OT: Viper Cuts Production - Impact on ZO7 or ZR!?
10-03-2013, 08:59 AM
#21
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The problem with Viper is the new model has been rejected by those who in the past have been loyal Viper owners.
Getting beat by the outgoing ZR1 in a magazine face off was a marketing disaster even though it was a pre-production example that got shown the way home by a ten year old design corvette
The fact that a nationally recognized driver said the car scared him, and the magazine writers said the seats made their back hurt had a major effect on those most likely to purchase the viper...... the same persons who will purchase the next hi performance model of the corvette.
Getting beat by the outgoing ZR1 in a magazine face off was a marketing disaster even though it was a pre-production example that got shown the way home by a ten year old design corvette
The fact that a nationally recognized driver said the car scared him, and the magazine writers said the seats made their back hurt had a major effect on those most likely to purchase the viper...... the same persons who will purchase the next hi performance model of the corvette.
10-03-2013, 09:23 AM
#22
Safety Car
I think the C7 also kinda stole or killed a lot of the new Viper "return" buzz... I heard a good bit about the new Viper returning, but after the C7 buzz started rolling it seems like the hype kinda died over the return of the Viper.
10-03-2013, 09:43 AM
#23
Drifting
And give it a rest with the ZR1 beating a mule guys, a five year built proven and perfected product with SC's and CCB's lost to a freshly built TA...PERIOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I'd way rather have a Viper Gen 5 than a C6Z. Those who bash the Viper just might not have seen one in person. They have a charisma and beauty that no Corvette does, maybe not even a C7. It's a shame that SRT made three big mistakes--making their pre-orders wait until all the dealer showroom candy was built, not offering a convertible, and stacking on the options, jacking MSRP over $130-140,000 or more, and THEN dealers stuck "market adjustment" on top of that!
I don't think this will affect the C7Z because there's such a buzz about the regular C7 that the Z will be a relatively easy sell. Also remember, SRT/Dodge/Chrysler/Fiat has to tie up an entire 400,000sqft plant in the heart of Detroit to make a handful of Vipers, while C7Zs will roll down the same line as all the others, pretty much paying for themselves as they go.
10-03-2013, 09:49 AM
#24
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the few Viper drawbacks have been the same since it's introduction:
* not a daily driver -type- automobile
* looks like a kit car (not as much now though)
The Viper engine should be in all art museums, under glass. It is a thing of beauty; but there wasn't much else in the rest of the car to compliment it. Just lately are they adding some items that the car should of had years ago; but is it too-little too-late ?
* not a daily driver -type- automobile
* looks like a kit car (not as much now though)
The Viper engine should be in all art museums, under glass. It is a thing of beauty; but there wasn't much else in the rest of the car to compliment it. Just lately are they adding some items that the car should of had years ago; but is it too-little too-late ?
10-03-2013, 09:59 AM
#25
Safety Car
1. I think the car is overpriced for the current market conditions.
2. I think the car is stuck in between raw and refined. In that it's much nicer than it used to be (which turns off the hard core Viper guys), but it doesn't have top notch tech like the Vette or exotics i.e. a good active handling system, eDiff, etc. etc. They didn't have the budget of Government Motors and it shows
My hats off to them for creating the car they did, but technology is the future. The $50k C7 can keep up with the $110k+ Viper on a road course even with the Viper's huge power and tire advantage.
Plus, the C7 is a truly daily drivable car... not so much with the Viper.
I still haven't owned a Viper due to my height (6'4") I just don't fit. I really want a Snakeskin Green GenIV someday.
2. I think the car is stuck in between raw and refined. In that it's much nicer than it used to be (which turns off the hard core Viper guys), but it doesn't have top notch tech like the Vette or exotics i.e. a good active handling system, eDiff, etc. etc. They didn't have the budget of Government Motors and it shows
My hats off to them for creating the car they did, but technology is the future. The $50k C7 can keep up with the $110k+ Viper on a road course even with the Viper's huge power and tire advantage.
Plus, the C7 is a truly daily drivable car... not so much with the Viper.
I still haven't owned a Viper due to my height (6'4") I just don't fit. I really want a Snakeskin Green GenIV someday.
10-03-2013, 10:09 AM
#26
Le Mans Master
Interesting:
http://www.worldcarfans.com/11310026...-to-slow-sales
Not to start an anti-Viper argument and how they got here - but what sort of impact will this have on the C7, and more importantly how will GM management see the market for the highest HiPo C7s?
If Viper sales are this soft, and the C7 is doing well enough (I don't believe all the GM hype) I'd have to think that a GM course of action would be to minimize the investment - especially delay - HiPo C7s?
Thoughts?
http://www.worldcarfans.com/11310026...-to-slow-sales
Not to start an anti-Viper argument and how they got here - but what sort of impact will this have on the C7, and more importantly how will GM management see the market for the highest HiPo C7s?
If Viper sales are this soft, and the C7 is doing well enough (I don't believe all the GM hype) I'd have to think that a GM course of action would be to minimize the investment - especially delay - HiPo C7s?
Thoughts?
10-03-2013, 10:17 AM
#27
Burning Brakes
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As someone who actually owns a 2013 Viper, not just useless conjecture - the issue more or less is dealers saw the more expensive GTS as a get rich quick scheme.
Of the 800 cars built, only 170 were the cheaper SRT model. 100 of those were exact copies, the base SRT Red with Track Pack models. So, only 70 configurations of base SRT models were ordered by dealers, mostly custom orders.
Dealers saw the GTS as "easy money" and checked every option. So, instead of $100-110 cars sitting on lots, you have lots filled with $140k cars. Now, some might say "oh it is only $30-40k more" - but that is still a good chunk of change. Just because you can swing $100k doesn't mean you can swing $140k.
And comparisons to the "Dart" interior are off base. It shows you are absolutely clueless.
Another issue was the custom order process. I ordered back in November and was told a March delivery. I got the car in July. Yeah, not acceptable. All that while cars were sitting on dealer lots. Sorry, that really isn't acceptable. Many custom orders were months behind, but the exact same car you could find on a dealer lot via autotrader.
SRT messed up big time with that.
In all, the car is unbelievable. I love it. I drive it daily everywhere. It is refined, yet still raw.
If dealers got asses in seats to test the car, I think they would move. It is hard to up sell someone buying a Dart to something that cost 2-3x as much as the most expensive vehicle on their floorplan.
I also think this spells worry for the HiPo corvette model. Look at the sales numbers of the ZR1 and Z06 and you'll see they were sluggish as well. The economy is still garbage (Look at what happens to the market when the Fed hints at pulling back QE...)
We shall see. I hope the Viper stays around - and so should everyone on this forum. Without it, the ZR1 has no real competition to improve against.
Of the 800 cars built, only 170 were the cheaper SRT model. 100 of those were exact copies, the base SRT Red with Track Pack models. So, only 70 configurations of base SRT models were ordered by dealers, mostly custom orders.
Dealers saw the GTS as "easy money" and checked every option. So, instead of $100-110 cars sitting on lots, you have lots filled with $140k cars. Now, some might say "oh it is only $30-40k more" - but that is still a good chunk of change. Just because you can swing $100k doesn't mean you can swing $140k.
And comparisons to the "Dart" interior are off base. It shows you are absolutely clueless.
Another issue was the custom order process. I ordered back in November and was told a March delivery. I got the car in July. Yeah, not acceptable. All that while cars were sitting on dealer lots. Sorry, that really isn't acceptable. Many custom orders were months behind, but the exact same car you could find on a dealer lot via autotrader.
SRT messed up big time with that.
In all, the car is unbelievable. I love it. I drive it daily everywhere. It is refined, yet still raw.
If dealers got asses in seats to test the car, I think they would move. It is hard to up sell someone buying a Dart to something that cost 2-3x as much as the most expensive vehicle on their floorplan.
I also think this spells worry for the HiPo corvette model. Look at the sales numbers of the ZR1 and Z06 and you'll see they were sluggish as well. The economy is still garbage (Look at what happens to the market when the Fed hints at pulling back QE...)
We shall see. I hope the Viper stays around - and so should everyone on this forum. Without it, the ZR1 has no real competition to improve against.
10-03-2013, 10:18 AM
#28
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Pit Viper
I've only been in one Viper. One too many. I can't recall the last time I saw one on the road. This is a town of 650K folks. Of course, there are some a small sum. We were at an auto auction. A 2005 was stuck at $14K when the owner dropped the reserve. It sold for $14.5K. It had 3500 miles on it. That is used Taurus money. It will have zero effect going forward as it has had looking back.
10-03-2013, 10:25 AM
#29
Burning Brakes
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Come on guys....the Corvette interior is not that good! I own a 2010 Viper ACR and 2013 Corvette ZR1 both interiors leave plenty of room for improvement.
Both are amazing American Sports Car and it would be terrible to use either one!
Both are amazing American Sports Car and it would be terrible to use either one!
10-03-2013, 10:37 AM
#30
Safety Car
Harlold, what a great post.
Big Wash, yours on the other hand makes for the best laugh of the day. A 2005 Viper with 3500 miles on it is easily a 35-40k car, unless of course it was wrapped around a tree. I would have written a check for 20k on the spot, frankly I don't believe it. No offense to you but everything has a value and a 2005 Viper has lots of it.
Big Wash, yours on the other hand makes for the best laugh of the day. A 2005 Viper with 3500 miles on it is easily a 35-40k car, unless of course it was wrapped around a tree. I would have written a check for 20k on the spot, frankly I don't believe it. No offense to you but everything has a value and a 2005 Viper has lots of it.
10-03-2013, 10:37 AM
#31
Safety Car
Political climate is part of the issue, the uncertainty of how much, if anything, we will have to pay more is affecting sales of big cost devaluating items like 6 figure domestic cars.
Chevy will face the same issues
Zr1 were sold at deep discounts in the past two years, if not more, which tells me the pri e point was to high. The viper has the same issue.
no test driving. I've never driven one and there's nothing to compare it too in their line up (unlike a vette where you could at least drive a base and even a z06 to get an general idea of what the zr1 would be like). That does not win over first time viper owners. Sorry I do not do any comitment to buy 100k plus vehicle without even knowing if i would remotly like how it drives.
Out of two dealers, one let me sat in it immediatly the other, even with my zr1 parked outside in plain site took alot of "talk to" before even letting me sit in it.
I get keys thrown at me to sit and test drive 150k new 911 at the P dealer -domestic need to get a clue about customer service.
C7z maybe more popular though if one like myself doesn't like a certain area of the car we probably won't get one... and it would need to be substancially better than the outgoing zr1, not "split hair driver mod with the planets lined up only on sunday between temps of 60-63 degrees and dense air with glue on the track" a la srt vs zr1
ps: if the viper has the same interior as the dart then the c7 has the same i terior as a 94 c4... enough said.
Chevy will face the same issues
Zr1 were sold at deep discounts in the past two years, if not more, which tells me the pri e point was to high. The viper has the same issue.
no test driving. I've never driven one and there's nothing to compare it too in their line up (unlike a vette where you could at least drive a base and even a z06 to get an general idea of what the zr1 would be like). That does not win over first time viper owners. Sorry I do not do any comitment to buy 100k plus vehicle without even knowing if i would remotly like how it drives.
Out of two dealers, one let me sat in it immediatly the other, even with my zr1 parked outside in plain site took alot of "talk to" before even letting me sit in it.
I get keys thrown at me to sit and test drive 150k new 911 at the P dealer -domestic need to get a clue about customer service.
C7z maybe more popular though if one like myself doesn't like a certain area of the car we probably won't get one... and it would need to be substancially better than the outgoing zr1, not "split hair driver mod with the planets lined up only on sunday between temps of 60-63 degrees and dense air with glue on the track" a la srt vs zr1
ps: if the viper has the same interior as the dart then the c7 has the same i terior as a 94 c4... enough said.
Last edited by mirage2991; 10-03-2013 at 10:50 AM.
10-03-2013, 10:43 AM
#32
Drifting
The new Viper is a great car but I think they messed up on the pricing. I don't know how they thought they would sell at those kind of prices. Maybe they should revese the trend and lower msrp for a change. And a lot of the articles echo the same roughness and hard to live with attributes that people complained about in the previous generations. Giles claimed the car was so different and I think they failed to prove that. And saying they benchmarked the car with the ZR1 and losing to it on the track probably didn't help either. They did improve the interior though.
10-03-2013, 10:46 AM
#33
Burning Brakes
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The new Viper is a great car but I think they messed up on the pricing. I don't know how they thought they would sell at those kind of prices. Maybe they should revese the trend and lower msrp for a change. And a lot of the articles echo the same roughness and hard to live with attributes that people complained about in the previous generations. Giles claimed the car was so different and I think they failed to prove that. And saying they benchmarked the car with the ZR1 and losing to it on the track probably didn't help either. They did improve the interior though.
Political climate is part of the issue, the uncertainty of how much, if anything, we will have to pay more is affecting sales of big cost devaluating items like 6 figure domestic cars.
Chevy will face the same issues
Zr1 were sold at deep discounts in the past two years, if not more, which tells me the pri e point was to high. The viper has the same issue.
no test driving. I've never driven one and there's nothing to compare it too in their line up (unlike a vette where you could at least drive a base and even a z06 to get an general idea of what the zr1 would be like). That does not win over first time viper owners. Sorry I do not do any comitment to buy 100k plus vehicle without even knowing if i would remotly like how it drives.
Out of two dealers, one let me sat in it immediatly the other, even with my zr1 parked outside in plain site took alot of "talk to" before even letting me sit in it.
I get keys thrown at me to sit and test drive 150k new 911 at the P dealer -domestic need to get a clue about customer service.
C7z maybe more popular though if one like myself doesn't like a certain area of the car we probably won't get one... and it would need to be substancially better than the outgoing zr1, not "split hair driver mod with the planets lined up only on sunday between temps of 60-63 degrees and dense air with glue on the track" a la srt vs zr1.
ps: if the viper has the same interior as the dart then the c7 has the same i terior as a 94 c4... enough said.
Chevy will face the same issues
Zr1 were sold at deep discounts in the past two years, if not more, which tells me the pri e point was to high. The viper has the same issue.
no test driving. I've never driven one and there's nothing to compare it too in their line up (unlike a vette where you could at least drive a base and even a z06 to get an general idea of what the zr1 would be like). That does not win over first time viper owners. Sorry I do not do any comitment to buy 100k plus vehicle without even knowing if i would remotly like how it drives.
Out of two dealers, one let me sat in it immediatly the other, even with my zr1 parked outside in plain site took alot of "talk to" before even letting me sit in it.
I get keys thrown at me to sit and test drive 150k new 911 at the P dealer -domestic need to get a clue about customer service.
C7z maybe more popular though if one like myself doesn't like a certain area of the car we probably won't get one... and it would need to be substancially better than the outgoing zr1, not "split hair driver mod with the planets lined up only on sunday between temps of 60-63 degrees and dense air with glue on the track" a la srt vs zr1.
ps: if the viper has the same interior as the dart then the c7 has the same i terior as a 94 c4... enough said.
Nissan was the same, the GT-R, no test drives so I left the dealership (I was serious about buying one)
Then again, a local dealer wanted me to prequalify for testing a 09 Z06... LOL I laughed and left.
10-03-2013, 10:55 AM
#35
Le Mans Master
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Chrysler has perhaps fatally blundered by moving the perennially slow selling Viper to a point where it is now so overpriced, even their die-hard loyalists won't buy. Period - end of story. All other discussion points, though valid, are peripheral to their grandiose overpricing.
10-03-2013, 10:58 AM
#36
Safety Car
High line dealers don't have bozos coming in to buy Sparks and Cruzes who have no business coonfingering (a great word I learned from this forum two days ago) the high end stuff. That's partly to explain why they're more guarded.
10-03-2013, 11:02 AM
#37
Drifting
That's why I said maybe they should actually lower the msrp. And by the way the GTS gets up into the $140k range. They are overpriced and that's the problem......well one of the problems.
10-03-2013, 11:07 AM
#38
Burning Brakes
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You can get into a Viper for $100k, IMHO isn't bad at all - considering C7 427's were in the $90k range.
Dealer greed has created a lot of the issue, IMHO.
10-03-2013, 11:17 AM
#39
Burning Brakes
In my experience the dealer did not know how to sell them. I was just trying to buy used and another random guy there at the same time was looking at new ones. Salesman knew nothing about any of the vipers they had, and we were discouraged from even sitting in them. I watched the other guy leave shaking his head and get into his c6z and drive off.
My father sold cars, so I usually give dealers the benefit of the doubt but it was really bad.
My father sold cars, so I usually give dealers the benefit of the doubt but it was really bad.
Last edited by The Panther; 10-04-2013 at 02:42 PM.
10-03-2013, 11:25 AM
#40
Le Mans Master
Some people out there in the world just don't get it! The Viper began its life in 1992, the Corvette in 1953, the Viper has sold 20 something thousand total, the Corvette has done that in any one given year dozens of times. The Viper was always a more expensive (until the ZR1 which in case if you haven't looked the sales suck on from day one) exclusive car for the guy who wanted to challenge his own abilities.
Bottom line is that most people don't recognize an American sports car to be worth over 100k yet they'll spend that times 2-3-4 on something European that can't hold a candle to the Viper or ZR1.
For those who don't know the Viper, NSX and yes the Miata revitalized the sports car market in the early 90's, if those cars did not get introduced who knows how the segment would have flourished.
If GM comes out with a 100k plus performer it too will not sell manyu units, i.e. the ZR1 and even the less expensive ZO6. The novelty is over, those high end buyers only want Euro sports cars sadly.
Anyone who is happy to see the Viper go away is not a real car guy, just a blow hard with an axe to grind!
Bottom line is that most people don't recognize an American sports car to be worth over 100k yet they'll spend that times 2-3-4 on something European that can't hold a candle to the Viper or ZR1.
For those who don't know the Viper, NSX and yes the Miata revitalized the sports car market in the early 90's, if those cars did not get introduced who knows how the segment would have flourished.
If GM comes out with a 100k plus performer it too will not sell manyu units, i.e. the ZR1 and even the less expensive ZO6. The novelty is over, those high end buyers only want Euro sports cars sadly.
Anyone who is happy to see the Viper go away is not a real car guy, just a blow hard with an axe to grind!
Well said.
