When you click on links to various merchants on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network.
I track my Z51. It's not rocket science fellas. YES you need a heavier weight of oil. Running your car at WOT for 20-30 minutes at a time-especially in warmer climates puts the car under severe stress. YES you need an alignment. Anyone that took a C6Z06 or in my case-Grand Sport without a track alignment wore their tires out really quick. YES you need higher DOT rated brake fluid. When you haul 3400 lbs from 150 to 60 MPH..you'd better have something that can withstand the temp.
Now you want to drive on the street ? On a track alignment ? You wear your $2000 set of tires out. Just running down to the store and back with 50W oil ? Not a problem as long as you let the car warm to temp before even thinking about moving.
Any manufacture can put out a vehicle that will perform well on the track AND street. It's when you push the issue and decide to drive 7 to 10/10s of the cars abilities that really shows what those extra steps mean.
BTW- The cooling ring thing is ridiculous. I cut my loses and bought DBA's. Helpful tip-get S/S brake lines. Well worth the cost and effort.
I do several HPDE events a year. However, I only do 2 or 3 in the C7.
If you are only doing 1 or 2 events, I would not do a thing.
Before the first event, I have the dealer change out all the fluids and do the track alignment. I leave the higher temp fluids in, IMO there is no reason to change it out. After the event, I have the dealer set the alignment back to normal. I do the oil changes before and after the event using what is prescribed. I never have the cooling rings installed.
So for the dealer to do a safety inspection and change the fluids, it cost me about $400. Wheel alignment each time is $100. So for the race season, I spend $400 plus $200 for each event. Brakes would be another expense, except I do those myself. Pretty cheap I think.
And I think you guys are nuts. What is listed on the Track Preparation guide is common sense to most people that understand cars and what is required for a track day. If you PAY someone to prep your car, Yes it's going to cost you. Man up and do some work yourself.
MOST of us have been doing the things listed for the C7 track prep for YEARS. Changing camber, oil and brake fluid.
I still stand behind my statement about the front rotors and cooling rings. Absolutely stupid.
A novice doing one or two Driver Ed events a year is not going to stress the car that much... they do not have the experience to drive at near-race speeds, and the instructor should not let them.
Most Instructor/Racer level track guys have a dedicated/trailered track car with full race safety equipment and suspension mods, etc, so this discussion is moot.
IMHO nobody in their right mind should be driving a stock C7 at anything over 8/10ths without full safety equipment, but GM has to do a lawyerly CYA for the worst-case scenario.. kudos for them for even pretending to condone track use of the car...
As stated above, racing fluid and and oil change are minimum for putting any car on the track, and tire wear is a given... goes with the turf.
And I think you guys are nuts. What is listed on the Track Preparation guide is common sense to most people that understand cars and what is required for a track day. If you PAY someone to prep your car, Yes it's going to cost you. Man up and do some work yourself.
MOST of us have been doing the things listed for the C7 track prep for YEARS. Changing camber, oil and brake fluid.
Depends on how hard you drive, as you advance: improve the brakes/fluid within the first 2-3 sessions, oil when driving hard enough to get engine temps get into the 280's and alignment if tire wear becomes an issue.
Last edited by StKnoWhere; 04-14-2015 at 06:57 PM.
Want to do track time and you can't change fluids? I don't know but I think I'd learn or stick to Sunday drives. Look at all the high dollar rubber you won't be bringing home.
Thank you for all the contributions to-date, specially the corrections on the Mustang Perf Pack oils.
But for us to have a more productive discussion we need to clear up a few things.
1 - There is a lot of references to "racing". We are not talking about racing. We are talking about non-competitive, non-timed, high performance drivers education (HPDE). That is learning to drive a car on a track with close direct or indirect supervision of an instructor.
2 - Integral to HPDE is driving within the driver's and car's limits. If tires, brakes, engine, transmission get too hot, a cool down lap is inserted. There is no downside to that - it is non-timed, non-competitive. Cool down laps are routinely used to keep the equipment within acceptable operating parameters. Virtually any modern car, can be safely driven within those parameters on track, with no adverse effect.
I thought the above was obvious for the discussion, but many here kept on mentioning "racing" and supernatural levels of stress to the car. None of that needs or should be part of HPDE.
3 - I have absolutely no problems with GM's recommended (before track) procedures. They are all fine. Proper alignment, better brake fluid, insert a cooling ring, even change the oil. All sensible or at least OK.
I thought I made that obvious.
The issue is their insistence (under threat to the warranty) to undo all those things immediately after the track event.
What is wrong with keeping DOT 4 brake fluid in the the car? What is the negative impact of it?
Why have a cooling rings that can't be left on?
Why not allow the track alignment and simply note that abnormal tire wear can be caused by leaving it on?
And why not recommend an oil that can be driven on street or track?
That is why most people who track their cars do. Track alignment, better brake fluid, good oil, cooling aids all season long.
I hope that clarifies the issue. The issue is the "change it all back immediately after the track event, or risk warranty denial".
I want to be constructive. I want GM to clarify that changing it back between track events is recommended, but not mandatory to preserve the warranty. That is all.
Here, I'll craft the clarification for GM, so all they need to do is add to their track preparation guide.
"For drivers who will participate in multiple track events, it is acceptable but not recommended, to keep the track preparation in accordance with this guide between events, while driving the vehicle on the street, so long as the car is not operated in temperatures below 32F (0C). Doing so may cause accelerated tire wear and cooling ring rusting, which are not covered under warranty."
I track my Z51. It's not rocket science fellas. YES you need a heavier weight of oil. Running your car at WOT for 20-30 minutes at a time-especially in warmer climates puts the car under severe stress. YES you need an alignment. Anyone that took a C6Z06 or in my case-Grand Sport without a track alignment wore their tires out really quick. YES you need higher DOT rated brake fluid. When you haul 3400 lbs from 150 to 60 MPH..you'd better have something that can withstand the temp.
Now you want to drive on the street ? On a track alignment ? You wear your $2000 set of tires out. Just running down to the store and back with 50W oil ? Not a problem as long as you let the car warm to temp before even thinking about moving.
Any manufacture can put out a vehicle that will perform well on the track AND street. It's when you push the issue and decide to drive 7 to 10/10s of the cars abilities that really shows what those extra steps mean.
BTW- The cooling ring thing is ridiculous. I cut my loses and bought DBA's. Helpful tip-get S/S brake lines. Well worth the cost and effort.
Great post. What you outlined here makes total sense.
Thank you for all the contributions to-date, specially the corrections on the Mustang Perf Pack oils.
But for us to have a more productive discussion we need to clear up a few things.
1 - There is a lot of references to "racing". We are not talking about racing. We are talking about non-competitive, non-timed, high performance drivers education (HPDE). That is learning to drive a car on a track with close direct or indirect supervision of an instructor.
2 - Integral to HPDE is driving within the driver's and car's limits. If tires, brakes, engine, transmission get too hot, a cool down lap is inserted. There is no downside to that - it is non-timed, non-competitive. Cool down laps are routinely used to keep the equipment within acceptable operating parameters. Virtually any modern car, can be safely driven within those parameters on track, with no adverse effect.
I thought the above was obvious for the discussion, but many here kept on mentioning "racing" and supernatural levels of stress to the car. None of that needs or should be part of HPDE.
3 - I have absolutely no problems with GM's recommended (before track) procedures. They are all fine. Proper alignment, better brake fluid, insert a cooling ring, even change the oil. All sensible or at least OK.
I thought I made that obvious.
The issue is their insistence (under threat to the warranty) to undo all those things immediately after the track event.
What is wrong with keeping DOT 4 brake fluid in the the car? What is the negative impact of it?
Why have a cooling rings that can't be left on?
Why not allow the track alignment and simply note that abnormal tire wear can be caused by leaving it on?
And why not recommend an oil that can be driven on street or track?
That is why most people who track their cars do. Track alignment, better brake fluid, good oil, cooling aids all season long.
I hope that clarifies the issue. The issue is the "change it all back immediately after the track event, or risk warranty denial".
I want to be constructive. I want GM to clarify that changing it back between track events is recommended, but not mandatory to preserve the warranty. That is all.
Here, I'll craft the clarification for GM, so all they need to do is add to their track preparation guide.
"For drivers who will participate in multiple track events, it is acceptable but not recommended, to keep the track preparation in accordance with this guide between events, while driving the vehicle on the street, so long as the car is not operated in temperatures below 32F (0C). Doing so may cause accelerated tire wear and cooling ring rusting, which are not covered under warranty."
If you truly think that the dealer is going to pull a sample of your brake fluid and send it off for analysis, you've been watching too much CSI. That disclaimer is pretty good tho. I'd buy that.
Thank you for all the contributions to-date, specially the corrections on the Mustang Perf Pack oils.
But for us to have a more productive discussion we need to clear up a few things.
1 - There is a lot of references to "racing". We are not talking about racing. We are talking about non-competitive, non-timed, high performance drivers education (HPDE). That is learning to drive a car on a track with close direct or indirect supervision of an instructor.
2 - Integral to HPDE is driving within the driver's and car's limits. If tires, brakes, engine, transmission get too hot, a cool down lap is inserted. There is no downside to that - it is non-timed, non-competitive. Cool down laps are routinely used to keep the equipment within acceptable operating parameters. Virtually any modern car, can be safely driven within those parameters on track, with no adverse effect.
I thought the above was obvious for the discussion, but many here kept on mentioning "racing" and supernatural levels of stress to the car. None of that needs or should be part of HPDE.
3 - I have absolutely no problems with GM's recommended (before track) procedures. They are all fine. Proper alignment, better brake fluid, insert a cooling ring, even change the oil. All sensible or at least OK.
I thought I made that obvious.
The issue is their insistence (under threat to the warranty) to undo all those things immediately after the track event.
What is wrong with keeping DOT 4 brake fluid in the the car? What is the negative impact of it?
Why have a cooling rings that can't be left on?
Why not allow the track alignment and simply note that abnormal tire wear can be caused by leaving it on?
And why not recommend an oil that can be driven on street or track?
That is why most people who track their cars do. Track alignment, better brake fluid, good oil, cooling aids all season long.
I hope that clarifies the issue. The issue is the "change it all back immediately after the track event, or risk warranty denial".
I want to be constructive. I want GM to clarify that changing it back between track events is recommended, but not mandatory to preserve the warranty. That is all.
Here, I'll craft the clarification for GM, so all they need to do is add to their track preparation guide.
"For drivers who will participate in multiple track events, it is acceptable but not recommended, to keep the track preparation in accordance with this guide between events, while driving the vehicle on the street, so long as the car is not operated in temperatures below 32F (0C). Doing so may cause accelerated tire wear and cooling ring rusting, which are not covered under warranty."
I am not trying to unfairly criticize you, but in your first post you state:
"... I am a NASA HPDE Instructor and occasional racer (just to keep skills up), and have driven and instructed on a variety of street cars on road circuits.
I'm shocked at what GM is expecting Stingray Z51 owners to do to drive on a track..."
It's taken until the above post #48 to clarify that what you are really talking about is a mild, or milder use of the car on a track with cooldowns whenever the car (or driver) get too hot. Still, most of the "training schools" do approach the use of their own cars by students (which HPDE drivers are) as being subject to racing-type maintenance and specs for oil, brakes, alignment, etc. and don't go off the track for street use with those on them. Are all HPDE courses alike?
I think if you read thru the numerous threads on C7 Gen, you will see that many owners are concerned with items on their car which either are malfunctioning or not functioning to their satisfaction (cracking tires, prematurely wearing tires, squeaking brakes, balky/loose shifter, etc.). It seems that GM is attempting to highlight "good practices" to follow WHEN you take a car to the track so that there will be no after effects. Especially because no one knows just how far a car will be stretched before it is "cooled down," and there are no equal standards applied to every race track, every "racing event," every HPDE event, etc. In other words, take care of your car and you won't have bad consequences. Seems to me that is part of HPDE---taking care of your equipment AND the driver's education.
And I think you guys are nuts. What is listed on the Track Preparation guide is common sense to most people that understand cars and what is required for a track day. If you PAY someone to prep your car, Yes it's going to cost you. Man up and do some work yourself.
MOST of us have been doing the things listed for the C7 track prep for YEARS. Changing camber, oil and brake fluid.
I still stand behind my statement about the front rotors and cooling rings. Absolutely stupid.
It's taken until the above post #48 to clarify that what you are really talking about is a mild, or milder use of the car on a track with cooldowns whenever the car (or driver) get too hot.
Because I thought this was obvious. Until everyone starts talking about "racing". Every car, including race cars, has their thermal limits, and needs to be managed as such.
HPDE is not racing, and the driver can and should keep everything in the "green" temperature wise. There is to prize awarded at HPDE for overheating your car or thrashing your tires. That is a failure of instruction.
You don't seem to get it, but the Corvette is being sold in the world market now. The Nurburgring is simply a toll road, where you cruise to, pay the toll, drive at whatever pace you feel comfortable and cruise back. If you choose the right time of day, you can ran flat out on the autobahn for a full tank of gas - about 15 minutes for most cars.
All that on "public roads".
There is nothing on HPDE that needs to be more stressful than running flat out on the Autobhan or Nurburgring. Both of which are covered by insurance and warranty for cars registered in Germany.
You simply can't claim to be a world-class sports car, have a Z51 "track package" and then force your customers to have a completely unworkable set of before/after steps.
Folks if you read any car manual the "Lawyer Language" is everywhere because that is the society we live in and you can't fix stupid. I sure every gas generator has a do not use inside a house in big letters but that does not work either.
As far as fluid change........ For oil I go to Wal Mart pay $50 for 10 qts of the racing stuff. Change out the oil....keep the old........come home replace the racing with the drained. $50!!!
I change out to DOT 4 and replace each spring $10.
I'm not worried about tire wear........pot holes daily driving do more harm then the track.
BUT I do not run 100% no one should. Run in your comfort zone and we are only talking HPDEs........not real racing. I doubt any of you are taking a C7 and doing serious rubbing out there.
The "angels on a pin" hypotheticals in this post explain exactly why all this "lawyerly" CYA crap is in the owner's manual.
If I were a GM exec, I'd tell the Corvette guys to jam the track stuff entirely, but they can't.
Porsche builds GTS/GT3/GTxRS versions of their cars that are track cars, are promoted as track cars, are tested in all the relevant mags as track cars, and then tells their buyer that, for their $130K, if they use it on the track they can shove it!!!
They're all big boys, and wink, wink, all know the deal.
GM doesn't have the cred, and needs to position the Corvette as competitive in this arena, and therefore has to establish a legal framework for use of their C7 in competition with Porsche, so all the dancing.
I didn't read the entire thread (after like 6 posts I needed to comment).
1. Use DOT 5.1 in both your clutch and brake reservoirs. DOT 5.1 is superior in all manners to DOT 4 and DOT 3. This helps with heat.
2. Taking off the cooling rings isn't a big deal, and yes you can drive to the track with them on (they won't make it thru a winter, I'm sure for a casually driven car they will not corrode, but GM has to say that to CTOA - Cover Their Own ***). If you aren't changing the oil, they probably aren't needed as brake heat is the least of your concerns.
3. Suspension settings are entirely up to you, track ones will optimize the car, but if you don't mind going a few tenths slower then leave them as is. I'd leave mine as is, no use in changing them.
4. Oil, this one is an easy one. After 5-10 sessions (not track days but track sessions), your Oil burns up anyway (due to extreme temps it basically breaks down and becomes near useless). So you can run the regular oil and suffer some power losses due to engine derating (after the 3rd or 4th same day session) because they are trying to protect the engine from heat. I ran regular Oil in my Focus ST last year and basically it went from new to finished in 8 sessions (2 track days) and about 2000 miles of driving (in between the days). BTW running heavier oil on the street isn't entirely bad, as long as you don't care about cold weather performance (standard oil is chosen due to the usage in all temps). If you plan on only running in the summer the 50W should be fine.
Personally I'd leave the thing stock, maybe use the rings, and just insert cool down laps and change my oil and other fluids as needed.
"I have a feeling that, given that I will track the car at least a dozen times per year, over time the GT4 will prove less costly to run. Brakes and tires should last a lot longer due to lower weight and lower end of straight speed, while being about as fast on short momentum tracks (Lime Rock) and nearly as fast on some of the longer ones. And that engine (in that state of tune - 385HP-ish) is bullet proof - if you can get drone refueling it will run all day"
.
Last edited by StKnoWhere; 04-15-2015 at 10:02 PM.
"I have a feeling that, given that I will track the car at least a dozen times per year, over time the GT4 will prove less costly to run. Brakes and tires should last a lot longer due to lower weight and lower end of straight speed, while being about as fast on short momentum tracks (Lime Rock) and nearly as fast on some of the longer ones. And that engine (in that state of tune - 385HP-ish) is bullet proof - if you can get drone refueling it will run all day"
.
What is so odd about that? The Cayman GT4 was/is the car that I wanted. I put an order for it at the Porsche dealer (first time ever I ordered a car), the day the configurator was on line. Unfortunately, I was #5 on the wait list, and the dealer told me their allocation was ONE GT4.
So, while I wait to get my hands on a CPO GT4, I will be running the Z51, which so far has been a great car.
We shall see how well it works in a 10 track days or so per year environment, in addition to night out and weekend cruise duty.
You should be less paranoid and dismissive of people, and be proud, if you are a Corvette fan, that a Z51 was cross-shoped with a Porsche GT car.
But attitudes and comments like yours, just show insecurity in your decisions, which get in the way in trying to improve how GM treats customers who want to track their cars.
Circling the wagons, insulting the messenger, etc always backfires.
The Porsche GT4 is a fantastic car.... and I am a Porsche guy, but for the $25K premium, I'll stick with the Z51.
I have lots of friends with GT3's and they really are marginal as street cars... and I expect the GT4 will be similar...
Whether it's more reliable is another issue... any car can fail under extreme use... price out the cost of a GT3 crate motor lately?
There really is no such thing as a "Dual Use" street/track car, regardless of the MFG.
Not to derail the thread, but Porsche GT cars are likely of of the least expensive cars to own.
The price tag of sports car (particularly in an environment where cost of money is near zero) is irrelevant. What matters is the difference between what you buy it for and what you sell it for at the end of the ownership period (in my case 2-3 years).
Many people who bought Porsche GT cars (GT3s, GT2-RS, etc) have sold them for more than what they paid for. I expect the GT4 will be sold in the CPO market for higher than MSRP even used.
Buy a GT4 for $95K, sell it after a year for $100K. Buy a Z51 for $70K sell it after a year for $50K. Which car is more expensive to own?
Anyway, the Stingray Z51 is an awesome car, I am very happy with my purchase, looking forward to driving it on track and on the street, and have no regrets in not getting the GT4. At sometime in the future I hope to enjoy a Porsche GT car. Variety is good. We are lucky to live in an era where street cars like the GT4, GT3, Z06, Z51, etc are laying Nurburgring lap times that are approaching what Nikki Lauda laid in Formula 1 in the late 70s.
We have incredible machines, that can go from street to track with equal competence. It is beyond me why some people here feel so defensive (to the point of going on a research trip of my previous unrelated posts), about suggestions on how GM can make our cars even more enjoyable.
To GM:
Please come up with an optional performance rotor that does not require silly rings to track.
Please come up with an oil recommendation (e.g. 0W40 or 5W50) that is good for street or track.
Please clarify that high-quality DOT4 fluid can be used on street and track
Please remove the restriction that no passenger seat occupant (e.g. instructor/driving coach) can be in the car during track driving.
You would make an awesome car even more enjoyable and worry free.
04-14-2015, 11:36 AM
Depends on how hard you drive, as you advance: improve the brakes/fluid within the first 2-3 sessions, oil when driving hard enough to get engine temps get into the 280's and alignment if tire wear becomes an issue.
