Tadge specifically addresses DCT in the C7
05-02-2013, 09:00 AM
#21
Tech Contributor
Member Since: Mar 1999
Location: Northern VA
Posts: 10,057
Received 3,787 Likes
on
1,139 Posts
"Ask Tadge" Producer
That and it costs at least half of what a new C7 would.
As for the third item, that is BS too. A DCT is not any different than a regular manual tranny other than the clutches and pushbutton shifting. So I can't think of any reason why AFM would be a problem other than vibration and feeling the engagement/disengagement,
jas
05-02-2013, 09:12 AM
#22
05-02-2013, 09:14 AM
#23
Tech Contributor
Member Since: Mar 1999
Location: Northern VA
Posts: 10,057
Received 3,787 Likes
on
1,139 Posts
"Ask Tadge" Producer
05-02-2013, 09:15 AM
#24
The one thing I would point out is that the SMG in the C6R is a purpose built race unit. I looked at one in Carlisle a few years back (I think Katech was offering one for the C5/6 if I remember correctly) and it retailed for around $27,000. Perhaps it was just a bean counter decision. I doubt we would have a base model that costs under $52k if they had gone that route. The cost would obviously be distributed over more units, but it would still be an increase.
Besides, just like with any model, you can't show all your cards the first year...
I wish people would do more research before spouting off wrong information.
05-02-2013, 09:38 AM
#25
Team Owner
Member Since: Jun 2005
Location: Northern, VA
Posts: 46,100
Received 2,477 Likes
on
1,940 Posts
St. Jude Donor '15
"In honor of jpee"
For purposes of this discussion, the Veyron has a DCT and makes 1000 lb-ft. It is obviously modified to handle that much torque and I am not suggesting that the development cost associated with the Veyron apply to the Corvette, but the point is that DCTs can be made to handle more torque than the Corvette will ever need.
The issue is not the torque. Saying it won't fit is a better reason. If they did not develop the C7 with the intention of using a DCT, they can't just drop one in after the fact because they are bigger and heavier so the current packaging may not allow for it.
No DCT is fine as long as the Corvette has a comparable offering. GM really has no choice but to put their new 8 speed in the Vette when it's ready but it will never shift as fast as a DCT. We can only hope it's close.
The issue is not the torque. Saying it won't fit is a better reason. If they did not develop the C7 with the intention of using a DCT, they can't just drop one in after the fact because they are bigger and heavier so the current packaging may not allow for it.
No DCT is fine as long as the Corvette has a comparable offering. GM really has no choice but to put their new 8 speed in the Vette when it's ready but it will never shift as fast as a DCT. We can only hope it's close.
05-02-2013, 10:12 AM
#26
Tech Contributor
Member Since: Mar 1999
Location: Northern VA
Posts: 10,057
Received 3,787 Likes
on
1,139 Posts
"Ask Tadge" Producer
05-02-2013, 11:09 AM
#28
Safety Car
05-02-2013, 11:24 AM
#29
Team Owner
Member Since: Sep 2000
Location: Far NW 'burbs of Chicago
Posts: 23,926
Received 2,043 Likes
on
1,357 Posts
St. Jude Donor '13
This hits the proverbial nail on the head. All manufacturers made similar claims as GM when they didn't have DCT. When GM will be done building, and I guarantee they are working on one, then it will be the new fantastic DCT. Until then it will be it can't be done, or it's too heavy, or it doesn't fit.
GM will finish theirs after everyone develops one. That's just the truth, it's cheaper to walk on a beaten path and GM wants the bargain vehicle. The GM costumer wants the bargain vehicle, so he/she will have to wait.
GM will finish theirs after everyone develops one. That's just the truth, it's cheaper to walk on a beaten path and GM wants the bargain vehicle. The GM costumer wants the bargain vehicle, so he/she will have to wait.
If the C7 had a DCT but cost $5,000 more, people would be howling.
A few years from now when GM gets one that can be used or adapted for most of their cars, then it will appear.
Remember, this is a company that was in bankruptcy a few years ago.
05-02-2013, 11:29 AM
#30
Le Mans Master
Member Since: Jul 2000
Location: North Dallas 40 TX
Posts: 6,448
Received 4,372 Likes
on
2,065 Posts
So you DCT guys would be OK if GM put a DCT in the Stingray with the LT1, but when they come out with the LT5 and/or the L88 it did not have one because it would not fit and handle the torque?
I would guess that they are trying to get a DCT transmission that will work for all levels of the Corvette, and potentially the trucks, including the diesel. It would be nice if they had a transmission lighter than the Allison for that.
Which of the Corvette transmissions didn't shortly go into a truck or other higher volume car in the GM line?
I would guess that they are trying to get a DCT transmission that will work for all levels of the Corvette, and potentially the trucks, including the diesel. It would be nice if they had a transmission lighter than the Allison for that.
Which of the Corvette transmissions didn't shortly go into a truck or other higher volume car in the GM line?
05-02-2013, 11:39 AM
#31
He has owned several Audis, his disappointment was visible, traded his S5 for a M5. I didn't say he was self proclaimed, that was my view of him, no need to make things up. Those magazines never mentioned the many catastrophic Porsche M96 engine failures either, or weren't they real?
I could claim "a friend" said this or that all day long. Individual anectodal evidence doesn't amount for much in the face of a wealth of independent 3rd-party evaluations that have no interest in settling online debates.
Did Tadge mention price? Some of those cars are only 1/10-1/400th the volume. Their prices have more to do with their market positioning, rather than any real cost in developing a DCT.
Last edited by Guibo; 05-02-2013 at 11:48 AM.
05-02-2013, 11:53 AM
#32
Race Director
I TRULY don't know what you people want....
Tadge was asked about DCT and he ANSWERED the question. Since none of you internet engineers are ACTUAL engineers, can you just LET IT GO! ALL of you who keep spouting off about this have ZERO idea what is involved in engineering a transmission...ZERO. Reading a tech article doesn't make you an ENGINEER. Calling the man a liar, pointing to what other makers do, etc, doesn't change anything. THERE'S NO DCT IN THE C7. Either buy a PROPER manual or the 6 speed automatic. Those are your choices. If you don't like them, go buy something else. And please let us know how you found the car that satisfied EVERY one of your wants and desires.
Jimmy
PS. I want FE4 available on the base car, they don't offer it. Maybe I should start hundreds of threads about what a jerk Tadge is for MAKING me buy a Z51 equipped car to get what I want.
I could call it: "No FE4 in base car...EPIC FAIL"
Tadge was asked about DCT and he ANSWERED the question. Since none of you internet engineers are ACTUAL engineers, can you just LET IT GO! ALL of you who keep spouting off about this have ZERO idea what is involved in engineering a transmission...ZERO. Reading a tech article doesn't make you an ENGINEER. Calling the man a liar, pointing to what other makers do, etc, doesn't change anything. THERE'S NO DCT IN THE C7. Either buy a PROPER manual or the 6 speed automatic. Those are your choices. If you don't like them, go buy something else. And please let us know how you found the car that satisfied EVERY one of your wants and desires.
Jimmy
PS. I want FE4 available on the base car, they don't offer it. Maybe I should start hundreds of threads about what a jerk Tadge is for MAKING me buy a Z51 equipped car to get what I want.
I could call it: "No FE4 in base car...EPIC FAIL"
Last edited by jimmyb; 05-02-2013 at 12:05 PM.
05-02-2013, 12:18 PM
#33
Banned Scam/Spammer
2014 GT-R - 463 lb-ft
SLS AMG - 479 lb-ft
BMW M5 - 500 lb-ft (from 1500 rpm)
Ferrari F12 - 509 lb-ft
Porsche 997 Turbo S - 516 lb-ft (from 2100 rpm)
Panamera Turbo S - 553 lb-ft (590 with overboost)
LaFerrari - 663 lb-ft
McLaren P1 - 664 lb-ft
Various Audis have both dual clutch and cylinder deactivation.
Of course it's not going to fit if you don't design it to fit from the start. And of course it's not going to fit from the start if you have no viable DCT plan to begin with.
SLS AMG - 479 lb-ft
BMW M5 - 500 lb-ft (from 1500 rpm)
Ferrari F12 - 509 lb-ft
Porsche 997 Turbo S - 516 lb-ft (from 2100 rpm)
Panamera Turbo S - 553 lb-ft (590 with overboost)
LaFerrari - 663 lb-ft
McLaren P1 - 664 lb-ft
Various Audis have both dual clutch and cylinder deactivation.
Of course it's not going to fit if you don't design it to fit from the start. And of course it's not going to fit from the start if you have no viable DCT plan to begin with.
05-02-2013, 12:22 PM
#34
2nd Gear
Member Since: Oct 2008
Location: Askim
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Noticed that the Bugatti Veyron DCT was mentioned as an example for a box for a road car that can handle a lot of torque.
That is correct, but that box was designed from ground up for the Veyron, and has a cost of $172,000.- ( not a "modified" standard box)
So might be a bit hard to fit something like that into the C7 design budget and keep it in a realistic price range
That is correct, but that box was designed from ground up for the Veyron, and has a cost of $172,000.- ( not a "modified" standard box)
So might be a bit hard to fit something like that into the C7 design budget and keep it in a realistic price range
05-02-2013, 12:34 PM
#36
"Go buy a [insert foreign manufacturer car]!"
This is roughly equivalent to the schoolyard retort "If you love it so much, marry it!" Not very mature, nor even relevant to the discussion, which is looking only at the technical merits of what was said.
The sad part is, too often too many people do take them up on that offer.
BigThreeDecliningMarketshare.jpg
05-02-2013, 12:40 PM
#37
Race Director
That very scenario (buy something else) has been suggested about a million times, but these boys just like to read themselves bitching, while impressing all the rest of us with their engineering acumen and ability to use Google.
Jimmy
05-02-2013, 12:42 PM
#38
Le Mans Master
Member Since: Apr 2013
Posts: 6,657
Received 4,116 Likes
on
1,470 Posts
2020 C8 of the Year Finalist - Unmodified
There's two reasons why the C7 has the old automatic and not a new DCT
1) Cost
2) Cost
The rest is BS.
1) Cost
2) Cost
The rest is BS.
05-02-2013, 12:50 PM
#40
Race Director
Yes, that's always the answer when people try to justify why the Corvette shouldn't have features found on other cars:
"Go buy a [insert foreign manufacturer car]!"
This is roughly equivalent to the schoolyard retort "If you love it so much, marry it!" Not very mature, nor even relevant to the discussion, which is looking only at the technical merits of what was said.
The sad part is, too often too many people do take them up on that offer.
BigThreeDecliningMarketshare.jpg
"Go buy a [insert foreign manufacturer car]!"
This is roughly equivalent to the schoolyard retort "If you love it so much, marry it!" Not very mature, nor even relevant to the discussion, which is looking only at the technical merits of what was said.
The sad part is, too often too many people do take them up on that offer.
BigThreeDecliningMarketshare.jpg
DCT is a sticking point to you, so buy a car with DCT. Maybe to someone else, maintenence costs are a big deal and because of that, they won't buy a GT-R. There's no right or wrong here, it's your money, buy what best meets your needs/wants. This never ending discussion is like saying "If a Corvette had back seats, I'd buy one". It doesn't, so rather than bitching about Chevrolet not meeting YOUR set of needs, look elsewhere.
Jimmy
