Tadge specifically addresses DCT in the C7
05-02-2013, 12:52 PM
#41
Noticed that the Bugatti Veyron DCT was mentioned as an example for a box for a road car that can handle a lot of torque.
That is correct, but that box was designed from ground up for the Veyron, and has a cost of $172,000.- ( not a "modified" standard box)
So might be a bit hard to fit something like that into the C7 design budget and keep it in a realistic price range
That is correct, but that box was designed from ground up for the Veyron, and has a cost of $172,000.- ( not a "modified" standard box)
So might be a bit hard to fit something like that into the C7 design budget and keep it in a realistic price range
05-02-2013, 12:55 PM
#42
The retort to "buy something else" is entirely relevant. NO car is perfect, every car is compromised in some way. As a consumer (and a realist), you make your choice on which car meets your wants/needs while having the compromises that aren't an issue to YOU.
DCT is a sticking point to you, so buy a car with DCT. Maybe to someone else, maintenence costs are a big deal and because of that, they won't buy a GT-R. There's no right or wrong here, it's your money, buy what best meets your needs/wants. This never ending discussion is like saying "If a Corvette had back seats, I'd buy one". It doesn't, so rather than bitching about Chevrolet not meeting YOUR set of needs, look elsewhere.
Jimmy
DCT is a sticking point to you, so buy a car with DCT. Maybe to someone else, maintenence costs are a big deal and because of that, they won't buy a GT-R. There's no right or wrong here, it's your money, buy what best meets your needs/wants. This never ending discussion is like saying "If a Corvette had back seats, I'd buy one". It doesn't, so rather than bitching about Chevrolet not meeting YOUR set of needs, look elsewhere.
Jimmy
No, that retort is not relevant. When Ralph makes dubious claims about GM's tire contract with Michelin, I can poke all kinds of holes into his claims regardless of whether I'm "going to buy" an SRT or ZR1, which I'm not. It's an open forum. If you don't like to hear discussions about DCT, then just quit reading them.
05-02-2013, 01:07 PM
#45
05-02-2013, 01:07 PM
#46
Safety Car
I call BS on all three items above. The first two are backed up by a post I made about the Corvette being raced at the 12 hours of Sebring. Speed did a spot on the DCT transmission that the GM Corvette team was running. Had 14ms shift times. It also handled all the torque of the racing motor. And it obviously fit in the C6R, which is based on the C6 and the C7 is not any different architecturally. As for the third item, that is BS too. A DCT is not any different than a regular manual tranny other than the clutches and pushbutton shifting. So I can't think of any reason why AFM would be a problem other than vibration and feeling the engagement/disengagement, which would also be a problem with a regular manual transmission and that is obviously not the case. They are just deflecting and making excuses until the DCT that they are developing is ready. Probably for the ZO6/ZR1 models that will come for 2015.
The one thing I would point out is that the SMG in the C6R is a purpose built race unit. I looked at one in Carlisle a few years back (I think Katech was offering one for the C5/6 if I remember correctly) and it retailed for around $27,000. Perhaps it was just a bean counter decision. I doubt we would have a base model that costs under $52k if they had gone that route. The cost would obviously be distributed over more units, but it would still be an increase.
Besides, just like with any model, you can't show all your cards the first year...
They don't offer any type of automatic driving mode and are purely racecar stuff. The NVH is crazy... non-issue for racecar, but wouldn't work in a streetable application.
~The more you know
05-02-2013, 01:18 PM
#47
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ANY retort, opinion, position is relevant and valid, at least to the author on THIS public forum. There is no reason to invalidate anyone's opinion, even one who compares a Veyron to what a Corvette at $51K should have in it. Or, a $20K+ racing sequential transmission that no one would really like as a DD, or even weekend tourer to a "regular" automatic trans.
I do recall LGM offering one for the C6 about 4 years ago for about $25K, and then the price reduced "all the way" to about $23K several years later. Have you ever been in a car w. a sequential racing trans?
Oh that's right; a sequential trans does not compare to a DCT. Right...So, Chev. and GM are just holding out until they design a car around the trans that will fit, or more reasonably, someone designs one that will fit in 4 or more different models across the lineup. As kids will say, whatever....
IMO, Lee Iacocca said it best a very long time ago, "If you can find a better car, buy it." It may have been funny in retrospect considering what he was "selling" but it also surely does apply here.
I do recall LGM offering one for the C6 about 4 years ago for about $25K, and then the price reduced "all the way" to about $23K several years later.
Have you ever been in a car w. a sequential racing trans?Oh that's right; a sequential trans does not compare to a DCT. Right...So, Chev. and GM are just holding out until they design a car around the trans that will fit, or more reasonably, someone designs one that will fit in 4 or more different models across the lineup. As kids will say, whatever....
IMO, Lee Iacocca said it best a very long time ago, "If you can find a better car, buy it." It may have been funny in retrospect considering what he was "selling" but it also surely does apply here.
05-02-2013, 01:24 PM
#48
Race Director
And if people don't bitch enough, do you think Chevrolet would improve the Corvette? Think about the direction they're headed in, with the improved interior and the renewed focus on driver interaction.
No, that retort is not relevant. When Ralph makes dubious claims about GM's tire contract with Michelin, I can poke all kinds of holes into his claims regardless of whether I'm "going to buy" an SRT or ZR1, which I'm not. It's an open forum. If you don't like to hear discussions about DCT, then just quit reading them.
No, that retort is not relevant. When Ralph makes dubious claims about GM's tire contract with Michelin, I can poke all kinds of holes into his claims regardless of whether I'm "going to buy" an SRT or ZR1, which I'm not. It's an open forum. If you don't like to hear discussions about DCT, then just quit reading them.
GM, like MOST other corporations, makes it's decisions based on sales/profitability, not people bitching. If the C6 was still selling 35,000 units a year, do you think we would have the C7 right now?
It is an open forum, and while you may think you are "discussing" DCT's, your posts come across as "lecturing". The fact that SO many respond negatively to your posts should tell you something. Make of it what you will.
Jimmy
05-02-2013, 01:24 PM
#49
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It's a cost thing. GM transmission guys are some of the best in the auto business. If they are givin the task of designing a DCT for the vette. I believe they could handle it.
Getting the money to do it, is the problem. Easier to just keep the cheap old tranny. Than spend money for something new and high tech.
Getting the money to do it, is the problem. Easier to just keep the cheap old tranny. Than spend money for something new and high tech.
05-02-2013, 01:34 PM
#51
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05-02-2013, 01:35 PM
#52
You really think that people bitching makes GM change the Corvette?
GM, like MOST other corporations, makes it's decisions based on sales/profitability, not people bitching. If the C6 was still selling 35,000 units a year, do you think we would have the C7 right now?
It is an open forum, and while you may think you are "discussing" DCT's, your posts come across as "lecturing". The fact that SO many respond negatively to your posts should tell you something. Make of it what you will.
Jimmy
GM, like MOST other corporations, makes it's decisions based on sales/profitability, not people bitching. If the C6 was still selling 35,000 units a year, do you think we would have the C7 right now?
It is an open forum, and while you may think you are "discussing" DCT's, your posts come across as "lecturing". The fact that SO many respond negatively to your posts should tell you something. Make of it what you will.
Jimmy
You can artificially inflate the market with massive rebates for only so long.If my posts come across as "lecturing," then that's your problem. It is not meant to lecture. It is meant to raise questions about claims. Read more into it at your own peril. Yeah, these "SO many" include people who think the GT-R drives itself, or that the Solstice failed because GM artificially capped production.
I'm not worried.
05-02-2013, 01:55 PM
#53
Race Director
On the matter of seats, yes, they changed them because enough people bitched. Sales/profitability is often a function of what the competition offers. No, we would not have a C7, but ask yourself why they can no longer sell 35k/yr. You can artificially inflate the market with massive rebates for only so long.
If my posts come across as "lecturing," then that's your problem. It is not meant to lecture. It is meant to raise questions about claims. Read more into it at your own peril. Yeah, these "SO many" include people who think the GT-R drives itself, or that the Solstice failed because GM artificially capped production. I'm not worried.
You can artificially inflate the market with massive rebates for only so long.If my posts come across as "lecturing," then that's your problem. It is not meant to lecture. It is meant to raise questions about claims. Read more into it at your own peril. Yeah, these "SO many" include people who think the GT-R drives itself, or that the Solstice failed because GM artificially capped production.
I'm not worried.Jimmy
05-02-2013, 02:00 PM
#54
Race Director
Yes, we will scream (if it's the only transmission offered). Reality is that most people want an automatic, even in their sports cars (I am not one of them!). There's a reason that Ferrari doesn't offer a 3 pedal car anymore, for all the 3 pedal bluster on Ferrarichat, when Ferrari customers had a choice, 90% chose automatics. How many more ZR1/ZO6's would have been sold with an automatic transmission choice?????
Jimmy
Jimmy
05-02-2013, 02:02 PM
#55
Clearly, your "tone" is not just my problem, but, if you think everyone that disagrees with you is less knowledgable, well, that's a different issue. FYI, the C6 didn't sell 35,000 units a year because of "massive rebates". Rebates apppeared after the sales had dipped to the current level.
Jimmy
Jimmy
There were already rebates well before the current level.
05-02-2013, 02:18 PM
#56
Safety Car
The retort to "buy something else" is entirely relevant. NO car is perfect, every car is compromised in some way. As a consumer (and a realist), you make your choice on which car meets your wants/needs while having the compromises that aren't an issue to YOU.
DCT is a sticking point to you, so buy a car with DCT. Maybe to someone else, maintenence costs are a big deal and because of that, they won't buy a GT-R. There's no right or wrong here, it's your money, buy what best meets your needs/wants. This never ending discussion is like saying "If a Corvette had back seats, I'd buy one". It doesn't, so rather than bitching about Chevrolet not meeting YOUR set of needs, look elsewhere.
Jimmy
DCT is a sticking point to you, so buy a car with DCT. Maybe to someone else, maintenence costs are a big deal and because of that, they won't buy a GT-R. There's no right or wrong here, it's your money, buy what best meets your needs/wants. This never ending discussion is like saying "If a Corvette had back seats, I'd buy one". It doesn't, so rather than bitching about Chevrolet not meeting YOUR set of needs, look elsewhere.
Jimmy
This thread is about disproving some of GMs claims with a counterfactual. If Hyundai came out in their first year and said electric windows can't be done then we could disprove them with a counterfactual without being engineers. It doesn't mean that a Mercedes equipped with electric windows is comparable to a Hyundai, it just shows that it can be done.
05-02-2013, 02:36 PM
#57
Race Director
"Yes, we will scream (if it's the only transmission offered). Reality is that most people want an automatic, even in their sports cars (I am not one of them!). There's a reason that Ferrari doesn't offer a 3 pedal car anymore, for all the 3 pedal bluster on Ferrarichat, when Ferrari customers had a choice, 90% chose automatics. How many more ZR1/ZO6's would have been sold with an automatic transmission choice?????
Jimmy "
Just read an article on the 2014 Porsche 911 Turbo yesterday. PDK is the ONLY transmission now. No more manuals. Don't know if that will be across the board for all 911s, but, it is a sign that manuals are becoming less and less desirable.
-Alex
Jimmy "
Just read an article on the 2014 Porsche 911 Turbo yesterday. PDK is the ONLY transmission now. No more manuals. Don't know if that will be across the board for all 911s, but, it is a sign that manuals are becoming less and less desirable.
-Alex
05-02-2013, 03:13 PM
#58
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It does apply here, If you find a car that better fits what your desire, and your wallet than a Corvette you should buy it.
My experience in trying to persuade people (like Corvette designers, engineers, and marketers) to see things my way, has shown it has not been fruitful to call them LIARS. Or to be rude to everyone in the discussion that does not at first agree with me. A lot of the buyers of new Corvettes are successful people (hence the ability to afford one), I find it hard to imagine they got successful using those tactics. I wonder why they do it in this circumstance?
They have explained why the C7 does not yet have a DCT automatic. I think they may have omitted part of the reason. I think they were silent that an additional requirement was that it needed to have or easily have the torque capacity of the LT1 but all of its more powerful siblings over the next few years. As bad as the complaints are now about not having a DCT; Imagine how bad it would be if they had one for the LT1, but not its 575, and 725 HP siblings. You know the ones that it would REALLY matter for, as a pretty fair proportion of those cars get tracked. You know the "track" versions of the Corvette.
05-02-2013, 03:31 PM
#60
I don't see where Guibo even expressed his love for a DCT. I agree with all his points yet I prefer manual to DCT. It seems like you are engaging in car comparisons when this thread is not even about that. It's not even about your needs or his needs.
This thread is about disproving some of GMs claims with a counterfactual. If Hyundai came out in their first year and said electric windows can't be done then we could disprove them with a counterfactual without being engineers. It doesn't mean that a Mercedes equipped with electric windows is comparable to a Hyundai, it just shows that it can be done.
This thread is about disproving some of GMs claims with a counterfactual. If Hyundai came out in their first year and said electric windows can't be done then we could disprove them with a counterfactual without being engineers. It doesn't mean that a Mercedes equipped with electric windows is comparable to a Hyundai, it just shows that it can be done.
We can have a technical discussion about Hyundai's electric window development without resorting to telling people to go off and buy a Mercedes. If discussion were limited to only what the Corvette currently has, then this forum would be a lot less interesting.Yeah, let's forget the first bailout, then subsequent "merger of equals" with Diamler, then selling to Cerberus, and now onto Fiat.
As for the LT5, it would have been just as easy for Tadge to mention that as the LT1.