI.
I agree that FI is more likely than NA, but I do think a 5.5L NA would have enough low-end grunt and coupled with a 7-speed dual clutch could give the gearing to take it out of the hole onto a 200+mph top speed.

Torque on the 4.5L Ferrari engine is 398lb/ft at 6,000rpm. The small block 5.5L NA LT9 would have at least 450-475lb/ft at a much lower rpm.

Who knows....but I do think FI is going to win the war as it's just cheaper and easier. I won't complain as long as it's bulletproof and the cooling systems can handle a hard 15-20 minute track session.
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Old 12-11-2012, 02:30 PM   #16
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I agree.

And hopefully, given how well the ZR handles track work, they only "go forward" with their knowledge on cooling and stay as effective or improve now that they've got production experience with it.
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Old 12-11-2012, 02:31 PM   #17
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Yeah, pretty much, but the guy gave some strong nonverbal cues that GM powertrain is still considering a naturally aspirated ZR1 engine, which I found surprising.

For reference, one of the best NA engines on the planet right now is the 458 Italia Ferrari. It makes 563hp and the engine is 4.5L of displacement. It also revs to NINE THOUSAND RPM.

So, that is 125hp/ltr. Let's say GM goes crazy and does a 5.5L engine that revs a little north of 8,000rpm. What sort of volumetric efficiency does the LT1 block have? So, the LT9 engine is going to have unbelieveable efficiency with crazy high flowing heads and all the other goodies to go along with that. So, to make 650hp (which is only 12hp more) NA, the LT9 engine would have to make 118hp/ltr out of 5.5L of displacement?

Is that possible? Of course it is. Is it feasible though while meeting cost/durability/reliability requirements? I don't know.

I would think a nice 5.5L turbocharged engine making 680-700hp that revs out to 7,000rpm would be a perfect C7 ZR1 engine. Huge torque, probably more durable over the long haul?!?! I don't know though.

Honestly, it would be sweet to have a crazy NA engine that revs to the moon and sounds very tight and tweaked as it revs out and makes big horsepower. Strap an engine like that to a top shelf dual clutch transmission and sell it for under $150k and you'd probably have a lot of takers, me included.
I'm much more impressed with the DOHC engine used in the Mercedes SLS AMG over the Ferrari. How much does the Ferrari engine weigh? The LT1 weighs 465 pounds, and the 6.3L Mercedes engine only weighs 455 pounds. The Mercedes has 1.28 HP/lb. That is a much more usefull measurement then HP/L.

The Mercedes has 583 horspower at 6,800 RPM and 479 lbs-ft at 4750 RPM. Compare that to the 398 lbs-ft with the Ferrari. No need to wind the hell out of the Mercedes to get it going.

Of course, neither the Ferrari or the Mercedes is going to get by without the purchaser paying a gas guzzler tax and the manufacturer paying the EPA a fine for the crappy gas mileage they get.

Wouldn't surprize me though, if the supercharged version of the LT1 in the C7, even with the addtiional weight of the supercharger, etc, comes in with the car weight per horsepower lower then the the Ferrari or Mercedes SLS AMG , and blows the Ferrari and the Mercedes out of the water with the supercharged C7's gas mileage above 25 MPG highway. The Mercedes only gets 13 city and 19 highway. The Ferrari gets 12 city/18 highway.

I would rather have a 583+ HP, 479+ lbs-ft supercharged OHV C7 that gets over 25 MPG in a 3100 pound car then a 583 HP, 479 lbs-ft of torque NA DOHC engine in a 3250lb????? pound car(Mercedes) or a 563 HP 379 lbs-ft of torque NA DOHC in a 3274 pound car(Ferrari).

Last edited by JoesC5; 12-11-2012 at 02:59 PM.
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Old 12-11-2012, 02:35 PM   #18
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IMO, GM will keep tweaking the Base C7 for two/three years until it is capable of besting C6 Z06 numbers/handling. Probably, they will offer a beefed up suspension/mag ride version w/ the Base engine at intro, think C6 GrandSport. After three MYs the Monster will appear. I don't see three distinct models. The Base will be more than enough for any "typical" Vette buyer. The Monster will satisfy those chasing the exotics. I think one basic body style w/ extra vents, scoops, bigger tires, etc. for the Big Boy.
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Old 12-11-2012, 02:41 PM   #19
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No, the individual gets hit with guzzler but the manufacture does not pay fines unless their fleet wide fuel economy fails to hit the mark. Individual models can be below.
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Old 12-11-2012, 02:45 PM   #20
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High revving N/A is not going to happen. They get horrible mileage and it's much harder to do with OHV geometry. FI it will be.
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Old 12-11-2012, 02:45 PM
 
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