New Magazine test of C7 vs 911
08-26-2013, 12:45 PM
#301
Exactly, I see no motivation to make an account on a Porsche forum to argue with them over what's better between Porsche and Corvette. I like Corvette so I post here, and sometimes I fall for the bait of these trolls but then other times I ignore them. I can't imagine what type of sad person makes an account on a forum of a car he does not like or sees himself buying, just to push another brand that he likes.
And the answer to your question that you could not answer, as published in the spec book provided by GM to its dealers on the C6Z:
"Target Customer Demographics, '06 Z06
% Male: 90
Age Range: 35-54
Median Household Income: $135k
% Married: 70
% Professional Management: 64"
So much for the theory that demographics don't matter. From the standpoint of the business (not a bunch of CF performance stat obsessives), demographics can determine if the car is even built in the first place, and whether it is successful.
As we have seen through the years, Z06s account for a minority of Corvette purchasers, and have been getting smaller and smaller. They would not likely affect the median income level too significantly. But the relationship between the price of the '06 Z and its target demographic income lines up pretty closely with the common advice about what kind of car you can afford: Roughly half a year's salary.
Even if you think (and have yet to prove) that the median Corvette buyer's salary is $100k, then even at that price, our estimate of a median Corvette transaction price (say, $60k), still accounts for a significantly higher portion of that buyer's income, compared to the median Porsche owner buying a $130k 991 S. 60% vs 33%. It should be clear that the 911 buyer has more disposable income. And it's a safe bet that the typical Veyron buyer has more disposable income than the typical 911 buyer. To suggest otherwise is foolish.
08-26-2013, 12:51 PM
#302
Exactly what I was thinking, how would they know what people's incomes are? The only time the dealership even knows the income amount is if you're financing it through them, so right off the bat all the cash buyers or people who are financing through their bank are not included....and then I would imagine the financiers are not allowed to disclose individual's income anyway, so really no idea where these #'s are coming from but what I do know is they are not reliable.
08-26-2013, 12:56 PM
#303
16 Vettes and counting…..
Re: TMPS Tool
Notch and I don't agree about a lot of things, as is clear.
However, clearly from an economics perspective, Notch is correct on this. The fact is that 911's sell for a lot more than Corvettes. That means the public that buys Porsches has clearly attached that amount of economic value to a Porsche. It may be for a large variety of reasons. Everyone has their own set of priorities in buying a car. They are probably people that could afford to buy a 911 Turbo S and any Corvette that choose to buy a Miata.
Could Corvettes sell for more than they do? Maybe, some. Or it might be like the classic B-school example of Chivas(?) raising the price of their scotch and increasing demand as a result. Their scotch did not get better, but because the price was high there were those that perceived that since it was priced higher than other comparable Scotchs it MUST be better.
On a purely objective basis, as a daily drive to get from A to B, neither the 911 or the Corvette are a good value.
On another point, the 911 is an antiquated platform. All automotive platforms on the market in a generic sense are antiquated. There have been rear engine cars for years, same for front and mid-engine. A rear engine platform is not ideal for a high performance sports car. However, Porsche has done a fabulous job at engineering around that handicap. Just as the Corvette team has done a fabulous job of engineering around the short comings of its platform. Street cars by necessity are a set of design compromises.
However, clearly from an economics perspective, Notch is correct on this. The fact is that 911's sell for a lot more than Corvettes. That means the public that buys Porsches has clearly attached that amount of economic value to a Porsche. It may be for a large variety of reasons. Everyone has their own set of priorities in buying a car. They are probably people that could afford to buy a 911 Turbo S and any Corvette that choose to buy a Miata.
Could Corvettes sell for more than they do? Maybe, some. Or it might be like the classic B-school example of Chivas(?) raising the price of their scotch and increasing demand as a result. Their scotch did not get better, but because the price was high there were those that perceived that since it was priced higher than other comparable Scotchs it MUST be better.
On a purely objective basis, as a daily drive to get from A to B, neither the 911 or the Corvette are a good value.
On another point, the 911 is an antiquated platform. All automotive platforms on the market in a generic sense are antiquated. There have been rear engine cars for years, same for front and mid-engine. A rear engine platform is not ideal for a high performance sports car. However, Porsche has done a fabulous job at engineering around that handicap. Just as the Corvette team has done a fabulous job of engineering around the short comings of its platform. Street cars by necessity are a set of design compromises.
All points well taken. Agreed.
08-26-2013, 01:39 PM
#305
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Methodology wouldn't likely change from one manufacturer to the next and if you think it would, please explain why. And why would the crash even matter? Do you think income inequality has narrowed since then? In case you haven't noticed, 911 sales have rebounded more than Corvette sales (yes, using the last model year figure for the 997).
So what you're telling me is that there is no difference in income between an average Corvette buyer and a Veyron buyer. That's it, isn't it?
So what you're telling me is that there is no difference in income between an average Corvette buyer and a Veyron buyer. That's it, isn't it?
Aside form this being a C7 forum, not an "off topic" or "armchair econ 101" chat room, I see no use in discussing consumer discretionary spending in the wake of the largest global economic collapse in recorded history and argue the crash "doesn't even matter."
If you check published 911 sales by Porsche itself or Wards or some authoritative source, you'll see the 997 was failing (in sales and in racing) and the 991 has recovered to pre-crash 911 levels, though ironically, the 991 still uses the 997 power train for the race track. In sales, that means Porsche flat-lined the last half decade and has years of revenue shortfalls to recoup. Meanwhile, they lost ownership of their business in a struggle with VW and were swallowed whole. Porsche executives have nothing to crow about.
I don't follow your reference to "income inequality" (you should google that expression) nor introducing the suggestion that Vette drivers are paid the same as Veyron drivers.
This forum is a great resource and there's some people here bringing useful and interesting information about the new car. I don't think it deserves to have threads degenerate into open-ended political debate or argumentative bickering.
I expect you'll want to debate further, so I can only suggest you take your ideas to the "off topic" forum.
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/off-topic-26/
08-26-2013, 02:08 PM
#306
Le Mans Master
The problem with their "if people are willing to pay for it then the price is fair" argument is that there will always be people with money who are willing to part with it for the most minor (and often status driven) reasons. For ex. NBA players or rappers who "make it rain" at the bar by dishing out a bunch of $100 bills while others in the crowd sadly leap at them. These types usually also bring a huge entourage and pay for all of their tables just to show that they can afford to pay for a large entourage to equal or one up the next rapper. What are they getting out of this besides their own perception of status? Does that mean the status is "worth it" from an economic standpoint? Maybe for the select few who crave status it is, but not for the majority of the population.
08-26-2013, 02:15 PM
#307
911 is nothing but a Halo car. It is not the best car they could build but they cannot stop making it anymore than Chevy would stop making Corvettes.
A GT2RS is the Porsche's equivalent of a ZR1 so if anything below a ZR1 is getting close to a GT2RS on the ring, that is substantial.
I dont think people cross shop Vettes and 911's all that much. I cross shopped a vette on the second pcar I bought right after the C6 launched and it was such a POS a beelined back to pcar. : )
The Vette is not really that affordable and it makes me laugh when people say Porsches gouge customers. Last time I checked, full leather in a Porsche was exactly the same price as 3Lt is in a Vette.
A GT2RS is the Porsche's equivalent of a ZR1 so if anything below a ZR1 is getting close to a GT2RS on the ring, that is substantial.
I dont think people cross shop Vettes and 911's all that much. I cross shopped a vette on the second pcar I bought right after the C6 launched and it was such a POS a beelined back to pcar. : )
The Vette is not really that affordable and it makes me laugh when people say Porsches gouge customers. Last time I checked, full leather in a Porsche was exactly the same price as 3Lt is in a Vette.
08-26-2013, 02:51 PM
#308
I pointed out you're quoting dated, unsubstantiated numbers with no source reference. The article you reference is dated 2008.
Aside form this being a C7 forum, not an "off topic" or "armchair econ 101" chat room, I see no use in discussing consumer discretionary spending in the wake of the largest global economic collapse in recorded history and argue the crash "doesn't even matter."
If you check published 911 sales by Porsche itself or Wards or some authoritative source, you'll see the 997 was failing (in sales and in racing) and the 991 has recovered to pre-crash 911 levels, though ironically, the 991 still uses the 997 power train for the race track. In sales, that means Porsche flat-lined the last half decade and has years of revenue shortfalls to recoup. Meanwhile, they lost ownership of their business in a struggle with VW and were swallowed whole. Porsche executives have nothing to crow about.
I don't follow your reference to "income inequality" (you should google that expression) nor introducing the suggestion that Vette drivers are paid the same as Veyron drivers.
This forum is a great resource and there's some people here bringing useful and interesting information about the new car. I don't think it deserves to have threads degenerate into open-ended political debate or argumentative bickering.
I expect you'll want to debate further, so I can only suggest you take your ideas to the "off topic" forum.
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/off-topic-26/
Aside form this being a C7 forum, not an "off topic" or "armchair econ 101" chat room, I see no use in discussing consumer discretionary spending in the wake of the largest global economic collapse in recorded history and argue the crash "doesn't even matter."
If you check published 911 sales by Porsche itself or Wards or some authoritative source, you'll see the 997 was failing (in sales and in racing) and the 991 has recovered to pre-crash 911 levels, though ironically, the 991 still uses the 997 power train for the race track. In sales, that means Porsche flat-lined the last half decade and has years of revenue shortfalls to recoup. Meanwhile, they lost ownership of their business in a struggle with VW and were swallowed whole. Porsche executives have nothing to crow about.
I don't follow your reference to "income inequality" (you should google that expression) nor introducing the suggestion that Vette drivers are paid the same as Veyron drivers.
This forum is a great resource and there's some people here bringing useful and interesting information about the new car. I don't think it deserves to have threads degenerate into open-ended political debate or argumentative bickering.
I expect you'll want to debate further, so I can only suggest you take your ideas to the "off topic" forum.
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/off-topic-26/
This topic seems fine to me to discuss here. People have been debating for pages about prices and worth between 911s and Corvette, so it's not really O.T.. And if you want to bring up the fish nearly swallowing up the whale (VW), that talks more to Porsche's success than GM losing 10s of billions of dollars in some years leading up to the eventual bailout.
Why is it so hard for you to believe that 911 buyers have higher median income than Vette buyers? I don't see anything political about this, and the only bickering and name-calling has come from the other side.
08-26-2013, 02:57 PM
#309
FYI the strip clubs usually pay those MBA players and rappers to come in and make it "rain" so even though the rain is falling its very rarely their money. They actually make money. A club will pay on average 40k. Said person throws 10k or more on strippers and booze and has money leftover or they may spend the whole 40k.
Regardless though, I can give another example of how these celebs take their entourage's on shopping sprees too, I doubt any stores are fronting their bill. I think that's what got MC Hammer bankrupt, I'm sure there's a list of others too.
08-26-2013, 02:59 PM
#310
911 is nothing but a Halo car. It is not the best car they could build but they cannot stop making it anymore than Chevy would stop making Corvettes.
A GT2RS is the Porsche's equivalent of a ZR1 so if anything below a ZR1 is getting close to a GT2RS on the ring, that is substantial.
I dont think people cross shop Vettes and 911's all that much. I cross shopped a vette on the second pcar I bought right after the C6 launched and it was such a POS a beelined back to pcar. : )
The Vette is not really that affordable and it makes me laugh when people say Porsches gouge customers. Last time I checked, full leather in a Porsche was exactly the same price as 3Lt is in a Vette.
A GT2RS is the Porsche's equivalent of a ZR1 so if anything below a ZR1 is getting close to a GT2RS on the ring, that is substantial.
I dont think people cross shop Vettes and 911's all that much. I cross shopped a vette on the second pcar I bought right after the C6 launched and it was such a POS a beelined back to pcar. : )
The Vette is not really that affordable and it makes me laugh when people say Porsches gouge customers. Last time I checked, full leather in a Porsche was exactly the same price as 3Lt is in a Vette.
I still wouldn't pay for it myself though, but I'm sure if you got the same options on a Porsche as all that's included in the 3LT you'll be looking much higher than $8k.
08-26-2013, 03:10 PM
#311
But the 3LT Corvette interior comes with a ton of other features, you're not just paying for the leather interior with the $8k.
I still wouldn't pay for it myself though, but I'm sure if you got the same options on a Porsche as all that's included in the 3LT you'll be looking much higher than $8k.
I still wouldn't pay for it myself though, but I'm sure if you got the same options on a Porsche as all that's included in the 3LT you'll be looking much higher than $8k.
I think this whole thread is nonsense anyway. No one buying a 911/Vette is going to be swayed one way or the other. Someone wanting 911 may "settle" for a Vette which is exactly what I did with my C5. They are VERY different cars and very different people buy them. And yes A LOT of Pcar buyers buy them simply because they know others cannot. Its like a country club membership. Always will be.
08-26-2013, 03:16 PM
#312
Just the leather is/was 3200 for a pcar and you can do it ala carte which you cannot do with a Vette
I think this whole thread is nonsense anyway. No one buying a 911/Vette is going to be swayed one way or the other. Someone wanting 911 may "settle" for a Vette which is exactly what I did with my C5. They are VERY different cars and very different people buy them. And yes A LOT of Pcar buyers buy them simply because they know others cannot. Its like a country club membership. Always will be.
I think this whole thread is nonsense anyway. No one buying a 911/Vette is going to be swayed one way or the other. Someone wanting 911 may "settle" for a Vette which is exactly what I did with my C5. They are VERY different cars and very different people buy them. And yes A LOT of Pcar buyers buy them simply because they know others cannot. Its like a country club membership. Always will be.
08-26-2013, 03:18 PM
#313
Speaking of 3LT, the prevalence of top-end options packages increases substantially as Corvette trims increase in price (from base C6 to ZR1). For 4LT, the take rate was 5.6 times greater at the Grand Sport convertible level than it was at the base coupe level. Are higher-end Corvette buyers shelling out the extra money in trim options just to show their status over base Corvette buyers? For those who claim there is no meaningful difference in median income between 911 and Corvette buyers, can there be meaningful differences in the median income of a 1LT base purchaser vs a 3ZR ZR1 buyer?
08-26-2013, 03:33 PM
#314
Race Director
How do you add someone to ignore? I clicked on Notch's profile to see an Ignore function but didn't see it. I'd like to add both Notch and Guibo.
LOL the fact that they both continue to post here knowing so many people have them on ignore and aren't reading their posts just further shows how sad their value for their time is, to be spending so much arguing when only a few are actually reading what they have to say.
LOL the fact that they both continue to post here knowing so many people have them on ignore and aren't reading their posts just further shows how sad their value for their time is, to be spending so much arguing when only a few are actually reading what they have to say.
I have added 4X as may folks to my ignore list from poking around the C7 section over the past year than I did in the 7 previous years after I joined the Forum in '05.
This troll phenomenon is really weird. I have yet to visit any other forums to see if pathetic folks who happen to love Vettes are in there harassing Porsche, BMW and Jaguar fans just for the fun of it. But, I would imagine there are. Why would there be anything inherent in any particular car make that would make their fans 100% immune to this sociopathic behavior?
08-26-2013, 03:50 PM
#315
Go into your "User CP" and there's a menu down the left side. About halfway down click on "Edit Ignore List." Pretty easy at that point.
I have added 4X as may folks to my ignore list from poking around the C7 section over the past year than I did in the 7 previous years after I joined the Forum in '05.
This troll phenomenon is really weird. I have yet to visit any other forums to see if pathetic folks who happen to love Vettes are in there harassing Porsche, BMW and Jaguar fans just for the fun of it. But, I would imagine there are. Why would there be anything inherent in any particular car make that would make their fans 100% immune to this sociopathic behavior?
I have added 4X as may folks to my ignore list from poking around the C7 section over the past year than I did in the 7 previous years after I joined the Forum in '05.
This troll phenomenon is really weird. I have yet to visit any other forums to see if pathetic folks who happen to love Vettes are in there harassing Porsche, BMW and Jaguar fans just for the fun of it. But, I would imagine there are. Why would there be anything inherent in any particular car make that would make their fans 100% immune to this sociopathic behavior?
08-26-2013, 04:14 PM
#316
Le Mans Master
08-26-2013, 04:33 PM
#317
Le Mans Master
FYI the strip clubs usually pay those MBA players and rappers to come in and make it "rain" so even though the rain is falling its very rarely their money. They actually make money. A club will pay on average 40k. Said person throws 10k or more on strippers and booze and has money leftover or they may spend the whole 40k.
08-26-2013, 05:10 PM
#318
Le Mans Master
08-26-2013, 06:26 PM
#319
Le Mans Master
08-26-2013, 07:08 PM
#320
Race Director
