Confirmation that LT1 will be flex fuel
02-09-2013, 07:38 PM
#41
Le Mans Master
Absolutely!
Just like the 3.6 used in the CTS, ATS, and other applications. This engine has a 11.5:1 compression ratio and the recommended fuel is regular (87 octane).
The non-DI version of the 3.6L has a 10.2:1 compression ratio but 89 was recommended in it for best performance. It seems a major advantage of DI is the ability to increase the compression ratio without requiring higher octane.
It will be interesting to see the fuel recommendations for the LT1 but I wouldn't be surprised if 87 is considered acceptable.
The non-DI version of the 3.6L has a 10.2:1 compression ratio but 89 was recommended in it for best performance. It seems a major advantage of DI is the ability to increase the compression ratio without requiring higher octane.
It will be interesting to see the fuel recommendations for the LT1 but I wouldn't be surprised if 87 is considered acceptable.
Oh, and it needs only 87 octane fuel. Premium gasoline is recommended, not required.
http://gmauthority.com/blog/2012/10/...ction-and-afm/
02-09-2013, 08:24 PM
#42
Le Mans Master
Wonder why there are so few retailers selling E85? It's because in real world driving, people with FlexFuel vehicles found out that they got 27% worse gas mileage when they filled the tank with E85 instead of E10 or pure gasoline. Even in my Z06, which is not a FlexFuel vehicle, I get 1.5-2 MPG better gas mileage when I run pure gasoline then when I run E10. THAT IS real world results.
The negative is using corn that is raising the prices of all food across the board.......... something that historically has caused more than one "upper class" person to loose their head.
On the positive side there are alternative sources for E85, and algae is looking better and better since they have found ways to produce it using vertical sheets versus horizontal surfaces that take up so much space.
IMO as renewable fuels become more commonly used providing more benefits at lesser costs than fossil fuels provide, there will be more methods developed for producing it other than those that contribute to world wide food shortages
02-09-2013, 08:31 PM
#43
Team Owner
In fairness to E85, because it cost less per unit, and when tuned for E85 enhances higher compression operation that in turn increases milage, it is still a win win situation while at the same time supporting higher HP#s than fossil fuel can support at the same price
The negative is using corn that is raising the prices of all food across the board.......... something that historically has caused more than one "upper class" person to loose their head.
On the positive side there are alternative sources for E85, and algae is looking better and better since they have found ways to produce it using vertical sheets versus horizontal surfaces that take up so much space.
IMO as renewable fuels become more commonly used providing more benefits at lesser costs than fossil fuels provide, there will be more methods developed for producing it other than those that contribute to world wide food shortages
The negative is using corn that is raising the prices of all food across the board.......... something that historically has caused more than one "upper class" person to loose their head.
On the positive side there are alternative sources for E85, and algae is looking better and better since they have found ways to produce it using vertical sheets versus horizontal surfaces that take up so much space.
IMO as renewable fuels become more commonly used providing more benefits at lesser costs than fossil fuels provide, there will be more methods developed for producing it other than those that contribute to world wide food shortages
02-09-2013, 08:39 PM
#44
Le Mans Master
For some reason alot of old timers, and people lacking general knowledge about fuel consumption seem to think this. E85 is not allowed in most engines because of lack of computing compensation. Every single car has the ability to run on E85 suggesting it has been tuned properly. My LS3 has been running on it for nearly a year and a half, with zero fuel mods or issues. I have logged almost 18,000 miles! 
Quote:
E85 ethanol is used in engines modified to accept higher concentrations of ethanol. Such flexible-fuel vehicles (FFV) are designed to run on any mixture of gasoline or ethanol with up to 85% ethanol by volume. There are a few major differences between FFVs and non-FFVs. One is the elimination of bare magnesium, aluminum, and rubber parts in the fuel system. Another is that fuel pumps must be capable of operating with electrically conductive ethanol instead of non-conducting dielectric gasoline fuel. Fuel-injection control systems have a wider range of pulse widths to inject approximately 34% more fuel. Stainless steel fuel lines, sometimes lined with plastic, and stainless-steel fuel tanks in place of terne fuel tanks are used. In some cases, FFVs use acid-neutralizing motor oil. For vehicles with fuel-tank-mounted fuel pumps, additional differences to prevent arcing, as well as flame arrestors positioned in the tank's fill pipe, are also sometimes used.
02-09-2013, 08:44 PM
#45
Le Mans Master
You can't argue with facts....http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/byfuel/FFV2013.shtml
02-09-2013, 09:26 PM
#46
Team Owner
It is only a matter of time before changing dynamic compression on the fly will become SOP. At the same time there will be more FI motors that will be smaller with less cylinders to feed but just as powerful as long as they have fuels that can support 15:1 and higher compression.......... something that todays pump gas cannot do
I see where Brazil is now having to cut back their minimum ethanol requirement from 25% to 20% because they don't have enough sugar cane production and that they are now getting some of their ethanol from the US and are now producing some of their ethanol from corn.
About 6-7 years ago they were going to build an ethanol plant just to the east of us, out in the county. Everyone that lived in the area have water wells. The plant was going to dry up the wells, so a lawsuit stopped that plant right in it's tracks. It was going to take two 100 car + trains of corn per day to feed it and most of the underground water.
A couple of weeks ago they closed down a ethanol production plant located to the north of me because there was not enough corn grown locally to supply it, and it costs to much for them to ship the corn in(and we're not that far from the corn belt) vs gasoline.
If we can't supply enough ethanol for E10 for my little corner of the world, how do we supply enough ethanol for all cars to be required to run E85?
Last edited by JoesC5; 02-09-2013 at 09:29 PM.
02-09-2013, 09:41 PM
#47
Race Director
Why anyone would support burning fuel derived from food sources is beyond me. This world is suffering from lack of food and not from the lack of fuel for combustion engines. To produce the billions of gallons of ethanol to replace fossil fuel would require every square foot of agricultural land in the USA. It is a ridiculous scam foisted on the gulible american public by a socialist, out of control government. There is no way that alchohol can produce more power than fossil fuel unless the engine is made to run on alchohol alone. Ethanol has 20% less energy than gasoline and 50% less enerygy than diesel fuel. Corn should be used for food and not for fuel,
I agree. Ethanol producer in my country uses waste food and sawdust.(we only have one oil company making and selling e85)
Latest finding is flexifuel cars in winter here show that it does not suit to winter use. Even Ford representatives said that they do not recommend using it in winter in their flexifuel cars.(they do not start/run well)
Latest finding is flexifuel cars in winter here show that it does not suit to winter use. Even Ford representatives said that they do not recommend using it in winter in their flexifuel cars.(they do not start/run well)
and also with JoesC5's comments re: ethanol.
02-09-2013, 10:11 PM
#48
Drifting
My 2012 truck with VVT and higher compression while making more HP on E85 suffered a 27% loss in fuel mileage. The increased HP was proven by a higher top max speed on the same track. I had hoped that due to my daily drive being on a lot of small hills, the increased HP of the E85 would lessen the loss of economy. However my mileage dropped surprisingly the same percentage as shown on the test described by Joe (27% or 12.1 down to 8.9 mpg). Keep in mind the truck has a 6 inch lift and 35 inch tires so that is the reason for the low numbers, along with my right foot.
While the DI of the LT1 should help a little more I still expect a significant decrease in fuel economy when using E85. I hope we will see an increase in HP while using E85 although I am worried about using it in a car that I seldom drive.
02-09-2013, 10:18 PM
#50
About 6-7 years ago they were going to build an ethanol plant just to the east of us, out in the county. Everyone that lived in the area have water wells. The plant was going to dry up the wells, so a lawsuit stopped that plant right in it's tracks. It was going to take two 100 car + trains of corn per day to feed it and most of the underground water.
I believe one of the next bursting bubbles we will see is going to come out of agriculture. Corn based ethanol has directly driven up corn prices but indirectly increased other grain prices since so much ground has been dedicated to corn production. This has supported an incredible price increase in farm ground and has also fed price inflation in equipment and input feeder supplies. I hope this isn't a house of cards (all built upon federally mandated ethanol demand) but it sure looks a lot like it.
Ethanol makes an excellent race fuel but like some other "green" fuels in its current corn fed form it is anything but green for mass consumption.
Rant mode off
02-10-2013, 03:34 AM
#51
Le Mans Master
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My 2012 truck with VVT and higher compression while making more HP on E85 suffered a 27% loss in fuel mileage. The increased HP was proven by a higher top max speed on the same track. I had hoped that due to my daily drive being on a lot of small hills, the increased HP of the E85 would lessen the loss of economy. However my mileage dropped surprisingly the same percentage as shown on the test described by Joe (27% or 12.1 down to 8.9 mpg). Keep in mind the truck has a 6 inch lift and 35 inch tires so that is the reason for the low numbers, along with my right foot.
While the DI of the LT1 should help a little more I still expect a significant decrease in fuel economy when using E85. I hope we will see an increase in HP while using E85 although I am worried about using it in a car that I seldom drive.
My 2012 truck with VVT and higher compression while making more HP on E85 suffered a 27% loss in fuel mileage. The increased HP was proven by a higher top max speed on the same track. I had hoped that due to my daily drive being on a lot of small hills, the increased HP of the E85 would lessen the loss of economy. However my mileage dropped surprisingly the same percentage as shown on the test described by Joe (27% or 12.1 down to 8.9 mpg). Keep in mind the truck has a 6 inch lift and 35 inch tires so that is the reason for the low numbers, along with my right foot.
While the DI of the LT1 should help a little more I still expect a significant decrease in fuel economy when using E85. I hope we will see an increase in HP while using E85 although I am worried about using it in a car that I seldom drive.
I can only speak for myself when I say that I'm 50/50 on that.
While it's not really about how much I'm spending on fuel that matters to me, I can say that economy does matter in the sense that I don't want to leave a bigger CO2 footprint than I need to and because I generally HATE going to gas stations for any reason.
02-10-2013, 04:04 AM
#52
Racer
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I really really really want this to be real however, we need to understand that the LS3 is also Flex fuel however, it's only in the truck/SUV line, but for some reason the Camaro and Corvette don't get the feature.
As you can see from my tag, that i'm a E85 fanatic, so i need to be sceptically because if this ends up being real... I will have a heart attack! LT1 is turning out to be my dream come true!
As you can see from my tag, that i'm a E85 fanatic, so i need to be sceptically because if this ends up being real... I will have a heart attack! LT1 is turning out to be my dream come true!
02-10-2013, 05:30 AM
#53
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If I buy C7 and it can use e85, I would do it(but only in summer). This would lead to savings of 20% compared to normal 95. (e85 cost 1.0€/litre and 95 is about 1.69€/l ; 30% loss in MPG does not matter)
02-10-2013, 05:46 AM
#54
Le Mans Master
If all cars were designed to run only on E85(15:1 CR) and were required to get the same gas mileage as a conventional engine with 11.5:1 running on 87 octane pure gas using DI, where would all the ethanol come from? How much of our crop land would have to be producing corn to replace 85% of the oil we now use?
I see where Brazil is now having to cut back their minimum ethanol requirement from 25% to 20% because they don't have enough sugar cane production and that they are now getting some of their ethanol from the US and are now producing some of their ethanol from corn.
About 6-7 years ago they were going to build an ethanol plant just to the east of us, out in the county. Everyone that lived in the area have water wells. The plant was going to dry up the wells, so a lawsuit stopped that plant right in it's tracks. It was going to take two 100 car + trains of corn per day to feed it and most of the underground water.
A couple of weeks ago they closed down a ethanol production plant located to the north of me because there was not enough corn grown locally to supply it, and it costs to much for them to ship the corn in(and we're not that far from the corn belt) vs gasoline.
If we can't supply enough ethanol for E10 for my little corner of the world, how do we supply enough ethanol for all cars to be required to run E85?
I see where Brazil is now having to cut back their minimum ethanol requirement from 25% to 20% because they don't have enough sugar cane production and that they are now getting some of their ethanol from the US and are now producing some of their ethanol from corn.
About 6-7 years ago they were going to build an ethanol plant just to the east of us, out in the county. Everyone that lived in the area have water wells. The plant was going to dry up the wells, so a lawsuit stopped that plant right in it's tracks. It was going to take two 100 car + trains of corn per day to feed it and most of the underground water.
A couple of weeks ago they closed down a ethanol production plant located to the north of me because there was not enough corn grown locally to supply it, and it costs to much for them to ship the corn in(and we're not that far from the corn belt) vs gasoline.
If we can't supply enough ethanol for E10 for my little corner of the world, how do we supply enough ethanol for all cars to be required to run E85?
You will not get any argument from me over the ethics or in this case the lack of them by taking what is meant to be food for humans and feeding it to machines.
Hopefully, other areas for producing ethanol will bear fruit. The one that comes to my mind is algae that grows on water surfaces (not the kind that grows below the surface). They have found ways to duplicate the surface conditions exposed to sunlight with tall vertical sheets and vectored lighting that is certainly more expensive than harvesting algae off of a pond surface, but may work for mass production.
Last edited by Shurshot; 02-10-2013 at 07:13 AM.
02-10-2013, 07:10 AM
#55
Team Owner
I saw that test. It was anything but a scientifically accurate test.
But lets ignore that since it's completely invalidated by my second point:
While that vehicle was designed to accept E85, it was not designed to RUN E85. Meaning, it wasn't designed specifically for E85. A car designed specifically for E85 won't be able to run E10 safely unless it's both direct inject and able to change compression and spark advance dynamically.
An E85 specific engine will require a LOT more timing and compression. If you advance the timing and bring up the compression to 13:1 or higher, you begin to see the advantages of E85. Because you'd make MORE power with E85, you'd want to change the gearing for E85 vehicles too so that you're at a lower over-all RPM.
The more power you make efficiently, the better your economy will be. Meaning, even if you need X amount of fuel to reach Y RPM, you may not need to reach Y RPM to begin with if Z HP is greater than necessary for maintaining speed at lower RPM.
I hope that makes sense.
But lets ignore that since it's completely invalidated by my second point:
While that vehicle was designed to accept E85, it was not designed to RUN E85. Meaning, it wasn't designed specifically for E85. A car designed specifically for E85 won't be able to run E10 safely unless it's both direct inject and able to change compression and spark advance dynamically.
An E85 specific engine will require a LOT more timing and compression. If you advance the timing and bring up the compression to 13:1 or higher, you begin to see the advantages of E85. Because you'd make MORE power with E85, you'd want to change the gearing for E85 vehicles too so that you're at a lower over-all RPM.
The more power you make efficiently, the better your economy will be. Meaning, even if you need X amount of fuel to reach Y RPM, you may not need to reach Y RPM to begin with if Z HP is greater than necessary for maintaining speed at lower RPM.
I hope that makes sense.
02-10-2013, 12:02 PM
#56
Team Owner
What you are talking about is an engine that is purpose built for E85. What this thread is about is that the Corvette is a Flex Fuel car. There are not cars built for mass production that are built to maximize performance with E85 and soley run E85. Obviously it would not be practical for a manufacturer to do that because availability of E85 is very spotty. So the bottom line is that production FF cars are designed for both and will get worse mileage when run on E85.
Not practical though, trying to get some 200,000 gasoline retailers stocking it. The closest gas station to me that carries 98 octane pump gas(no ethanol) is in Fayetteville, Arkansas.
02-10-2013, 01:02 PM
#57
Safety Car
Thread Starter
What you are talking about is an engine that is purpose built for E85. What this thread is about is that the Corvette is a Flex Fuel car. There are not cars built for mass production that are built to maximize performance with E85 and soley run E85. Obviously it would not be practical for a manufacturer to do that because availability of E85 is very spotty. So the bottom line is that production FF cars are designed for both and will get worse mileage when run on E85.
At one point in time cars only had one cam profile, then we had two, and recently we've seen continuously variable profiles. We were used to a fixed number of active cylinders, now we've seen cars run up to three different counts of cylinders. The four stroke cycles can also "switch". We've seen Otto engines emulating the Atkinson cycle through valve timing.
The VVT, while archaic compared to some of the other engines of today, has a bit more play than the last iteration, and more importantly computer have gotten smarter. Actual compression need not be static. I'm holding my fingers crossed.
02-10-2013, 01:05 PM
#58
Correct. GM could also build a 15:1 engine that runs on 98 octane pure gasoline that would yield the same power as E85 with 15:1 CR, and get better gas mileage the e85.
Not practical though, trying to get some 200,000 gasoline retailers stocking it. The closest gas station to me that carries 98 octane pump gas(no ethanol) is in Fayetteville, Arkansas.
Not practical though, trying to get some 200,000 gasoline retailers stocking it. The closest gas station to me that carries 98 octane pump gas(no ethanol) is in Fayetteville, Arkansas.
My cars get black alge/mold growing around the Gas Door. I think it is from E10. I never got this stuff before E10? Just me or any one else?
02-10-2013, 01:16 PM
#59
Drifting
I was hoping for 500HP 500tq and 35MPG's on Regular...dangit Chevrolet, you let me down. I also expected to pull 2G's on a skidpad by now and stop from 70MPH to 0 in 50' or less, repeatedly with a 250lb passenger.
02-10-2013, 01:38 PM
#60
Drifting
Most people do not even know how much corn is utilyzed in their food. CORN SYRUP is an ingredient found in the most inauspicious food labels.(ketchup for example). I believe that if corn syrup was to be removed from the peoples diets there would be a revolution. 
I love homemade cornbread. It just doesn't taste the same when made from Mobil1 10w30 instead of corn meal. I also eat a lot of poultry. I believe corn is one of the feed stocks for them, not EXXON 91 octane gasoline made from crude oil. Some of the items I eat contain eggs. The eggs come from chickens that are not fed Phillips 66 gasoline. Sometimes I like a ham sandwich or a BTL. They taste better if the hogs are fed corn then motor oil.