New Magazine test of C7 vs 911
08-26-2013, 03:16 AM
#281
If the product was so inferior, people would not come back. I bought a new Vette and have yet to buy another. I have had 5 Porsches.
08-26-2013, 04:12 AM
#282
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How do you know the build quality is certainly a match?
Looks are subjective. For every one person here who says the 911 is the ugliest car ever, I'm sure you can find an equal amount (if not more) who have said the C7's rear end is a deal breaker.
I didn't say the used Porsche was $80k; you can get a 5-year old used Porsche for much less than that and still have way more than enough left over for anything that might go wrong. So, no. That does not knock off a).
For b), you've just admitted something that is more important to Porsche buyers than the prestige of a Ferrari badge: Maintenance and warranty. Thanks for playing!
So you're saying that people who buy a Boxster do so to try to fool "the majority of the population" that they're actually driving a 911? What do you base this on?
So you switch out McDonald's only for other budget fast-food joints (BK, Taco Bell, DQ, etc). Am I hearing that right?
How do you know those few people actually don't have the luxury of being able to afford a large # of cars to switch up from time to time? Look at it from this perspective: According to this report, the average income of Corvette buyers is $87k:
http://hedgescompany.com/blog/2012/0...rvette-owners/
What is the median transaction price of all Corvettes? Maybe $60k, accounting for rebates, incentives countered by options and higher-end Corvettes? That's 68% of the median Corvette owner's income.
Meanwhile, this report shows the median income of a 911 owner is $390k:
http://www.forbes.com/2008/11/21/car..._1120cars.html
If you consider that the average transaction price of a 911 might be $130k (991 S with many of the most popular options), that comes out to only 33% of the median income of a 911 owner. Who do you think is making the greater sacrifice, as a percentage of his income, when buying the car: The Corvette buyer or the 911 buyer? Who do you think has more disposable income to throw around on multiple vehicles? You could take the most expensive 911 in recent times, the GT2 RS at $245k, and it would still only be 62% of what the median 911 buyer makes in a year.
The point here is that value is relative. A kid making $5 week on an allowance has a very different perception of the value of a McDonald's Value Meal, compared to a guy making $7.5k in the same week.
Also note what that article says is a major motivating factor for 911 buyers:
"Much as an RX400 owner might also feel the purchase of the car is a reward for his or her own success, that’s more or less the sole motivation among those who buy a Porsche 911. The most decidedly male (87%) buyers are successful (median income $390,000), know what they want, work hard to get it and enjoy rewarding themselves when they reach a milestone."
Looks are subjective. For every one person here who says the 911 is the ugliest car ever, I'm sure you can find an equal amount (if not more) who have said the C7's rear end is a deal breaker.
I didn't say the used Porsche was $80k; you can get a 5-year old used Porsche for much less than that and still have way more than enough left over for anything that might go wrong. So, no. That does not knock off a).
For b), you've just admitted something that is more important to Porsche buyers than the prestige of a Ferrari badge: Maintenance and warranty. Thanks for playing!
So you're saying that people who buy a Boxster do so to try to fool "the majority of the population" that they're actually driving a 911? What do you base this on?
So you switch out McDonald's only for other budget fast-food joints (BK, Taco Bell, DQ, etc). Am I hearing that right?
How do you know those few people actually don't have the luxury of being able to afford a large # of cars to switch up from time to time? Look at it from this perspective: According to this report, the average income of Corvette buyers is $87k:
http://hedgescompany.com/blog/2012/0...rvette-owners/
What is the median transaction price of all Corvettes? Maybe $60k, accounting for rebates, incentives countered by options and higher-end Corvettes? That's 68% of the median Corvette owner's income.
Meanwhile, this report shows the median income of a 911 owner is $390k:
http://www.forbes.com/2008/11/21/car..._1120cars.html
If you consider that the average transaction price of a 911 might be $130k (991 S with many of the most popular options), that comes out to only 33% of the median income of a 911 owner. Who do you think is making the greater sacrifice, as a percentage of his income, when buying the car: The Corvette buyer or the 911 buyer? Who do you think has more disposable income to throw around on multiple vehicles? You could take the most expensive 911 in recent times, the GT2 RS at $245k, and it would still only be 62% of what the median 911 buyer makes in a year.
The point here is that value is relative. A kid making $5 week on an allowance has a very different perception of the value of a McDonald's Value Meal, compared to a guy making $7.5k in the same week.
Also note what that article says is a major motivating factor for 911 buyers:
"Much as an RX400 owner might also feel the purchase of the car is a reward for his or her own success, that’s more or less the sole motivation among those who buy a Porsche 911. The most decidedly male (87%) buyers are successful (median income $390,000), know what they want, work hard to get it and enjoy rewarding themselves when they reach a milestone."
08-26-2013, 08:15 AM
#283
Banned Scam/Spammer
I wonder if these tools realize that they are a huge source of cheap entertainment and are certainly not taken seriously.
08-26-2013, 08:38 AM
#284
Le Mans Master
Good for you. These guys are amazing aren't they. Trolls who memorize car magazines, slobber over Porsches and degrade Corvette enthusiasts. You and everyone else is smart not to respond to their idiotic questions asked for no other reason to aggravate.
I wonder if these tools realize that they are a huge source of cheap entertainment and are certainly not taken seriously.
I wonder if these tools realize that they are a huge source of cheap entertainment and are certainly not taken seriously.
08-26-2013, 09:12 AM
#285
I'm wondering where the "911 guys all make 200k a year" nonsense came from! People like what they like & smart people buy what they want. My next car might be a 911 turbo & I don't make 200k a year. Just ended that theory! It isn't for status, it's because the C7 has to show me something. I really wish the fake car guys would just leave
08-26-2013, 09:41 AM
#286
Le Mans Master
I'm wondering where the "911 guys all make 200k a year" nonsense came from! People like what they like & smart people buy what they want. My next car might be a 911 turbo & I don't make 200k a year. Just ended that theory! It isn't for status, it's because the C7 has to show me something. I really wish the fake car guys would just leave
08-26-2013, 09:54 AM
#287
Burning Brakes
Long drawn out copy and past arguments that have little to do with the new c7 corvette and more to do about pontification?
I don't even read the posts as I see the their names any more...
They do keep the board moving but there's no substance worth reading..
No offense intended to those who like to bore us sports car enthusiasts to death with how great every other sports car is compared to corvette..
When they haven't even driven the new c7 yet....
While the press that has driven the c7 are RAVING ABOUT IT...
08-26-2013, 10:20 AM
#288
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If you think that a video establishes complete credibility you are foolish.
Porsche doesn't normally video for public dissemination any of their laps on the Ring. There is no "Official" manufacturer's "Ring Record Lap" protocol, and there is no independent verification system in place to verify any manufacturer's Ring time, and that includes GM.
SportAuto recorded a Ring time of 7:24 for the GT2 RS, so even if you take that number it still establishes that the 911 is not an "antiquated" platform/design.
08-26-2013, 10:27 AM
#289
Race Director
Now we are being asked on the corvette forum to prove Porsche GT2 s didn't post certain times?
Go to renntech forum for that information if you care so much.
You Porsche fanatics are on the wrong forum for information like that.
Notches request of Proving things don't exist for Porsche gt2 RS s is insane already.
Go to renntech forum for that information if you care so much.
You Porsche fanatics are on the wrong forum for information like that.
Notches request of Proving things don't exist for Porsche gt2 RS s is insane already.
08-26-2013, 10:27 AM
#290
Melting Slicks
Thread Starter
Prove that it is BS. Prove that Porsche never recorded a 7:18 lap time.
If you think that a video establishes complete credibility you are foolish.
Porsche doesn't normally video for public dissemination any of their laps on the Ring. There is no "Official" manufacturer's "Ring Record Lap" protocol, and there is no independent verification system in place to verify any manufacturer's Ring time, and that includes GM.
SportAuto recorded a Ring time of 7:24 for the GT2 RS, so even if you take that number it still establishes that the 911 is not an "antiquated" platform/design.
If you think that a video establishes complete credibility you are foolish.
Porsche doesn't normally video for public dissemination any of their laps on the Ring. There is no "Official" manufacturer's "Ring Record Lap" protocol, and there is no independent verification system in place to verify any manufacturer's Ring time, and that includes GM.
SportAuto recorded a Ring time of 7:24 for the GT2 RS, so even if you take that number it still establishes that the 911 is not an "antiquated" platform/design.
08-26-2013, 10:43 AM
#291
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You need to do some homework in marketing and economics to help prevent you from sticking your foot in your mouth.
You and others here have somehow convinced yourselves, through jealousy, or envy, or lack of education, that people who buy cars that cost more than "fill the blank" cars are somehow "stupid". Unless consumers have to have a product, and there is only one supplier for the product, the price people pay for a product is in the end determined by the market. If enough people see enough value (either real or perceived) in a product to pay the asking price, then successful commerce will follow (that is, a producer sets a price that will sustain profits, and the market finds enough value in that product to purchase it).
You may not like it that there are enough people in the world who think there is enough value in a 911 (or a Ferrari, or a Lamborghini) to convince them to pay what these manufacturers ask for those cars, but that is in fact the reality of the situation.
08-26-2013, 11:16 AM
#292
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Do you know that there is no independent verification process for ANY manufacturer's Ring time claims?
Someone would have to know close to nothing about sports cars, or carry severe biases if they do know something about sports cars, to believe that the 911 represents an "antiquated" platform.
Here's what Bridge to Gantry wrote about Ring lap times published by manufacturers...
"There is no 'official' third-party governing body deciding what the record is or isn't, or what qualifies as 'production' or not."
Here's a video of a GT2 RS on the Ring, in traffic (BTG lap). And since the motor is still in the back on this car it doesn't matter if the car is modified or not (I have no idea if it has mods, and if it does what they are, although the owner/driver states the suspension is stock) ) as the point here is whether or not the 911 platform is "antiquated"; it clearly is not "antiquated". As the old adage states..."You can't make chicken salad out of chicken $hit". This lap time is chicken salad.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVr1W...ature=youtu.be
Last edited by Notch; 08-26-2013 at 11:22 AM.
08-26-2013, 11:43 AM
#293
So what you're telling me is that there is no difference in income between an average Corvette buyer and a Veyron buyer. That's it, isn't it?
I'm wondering where the "911 guys all make 200k a year" nonsense came from! People like what they like & smart people buy what they want. My next car might be a 911 turbo & I don't make 200k a year. Just ended that theory! It isn't for status, it's because the C7 has to show me something. I really wish the fake car guys would just leave
Since Achmed is unwilling to answer the question, maybe you should give it a shot: Have you, drmustang, ever paid more than $10 for a meal?
Last edited by Guibo; 08-26-2013 at 12:24 PM.
08-26-2013, 12:08 PM
#294
16 Vettes and counting…..
So that major finding somehow translates into your concept that everyone who buys a Porsche (or a 911) has more money that brains? You're kidding, right?
You need to do some homework in marketing and economics to help prevent you from sticking your foot in your mouth.
You and others here have somehow convinced yourselves, through jealousy, or envy, or lack of education, that people who buy cars that cost more than "fill the blank" cars are somehow "stupid". Unless consumers have to have a product, and there is only one supplier for the product, the price people pay for a product is in the end determined by the market. If enough people see enough value (either real or perceived) in a product to pay the asking price, then successful commerce will follow (that is, a producer sets a price that will sustain profits, and the market finds enough value in that product to purchase it).
You may not like it that there are enough people in the world who think there is enough value in a 911 (or a Ferrari, or a Lamborghini) to convince them to pay what these manufacturers ask for those cars, but that is in fact the reality of the situation.
You need to do some homework in marketing and economics to help prevent you from sticking your foot in your mouth.
You and others here have somehow convinced yourselves, through jealousy, or envy, or lack of education, that people who buy cars that cost more than "fill the blank" cars are somehow "stupid". Unless consumers have to have a product, and there is only one supplier for the product, the price people pay for a product is in the end determined by the market. If enough people see enough value (either real or perceived) in a product to pay the asking price, then successful commerce will follow (that is, a producer sets a price that will sustain profits, and the market finds enough value in that product to purchase it).
You may not like it that there are enough people in the world who think there is enough value in a 911 (or a Ferrari, or a Lamborghini) to convince them to pay what these manufacturers ask for those cars, but that is in fact the reality of the situation.
08-26-2013, 12:10 PM
#295
16 Vettes and counting…..
08-26-2013, 12:18 PM
#296
Le Mans Master
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However, clearly from an economics perspective, Notch is correct on this. The fact is that 911's sell for a lot more than Corvettes. That means the public that buys Porsches has clearly attached that amount of economic value to a Porsche. It may be for a large variety of reasons. Everyone has their own set of priorities in buying a car. They are probably people that could afford to buy a 911 Turbo S and any Corvette that choose to buy a Miata.
Could Corvettes sell for more than they do? Maybe, some. Or it might be like the classic B-school example of Chivas(?) raising the price of their scotch and increasing demand as a result. Their scotch did not get better, but because the price was high there were those that perceived that since it was priced higher than other comparable Scotchs it MUST be better.
On a purely objective basis, as a daily drive to get from A to B, neither the 911 or the Corvette are a good value.
On another point, the 911 is an antiquated platform. All automotive platforms on the market in a generic sense are antiquated. There have been rear engine cars for years, same for front and mid-engine. A rear engine platform is not ideal for a high performance sports car. However, Porsche has done a fabulous job at engineering around that handicap. Just as the Corvette team has done a fabulous job of engineering around the short comings of its platform. Street cars by necessity are a set of design compromises.
08-26-2013, 12:21 PM
#297
Exactly what I was thinking, how would they know what people's incomes are? The only time the dealership even knows the income amount is if you're financing it through them, so right off the bat all the cash buyers or people who are financing through their bank are not included....and then I would imagine the financiers are not allowed to disclose individual's income anyway, so really no idea where these #'s are coming from but what I do know is they are not reliable.
08-26-2013, 12:23 PM
#298
Good for you. These guys are amazing aren't they. Trolls who memorize car magazines, slobber over Porsches and degrade Corvette enthusiasts. You and everyone else is smart not to respond to their idiotic questions asked for no other reason to aggravate.
I wonder if these tools realize that they are a huge source of cheap entertainment and are certainly not taken seriously.
I wonder if these tools realize that they are a huge source of cheap entertainment and are certainly not taken seriously.
08-26-2013, 12:24 PM
#299
Other than the accidental quotes hasn't everyone just used the ignored feature on gumbo and notched?
Long drawn out copy and past arguments that have little to do with the new c7 corvette and more to do about pontification?
I don't even read the posts as I see the their names any more...
They do keep the board moving but there's no substance worth reading..
No offense intended to those who like to bore us sports car enthusiasts to death with how great every other sports car is compared to corvette..
When they haven't even driven the new c7 yet....
While the press that has driven the c7 are RAVING ABOUT IT...
Long drawn out copy and past arguments that have little to do with the new c7 corvette and more to do about pontification?
I don't even read the posts as I see the their names any more...
They do keep the board moving but there's no substance worth reading..
No offense intended to those who like to bore us sports car enthusiasts to death with how great every other sports car is compared to corvette..
When they haven't even driven the new c7 yet....
While the press that has driven the c7 are RAVING ABOUT IT...
LOL the fact that they both continue to post here knowing so many people have them on ignore and aren't reading their posts just further shows how sad their value for their time is, to be spending so much arguing when only a few are actually reading what they have to say.
08-26-2013, 12:41 PM
#300
Notch and I don't agree about a lot of things, as is clear.
However, clearly from an economics perspective, Notch is correct on this. The fact is that 911's sell for a lot more than Corvettes. That means the public that buys Porsches has clearly attached that amount of economic value to a Porsche. It may be for a large variety of reasons. Everyone has their own set of priorities in buying a car. They are probably people that could afford to buy a 911 Turbo S and any Corvette that choose to buy a Miata.
Could Corvettes sell for more than they do? Maybe, some. Or it might be like the classic B-school example of Chivas(?) raising the price of their scotch and increasing demand as a result. Their scotch did not get better, but because the price was high there were those that perceived that since it was priced higher than other comparable Scotchs it MUST be better.
On a purely objective basis, as a daily drive to get from A to B, neither the 911 or the Corvette are a good value.
On another point, the 911 is an antiquated platform. All automotive platforms on the market in a generic sense are antiquated. There have been rear engine cars for years, same for front and mid-engine. A rear engine platform is not ideal for a high performance sports car. However, Porsche has done a fabulous job at engineering around that handicap. Just as the Corvette team has done a fabulous job of engineering around the short comings of its platform. Street cars by necessity are a set of design compromises.
However, clearly from an economics perspective, Notch is correct on this. The fact is that 911's sell for a lot more than Corvettes. That means the public that buys Porsches has clearly attached that amount of economic value to a Porsche. It may be for a large variety of reasons. Everyone has their own set of priorities in buying a car. They are probably people that could afford to buy a 911 Turbo S and any Corvette that choose to buy a Miata.
Could Corvettes sell for more than they do? Maybe, some. Or it might be like the classic B-school example of Chivas(?) raising the price of their scotch and increasing demand as a result. Their scotch did not get better, but because the price was high there were those that perceived that since it was priced higher than other comparable Scotchs it MUST be better.
On a purely objective basis, as a daily drive to get from A to B, neither the 911 or the Corvette are a good value.
On another point, the 911 is an antiquated platform. All automotive platforms on the market in a generic sense are antiquated. There have been rear engine cars for years, same for front and mid-engine. A rear engine platform is not ideal for a high performance sports car. However, Porsche has done a fabulous job at engineering around that handicap. Just as the Corvette team has done a fabulous job of engineering around the short comings of its platform. Street cars by necessity are a set of design compromises.