New 8 speed?
04-06-2013, 07:54 PM
#21
Drifting
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Not sure if you knew this or not but the rumors of an 8 speed automatic (not a DCT/PDK/F1/SMG style though) making it's debut in the 2014 Corvette were running wild for MONTHS until the info about them actually using a 6 speed auto arrived.
I think there's still a possibility that we will see an 8 speed in future C7 models though.
I think there's still a possibility that we will see an 8 speed in future C7 models though.
04-06-2013, 10:07 PM
#22
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Has anyone here actually stated the reasons why a DCT would be beneficial to the C7 over a high performance torque converter based auto (aside from marketing reasons)?
I haven't read any real reasons, other than "to keep up with..." from anyone. They both can shift just as fast and they both can be just as efficient. They could both be just as heavy. The DCT is more expensive and requires a lot more computer control. DCTs are also physically larger.
I'm still not clear as to why we need a DCT. Someone care to elaborate?
I haven't read any real reasons, other than "to keep up with..." from anyone. They both can shift just as fast and they both can be just as efficient. They could both be just as heavy. The DCT is more expensive and requires a lot more computer control. DCTs are also physically larger.
I'm still not clear as to why we need a DCT. Someone care to elaborate?
Bill
04-07-2013, 06:30 AM
#23
Le Mans Master
It's all speculative, but it appears that 2014 is a repeat of 2005. The new 8 speed isn't ready yet, so rather than use the Aisin 8 speed going in the CTS Vsport( not to be confused with the cts-v), they are slapping in the old 6 spd from the C6. As to a dct, rumor has it that it may show up in the Z06/ZR1 cars.
04-07-2013, 07:36 AM
#24
Race Director
DCT is far superior to a torque convertor transmission on a road course. The torque convertor tranny may shift as fast on an upshift but downshifts are problematic. Haven't ridden in a C6 6 speed paddle shifter car that can run well on a road course. Some were tuned but the transmission still didn't work smoothly. Have ridden in a M3 and M5 with DCTs and it is like the difference between night and day. Instructed students with modded C6 auto and M5 on the same day riding in each car one after the other. M5 was just sweet C6 modded auto wasn't sweet although wasn't as bad as a stock C6 auto.
Bill
Bill
I don't know...and I'm really asking if its possible ...since we've heard such great things about the recent ZF 8 speed automatic..?
GM's new 8 speed torque convertor automatic might be as good or better than the highly regarded ZF8 speed...on the track? since corvette is a high performance product....
Guess we'll have to wait and see...as the pedal meets the metal....when the 8 speed automatic hits the race track......
04-07-2013, 08:19 AM
#25
I agree yet I wonder if new 8 speed torque convertor designs like the ZF or GM's upcoming 8 speed will be improved in a manner so that it performs like you are describing a DCT BMW..?
I don't know...and I'm really asking if its possible ...since we've heard such great things about the recent ZF 8 speed automatic..?
GM's new 8 speed torque convertor automatic might be as good or better than the highly regarded ZF8 speed...on the track? since corvette is a high performance product....
Guess we'll have to wait and see...as the pedal meets the metal....when the 8 speed automatic hits the race track......
I don't know...and I'm really asking if its possible ...since we've heard such great things about the recent ZF 8 speed automatic..?
GM's new 8 speed torque convertor automatic might be as good or better than the highly regarded ZF8 speed...on the track? since corvette is a high performance product....
Guess we'll have to wait and see...as the pedal meets the metal....when the 8 speed automatic hits the race track......
This doesn't mean the new autos are not great transmissions. The ZF 8 speed and the MCT 7 speed are truly great automatics but a dual clutch transmission they are not. For most folks and for daily driving, they are fantastic and, in some ways better than DCT (you don't roll back when you take your foot off the gas
) but for serious driving and track use, they are not as good. If you want the absolute best track performance, a DCT cannot be beat... period.Most comfortable and smooth and still fast: New generation auto
Most "fun" (for some) and most involving: A good old fashioned MT
Most capable pure performance and fastest performance on the track: A good DCT
Last edited by gthal; 04-07-2013 at 08:28 AM.
04-07-2013, 08:30 AM
#26
Instructor
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I was hopeful for a Mercedes style MCT for the corvette as it would have been relatively easy for GM to continue to use it's plantary gearbox production facilities offering a cool lower cost production alternative to a DCT transmission.
I'm sure the upcoming high performance 8 speed automatic will be a cool ride with interesting performance...
Till I get to test drive one though I'd be in for the rev matching M7
I'm sure the upcoming high performance 8 speed automatic will be a cool ride with interesting performance...
Till I get to test drive one though I'd be in for the rev matching M7
04-07-2013, 08:35 AM
#27
The DCT was spectacular!! Having said that, I'm looking forward to a true MT again... after 23 years of driving MTs and now only having a MT in my track car, it isn't enough MT time for me
Even my wife is complaining about not having a MT car (she doesn't drive the track car)... gotta love her.
04-07-2013, 08:37 AM
#28
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Having owned both options, I can tell you that there isn't a conventional auto (ZF, MCT, etc) that will match the performance of a DCT in my experience. They are very fast at shifting (and miles ahead of previous generation autos) but they are as not immediate and connected like a true DCT, they don't deal well with changing multiple gears quickly (say going from 5 to 3) as well as a DCT and they still mute the feel between the transmission and engine.
04-07-2013, 08:40 AM
#29
I'm very aware of the differences (I own an MCT now and my last car was a DCT M3) but it is still an auto and not an "automated manual" like a DCT. It is simply an auto with a wet startup clutch in lieu of a torque converter. It isn't a dual clutch transmission nor does it perform like one (although it's as close as any auto yet). I get your point though and don't disagree necessarily... most MB guys would still classify it as a "traditional auto" as it is closer to that than DCT. It does not, as mentioned however, perform as well or feel like a true automated manual.
Last edited by gthal; 04-07-2013 at 08:44 AM.
04-07-2013, 10:07 AM
#30
Having owned both options, I can tell you that there isn't a conventional auto (ZF, MCT, etc) that will match the performance of a DCT in my experience. They are very fast at shifting (and miles ahead of previous generation autos) but they are as not immediate and connected like a true DCT, they don't deal well with changing multiple gears quickly (say going from 5 to 3) as well as a DCT and they still mute the feel between the transmission and engine.
This doesn't mean the new autos are not great transmissions. The ZF 8 speed and the MCT 7 speed are truly great automatics but a dual clutch transmission they are not. For most folks and for daily driving, they are fantastic and, in some ways better than DCT (you don't roll back when you take your foot off the gas) but for serious driving and track use, they are not as good. If you want the absolute best track performance, a DCT cannot be beat... period.
Most comfortable and smooth and still fast: New generation auto
Most "fun" (for some) and most involving: A good old fashioned MT
Most capable pure performance and fastest performance on the track: A good DCT
This doesn't mean the new autos are not great transmissions. The ZF 8 speed and the MCT 7 speed are truly great automatics but a dual clutch transmission they are not. For most folks and for daily driving, they are fantastic and, in some ways better than DCT (you don't roll back when you take your foot off the gas
) but for serious driving and track use, they are not as good. If you want the absolute best track performance, a DCT cannot be beat... period.Most comfortable and smooth and still fast: New generation auto
Most "fun" (for some) and most involving: A good old fashioned MT
Most capable pure performance and fastest performance on the track: A good DCT
I too have owned/extensively driven the latest generation of ZF 6-speed and 8-speed automatics (as well as the Aisin 8-speed) and they are wonderful. Super smooth at cruising speeds and locks up nicely when you hammer it. Shifts are very quick and crisp, way better than the earlier automatics from 5+ years ago.
Having said all that, the DCT I currently own in my 135i absolutely destroys all the conventional automatics in every measurable performance category. It has all of the best attributes of the best automatics but with even quicker shifts, more direct feel (this is the most often overlooked/misunderstood thing about the DCT for anyone who hasn't driven one) and rev matching capability. It is just a superior transmission for outright performance.
04-07-2013, 10:30 AM
#31
Le Mans Master
It's all speculative, but it appears that 2014 is a repeat of 2005. The new 8 speed isn't ready yet, so rather than use the Aisin 8 speed going in the CTS Vsport( not to be confused with the cts-v), they are slapping in the old 6 spd from the C6. As to a dct, rumor has it that it may show up in the Z06/ZR1 cars.
04-07-2013, 10:55 AM
#33
Burning Brakes
From what I've read:
Caddys get the 8 speed. Don't know if that means they're special or the Aisin 8 speed will fit in that application or if they couldn't get it to fit in the 'Vette or it couldn't handle the torque still.
Having driven Audi's S-Tronic around a track and then an A6 and F30 335i, I absolutely agree with gthal. The ZF slushbox is really good and works just fine in a street car. But the S-Tronic (DCT) just blows it away in shift times and still feeling 'connected' to the car. Neither of them is as enjoyable or engaging to me as a stickshift. I've dealth with traffic in NYC/NJ/Philly/Baltimore & DC rowing my own. Give me the M7 please - I think my bum knees will hold out a few more years and I work from home anyway.
Caddys get the 8 speed. Don't know if that means they're special or the Aisin 8 speed will fit in that application or if they couldn't get it to fit in the 'Vette or it couldn't handle the torque still.
Having driven Audi's S-Tronic around a track and then an A6 and F30 335i, I absolutely agree with gthal. The ZF slushbox is really good and works just fine in a street car. But the S-Tronic (DCT) just blows it away in shift times and still feeling 'connected' to the car. Neither of them is as enjoyable or engaging to me as a stickshift. I've dealth with traffic in NYC/NJ/Philly/Baltimore & DC rowing my own. Give me the M7 please - I think my bum knees will hold out a few more years and I work from home anyway.
oh great - I spend 5 minutes typing out a serious answer and you beat me to it with the post above.
04-07-2013, 11:15 AM
#35
04-07-2013, 01:30 PM
#36
Le Mans Master
04-07-2013, 08:07 PM
#37
Melting Slicks
If you want the absolute best track performance, a DCT cannot be beat... period.
Most comfortable and smooth and still fast: New generation auto
Most "fun" (for some) and most involving: A good old fashioned MT
Most capable pure performance and fastest performance on the track: A good DCT
(Except to add that an excellent DCT would also jack up the price of the C7 significantly.)
04-08-2013, 09:35 AM
#38
Drifting
Looks like the third generation CTS is coming out with an Aisin 8 speed at least for the first year until the GM product is available. I have been on the fence as to what will replace my 08 CTS but the 2014 with a TT 3.6 is looking pretty appealing. The downside is owning what will probably be an "orphan" transmission within the GM supply network. Time to research Aisin reliability.
I still plan on waiting until late 2015 to place a C7 order to see what new goodies are introduced.
I still plan on waiting until late 2015 to place a C7 order to see what new goodies are introduced.
I mention the Vcoupe because of your mention of the TT Gen3 CTS. I saw it at the NYIAS and instantly fell head over heals. The car is gorgeous... and got more attention than than the Bentley display. Cadillac is on a roll between this, the ATS, and the XTS, which also is getting a 410HP version of the TTV6.. Personally I will wait until the next Vseries sedan or Coupe arrives before I trade.. but the decision will be that much harder when the time comes. I wouldn't worry about the Aisin Tranny. It is featured in the Lexus LS460 which despite the car being a car for old people.. the tranny itself is quite good, and has had little to no real issues that I'm aware of. Orphan or not.. your Powertrain warranty will back U up no matter.
04-08-2013, 02:37 PM
#39
I'm planning the same thing.. Thinking that summer of 2014 should be the time that the 2015 C7s should arrive at dealerships. Can't help but seriously consider the 7Speed Manny... The 6speed in my '08 Z51 is just too much fun to run. I realize the Autos are normally faster due to Computer being a better shifter than Human.. but Love the manual experience in a car with this much power amd lighter weght. ON THE FLIP.. I also own a '12 Cadillac CTS-V Coupe.. and it is a 6speed AUTO, which never stops eliciting cheek splitting grins when being driven either.
I mention the Vcoupe because of your mention of the TT Gen3 CTS. I saw it at the NYIAS and instantly fell head over heals. The car is gorgeous... and got more attention than than the Bentley display. Cadillac is on a roll between this, the ATS, and the XTS, which also is getting a 410HP version of the TTV6.. Personally I will wait until the next Vseries sedan or Coupe arrives before I trade.. but the decision will be that much harder when the time comes. I wouldn't worry about the Aisin Tranny. It is featured in the Lexus LS460 which despite the car being a car for old people.. the tranny itself is quite good, and has had little to no real issues that I'm aware of. Orphan or not.. your Powertrain warranty will back U up no matter.
I mention the Vcoupe because of your mention of the TT Gen3 CTS. I saw it at the NYIAS and instantly fell head over heals. The car is gorgeous... and got more attention than than the Bentley display. Cadillac is on a roll between this, the ATS, and the XTS, which also is getting a 410HP version of the TTV6.. Personally I will wait until the next Vseries sedan or Coupe arrives before I trade.. but the decision will be that much harder when the time comes. I wouldn't worry about the Aisin Tranny. It is featured in the Lexus LS460 which despite the car being a car for old people.. the tranny itself is quite good, and has had little to no real issues that I'm aware of. Orphan or not.. your Powertrain warranty will back U up no matter.
I am still unsure whether to go auto or standard on the C7 which is part of the reason I am waiting until 2015 to see what transpires on the transmission front. I haven't owned a manual in 15 years so although it isn't a forgotten skill it is definitely rusty
The 6 speed auto in my current CTS is fine although I prefer the more manual like feel of the heavy duty 6 speed Allison in my pickup. The Allison shifts are very firm and the torque converter clutch locks when it shifts to second and doesn't unlock again until the shift back into first. By comparison the CTS 6 speed does have a somewhat "slushy feel" at times.I know that whichever C7 transmission I order at times I will wish I had the other so now I just have to figure out which choice those percentages favor.
04-08-2013, 04:44 PM
#40
Drifting
Thanks for the additional information. I was just about sold on replacing my CTS with the lighter ATS when information about the new model was released. It took 4 months and intervention by a friend at GM to get my 2008 CTS built so hopefully the order process will be smoother for the next one.
I am still unsure whether to go auto or standard on the C7 which is part of the reason I am waiting until 2015 to see what transpires on the transmission front. I haven't owned a manual in 15 years so although it isn't a forgotten skill it is definitely rusty The 6 speed auto in my current CTS is fine although I prefer the more manual like feel of the heavy duty 6 speed Allison in my pickup. The Allison shifts are very firm and the torque converter clutch locks when it shifts to second and doesn't unlock again until the shift back into first. By comparison the CTS 6 speed does have a somewhat "slushy feel" at times.
I know that whichever C7 transmission I order at times I will wish I had the other so now I just have to figure out which choice those percentages favor.
I am still unsure whether to go auto or standard on the C7 which is part of the reason I am waiting until 2015 to see what transpires on the transmission front. I haven't owned a manual in 15 years so although it isn't a forgotten skill it is definitely rusty
The 6 speed auto in my current CTS is fine although I prefer the more manual like feel of the heavy duty 6 speed Allison in my pickup. The Allison shifts are very firm and the torque converter clutch locks when it shifts to second and doesn't unlock again until the shift back into first. By comparison the CTS 6 speed does have a somewhat "slushy feel" at times.I know that whichever C7 transmission I order at times I will wish I had the other so now I just have to figure out which choice those percentages favor.