Surge of C7 Corvettes at CarMax
05-29-2016, 10:15 AM
#21
Drifting
Youre completely missing what the point of the GS is. The GS basically takes what makes the Z06 great and what makes the Stringray great and fuses it together into a perfect C7. You take the Z06 Aero/widebody/bigger wheels etc and you take the NA Stingray powerplant and throw them in a blender and you have a MUCH MUCH more usable track car. Not only will the car be able to handle what you throw at it at the track , Itll also have a much more usable power band so youre able to push the car to its limits far more than you could with a Z06.
If you mod the GS and get an extra 50 RWHP out of it, Youre going to be golden. Remember, More power doesnt always make it a better car. Some of the most deadly track weapons out there are also some of the more underpowered cars because like i said, It all comes down to USABLE power being used to its full potential.
If you mod the GS and get an extra 50 RWHP out of it, Youre going to be golden. Remember, More power doesnt always make it a better car. Some of the most deadly track weapons out there are also some of the more underpowered cars because like i said, It all comes down to USABLE power being used to its full potential.
05-29-2016, 10:28 AM
#22
Bottom line to most buyers of any Corvette C7 will be pricing and individual budgets.
Why pay more when you can still get a beautiful Corvette C7, same style and save thousands of dollars.
Many people who bought the Z51 and Z06 don't track the cars anyway.
Why pay more when you can still get a beautiful Corvette C7, same style and save thousands of dollars.
Many people who bought the Z51 and Z06 don't track the cars anyway.
05-29-2016, 05:44 PM
#23
Drifting
No doubt the Chevy folks are smarter than I am............however, I would've kept the program the same as it was without the GS.
I still think there will be a huge market for the Stingray for those who want to get into a base model Vette. Perhaps guys from the muscle car ranks who want a Vette. A 1LT Vette is still one hell of a car and is great bang for the buck.
I would keep the Z51 package and for those who want to look like the Z06, perhaps a package that includes some of the options of the GS, kind of like the ZF package compared to the Z51 on a base Vette.
Then again, there's the big dog Z06 which we leave alone. If there is a ZR1 in the future, there better include at least a 100 hp bump from the Z06.
05-29-2016, 10:38 PM
#24
Race Director
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St. Jude Donor '16-'17,'22,'24
The base C7 is going to take a brutal hit once the GS hits the streets. The GS is almost a too good to be true bargain for what you get. Between new buyers picking the GS over the base and the base owners dumping their cars for the GS. The Stingray market is going to be super over saturated.
The GS comes at a good time as the three year leases will be reaching their end beginning in a few months. The timing of the GS gives those who are turning in a 2014 Vette something to think about for their next lease.
05-29-2016, 11:50 PM
#25
What does make the Z06 great?
Youre completely missing what the point of the GS is. The GS basically takes what makes the Z06 great and what makes the Stringray great and fuses it together into a perfect C7. You take the Z06 Aero/widebody/bigger wheels etc and you take the NA Stingray powerplant and throw them in a blender and you have a MUCH MUCH more usable track car. Not only will the car be able to handle what you throw at it at the track , Itll also have a much more usable power band so youre able to push the car to its limits far more than you could with a Z06.
If you mod the GS and get an extra 50 RWHP out of it, Youre going to be golden. Remember, More power doesnt always make it a better car. Some of the most deadly track weapons out there are also some of the more underpowered cars because like i said, It all comes down to USABLE power being used to its full potential.
If you mod the GS and get an extra 50 RWHP out of it, Youre going to be golden. Remember, More power doesnt always make it a better car. Some of the most deadly track weapons out there are also some of the more underpowered cars because like i said, It all comes down to USABLE power being used to its full potential.
So, this GS, which seems to me to be a factory appearance "group" package more than a separate model. It combines the look of the Z06 but not the power. So, what is that? Not wishing to be argumentative but the GS looks like a Z06 poser. What am I missing? The Stingray is a very sharp car with clean sharp lines...saw a black one today and was thoroughly impressed.
All these aero effect body panels on the GS.....fine on the Z06 because of all the extra power to overcome the drag and make the downforce usable. What am I missing?
I'm just learning remember? Just looking at the facts the GS looks like a Z06 without the power. That is a car built for show more than go. To be real the GS should include more power... at least 50-75 hp over the Stingray but not up to the Z06.
I'm still wondering what I'm missing. There is the Stingray and then there is the Z06. The Stingray is very fast and the Z06 is brutally fast and the GS looks mean but is probably not as fast as the Stingray....how could it be?
05-30-2016, 12:42 AM
#26
The base C7 is going to take a brutal hit once the GS hits the streets. The GS is almost a too good to be true bargain for what you get. Between new buyers picking the GS over the base and the base owners dumping their cars for the GS. The Stingray market is going to be super over saturated.
In reality very few Stingray owners are going to trade up for a GS. No additional HP and let's face it, even without wide body, Stingray still a looker.
The following 2 users liked this post by RedC7AZ:
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05-30-2016, 12:59 AM
#27
Racer
For me, the Grand Sport is a dream come true. Order one, and have it drop shipped to Katech and have them upgrade the car to the street attack 427. THIS is what the C7 Z06 SHOULD have been all along. By offering the Grand Sport, GM has given me the ability to build a REAL Z06 with a NA 427 under the hood.
The following 2 users liked this post by JeffInDFW:
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05-30-2016, 01:04 AM
#28
Team Owner
I'm new here and shopping for a C7....hanging around and learning. So, I consider myself fairly unbiased since so much of this is new to me. What makes the Z06 great? Well, I'd have to say it's at least 80% about the supercharged engine. This seems to be a no brainer to me. What am I missing?
So, this GS, which seems to me to be a factory appearance "group" package more than a separate model. It combines the look of the Z06 but not the power. So, what is that? Not wishing to be argumentative but the GS looks like a Z06 poser. What am I missing? The Stingray is a very sharp car with clean sharp lines...saw a black one today and was thoroughly impressed.
All these aero effect body panels on the GS.....fine on the Z06 because of all the extra power to overcome the drag and make the downforce usable. What am I missing?
I'm just learning remember? Just looking at the facts the GS looks like a Z06 without the power. That is a car built for show more than go. To be real the GS should include more power... at least 50-75 hp over the Stingray but not up to the Z06.
I'm still wondering what I'm missing. There is the Stingray and then there is the Z06. The Stingray is very fast and the Z06 is brutally fast and the GS looks mean but is probably not as fast as the Stingray....how could it be?
So, this GS, which seems to me to be a factory appearance "group" package more than a separate model. It combines the look of the Z06 but not the power. So, what is that? Not wishing to be argumentative but the GS looks like a Z06 poser. What am I missing? The Stingray is a very sharp car with clean sharp lines...saw a black one today and was thoroughly impressed.
All these aero effect body panels on the GS.....fine on the Z06 because of all the extra power to overcome the drag and make the downforce usable. What am I missing?
I'm just learning remember? Just looking at the facts the GS looks like a Z06 without the power. That is a car built for show more than go. To be real the GS should include more power... at least 50-75 hp over the Stingray but not up to the Z06.
I'm still wondering what I'm missing. There is the Stingray and then there is the Z06. The Stingray is very fast and the Z06 is brutally fast and the GS looks mean but is probably not as fast as the Stingray....how could it be?
I think the z51 or base will be a slight bit faster than the GS.Costs power to turn the larger rubber and push more weight that is less aero.
The Z06 is in another league.
05-30-2016, 01:33 AM
#29
I'm new here and shopping for a C7....hanging around and learning. So, I consider myself fairly unbiased since so much of this is new to me. What makes the Z06 great? Well, I'd have to say it's at least 80% about the supercharged engine. This seems to be a no brainer to me. What am I missing?
So, this GS, which seems to me to be a factory appearance "group" package more than a separate model. It combines the look of the Z06 but not the power. So, what is that? Not wishing to be argumentative but the GS looks like a Z06 poser. What am I missing? The Stingray is a very sharp car with clean sharp lines...saw a black one today and was thoroughly impressed.
All these aero effect body panels on the GS.....fine on the Z06 because of all the extra power to overcome the drag and make the downforce usable. What am I missing?
I'm just learning remember? Just looking at the facts the GS looks like a Z06 without the power. That is a car built for show more than go. To be real the GS should include more power... at least 50-75 hp over the Stingray but not up to the Z06.
I'm still wondering what I'm missing. There is the Stingray and then there is the Z06. The Stingray is very fast and the Z06 is brutally fast and the GS looks mean but is probably not as fast as the Stingray....how could it be?
So, this GS, which seems to me to be a factory appearance "group" package more than a separate model. It combines the look of the Z06 but not the power. So, what is that? Not wishing to be argumentative but the GS looks like a Z06 poser. What am I missing? The Stingray is a very sharp car with clean sharp lines...saw a black one today and was thoroughly impressed.
All these aero effect body panels on the GS.....fine on the Z06 because of all the extra power to overcome the drag and make the downforce usable. What am I missing?
I'm just learning remember? Just looking at the facts the GS looks like a Z06 without the power. That is a car built for show more than go. To be real the GS should include more power... at least 50-75 hp over the Stingray but not up to the Z06.
I'm still wondering what I'm missing. There is the Stingray and then there is the Z06. The Stingray is very fast and the Z06 is brutally fast and the GS looks mean but is probably not as fast as the Stingray....how could it be?
05-30-2016, 02:12 AM
#30
Drifting
For me, the Grand Sport is a dream come true. Order one, and have it drop shipped to Katech and have them upgrade the car to the street attack 427. THIS is what the C7 Z06 SHOULD have been all along. By offering the Grand Sport, GM has given me the ability to build a REAL Z06 with a NA 427 under the hood.
I guess by the time you buy the GS, have it shipped to Katech, pay for the parts at Katech, pay for the labor at Katech, and pay for the return shipping, there is no doubt in my mind that your modded C7 GS will have cost more than my C7 Z06. You also trashed your drive train warranty, and chances are excellent that you won't get your money back if you decide to sell. At the end of the day, it's just a modded GS, and you will have to find a special buyer in order to get your money back if you sell it.
I do wish you well with your choice of what to do with your car, however your patronizing attitude like a C7 Z06 isn't the real thing, is IMHO, out of line.
Last edited by OLD_GOAT; 05-30-2016 at 02:17 AM.
05-30-2016, 03:56 AM
#31
Tech Contributor
I'm happy with my C7 Z06 as it was built, plus I'm happy with the factory warranty. I also have a REAL C7 Z06 and I'll be keeping my REAL WARRANTY, unlike you.
I guess by the time you buy the GS, have it shipped to Katech, pay for the parts at Katech, pay for the labor at Katech, and pay for the return shipping, there is no doubt in my mind that your modded C7 GS will have cost more than my C7 Z06. You also trashed your drive train warranty, and chances are excellent that you won't get your money back if you decide to sell. At the end of the day, it's just a modded GS, and you will have to find a special buyer in order to get your money back if you sell it.
I do wish you well with your choice of what to do with your car, however your patronizing attitude like a C7 Z06 isn't the real thing, is IMHO, out of line.
I guess by the time you buy the GS, have it shipped to Katech, pay for the parts at Katech, pay for the labor at Katech, and pay for the return shipping, there is no doubt in my mind that your modded C7 GS will have cost more than my C7 Z06. You also trashed your drive train warranty, and chances are excellent that you won't get your money back if you decide to sell. At the end of the day, it's just a modded GS, and you will have to find a special buyer in order to get your money back if you sell it.
I do wish you well with your choice of what to do with your car, however your patronizing attitude like a C7 Z06 isn't the real thing, is IMHO, out of line.
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06-02-2016, 03:41 AM
#32
Racer
Old Goat picked his screen name well.
Mr. Goat, you can calm down as I will stand on any mountain top and yell loudly that the car that GM built and named Z06 starting in 2015 is an absolute bad *** monster of a car. I mean that. BAD ***. I love and adore it. BUT, GM gave it the wrong name.
You see, Z06 had historically been a stripped down track day special. Like the Z/28 Camaro, or GT350, or Porsche GT3.
Porsche builds a turbo 911 as the top of the line, loaded out model. They name it "Turbo 911". Porsche knows better than to build a all wheel drive twin turbo convertible, and give it the name "GT3". GM screwed the pooch when it named the current car "Z06" after giving it a supercharger, and a load of grand touring features which add weight. I LOVE the car, but it should have been named "ZR1" because that is the slot this car filled in the line up.
I am a track day guy. I absolutely do NOT want a supercharger with its added weight up high, and added heat. There is a reason why all the track day cars are naturally aspirated. I am going to build the NA track day car that GM SHOULD have built and called Z06, and your car SHOULD have been named ZR1.
I could give a **** about warranty. I would never allow a GM dealership "mechanic" to touch anything I own.
IMO, a Grand Sport with an actual Katech 427 street attack package is going to hold its value pretty damn well, and will be coveted by hard core car guys. Katech was the engine supplier for the GM factory Corvette racing team for a decade, and has multiple 24 Hours of LeMans 1st place victories with Katech engines. They were 7 liter 427s, by the way. With no superchargers.
Just sayin'........
http://katechengines.com/motor-sport...ette-c6-r-gt1/
Mr. Goat, you can calm down as I will stand on any mountain top and yell loudly that the car that GM built and named Z06 starting in 2015 is an absolute bad *** monster of a car. I mean that. BAD ***. I love and adore it. BUT, GM gave it the wrong name.
You see, Z06 had historically been a stripped down track day special. Like the Z/28 Camaro, or GT350, or Porsche GT3.
Porsche builds a turbo 911 as the top of the line, loaded out model. They name it "Turbo 911". Porsche knows better than to build a all wheel drive twin turbo convertible, and give it the name "GT3". GM screwed the pooch when it named the current car "Z06" after giving it a supercharger, and a load of grand touring features which add weight. I LOVE the car, but it should have been named "ZR1" because that is the slot this car filled in the line up.
I am a track day guy. I absolutely do NOT want a supercharger with its added weight up high, and added heat. There is a reason why all the track day cars are naturally aspirated. I am going to build the NA track day car that GM SHOULD have built and called Z06, and your car SHOULD have been named ZR1.
I could give a **** about warranty. I would never allow a GM dealership "mechanic" to touch anything I own.
IMO, a Grand Sport with an actual Katech 427 street attack package is going to hold its value pretty damn well, and will be coveted by hard core car guys. Katech was the engine supplier for the GM factory Corvette racing team for a decade, and has multiple 24 Hours of LeMans 1st place victories with Katech engines. They were 7 liter 427s, by the way. With no superchargers.
Just sayin'........
http://katechengines.com/motor-sport...ette-c6-r-gt1/
Last edited by JeffInDFW; 06-02-2016 at 03:43 AM.
06-02-2016, 12:26 PM
#33
yes
I agree with above. I don't want dealer guys working on my ZO6. Not even for oil changes. Katech is super in all ways. the 427 engine they have now is great. Thinking of keeping the new Z and getting a C6Z again and doing the High rev 427 thing. 
06-07-2016, 06:26 PM
#34
Burning Brakes
Carmax has a certain mentality.
If they were forced to purchase one of two identically optioned cars for the exact same price:
Car #1 had a clean Carfax but has poorly done bondo body work on it and it is obvious it has been in at least one accident and may not be operating to original manufacturers specifications.
Car #2 had an accident on the Carfax but the vehicle is mechanically flawless and the repair was done with all new parts and an inspection by an expert finds no flaws or evidence of any accident.
They choose Car #1 all day long as it has more resale value to them. The reporting is more important to them than physical reality.
If they were forced to purchase one of two identically optioned cars for the exact same price:
Car #1 had a clean Carfax but has poorly done bondo body work on it and it is obvious it has been in at least one accident and may not be operating to original manufacturers specifications.
Car #2 had an accident on the Carfax but the vehicle is mechanically flawless and the repair was done with all new parts and an inspection by an expert finds no flaws or evidence of any accident.
They choose Car #1 all day long as it has more resale value to them. The reporting is more important to them than physical reality.
The following users liked this post:
OLD_GOAT (06-07-2016)
06-08-2016, 02:06 AM
#35
I'm new here and shopping for a C7....hanging around and learning. So, I consider myself fairly unbiased since so much of this is new to me. What makes the Z06 great? Well, I'd have to say it's at least 80% about the supercharged engine. This seems to be a no brainer to me. What am I missing?
So, this GS, which seems to me to be a factory appearance "group" package more than a separate model. It combines the look of the Z06 but not the power. So, what is that? Not wishing to be argumentative but the GS looks like a Z06 poser. What am I missing? The Stingray is a very sharp car with clean sharp lines...saw a black one today and was thoroughly impressed.
All these aero effect body panels on the GS.....fine on the Z06 because of all the extra power to overcome the drag and make the downforce usable. What am I missing?
I'm just learning remember? Just looking at the facts the GS looks like a Z06 without the power. That is a car built for show more than go. To be real the GS should include more power... at least 50-75 hp over the Stingray but not up to the Z06.
I'm still wondering what I'm missing. There is the Stingray and then there is the Z06. The Stingray is very fast and the Z06 is brutally fast and the GS looks mean but is probably not as fast as the Stingray....how could it be?
So, this GS, which seems to me to be a factory appearance "group" package more than a separate model. It combines the look of the Z06 but not the power. So, what is that? Not wishing to be argumentative but the GS looks like a Z06 poser. What am I missing? The Stingray is a very sharp car with clean sharp lines...saw a black one today and was thoroughly impressed.
All these aero effect body panels on the GS.....fine on the Z06 because of all the extra power to overcome the drag and make the downforce usable. What am I missing?
I'm just learning remember? Just looking at the facts the GS looks like a Z06 without the power. That is a car built for show more than go. To be real the GS should include more power... at least 50-75 hp over the Stingray but not up to the Z06.
I'm still wondering what I'm missing. There is the Stingray and then there is the Z06. The Stingray is very fast and the Z06 is brutally fast and the GS looks mean but is probably not as fast as the Stingray....how could it be?
Last edited by senah; 06-08-2016 at 11:43 AM.
06-08-2016, 02:19 AM
#36
Old Goat picked his screen name well.
Mr. Goat, you can calm down as I will stand on any mountain top and yell loudly that the car that GM built and named Z06 starting in 2015 is an absolute bad *** monster of a car. I mean that. BAD ***. I love and adore it. BUT, GM gave it the wrong name.
You see, Z06 had historically been a stripped down track day special. Like the Z/28 Camaro, or GT350, or Porsche GT3.
Porsche builds a turbo 911 as the top of the line, loaded out model. They name it "Turbo 911". Porsche knows better than to build a all wheel drive twin turbo convertible, and give it the name "GT3". GM screwed the pooch when it named the current car "Z06" after giving it a supercharger, and a load of grand touring features which add weight. I LOVE the car, but it should have been named "ZR1" because that is the slot this car filled in the line up.
I am a track day guy. I absolutely do NOT want a supercharger with its added weight up high, and added heat. There is a reason why all the track day cars are naturally aspirated. I am going to build the NA track day car that GM SHOULD have built and called Z06, and your car SHOULD have been named ZR1.
I could give a **** about warranty. I would never allow a GM dealership "mechanic" to touch anything I own.
IMO, a Grand Sport with an actual Katech 427 street attack package is going to hold its value pretty damn well, and will be coveted by hard core car guys. Katech was the engine supplier for the GM factory Corvette racing team for a decade, and has multiple 24 Hours of LeMans 1st place victories with Katech engines. They were 7 liter 427s, by the way. With no superchargers.
Just sayin'........
http://katechengines.com/motor-sport...ette-c6-r-gt1/
Mr. Goat, you can calm down as I will stand on any mountain top and yell loudly that the car that GM built and named Z06 starting in 2015 is an absolute bad *** monster of a car. I mean that. BAD ***. I love and adore it. BUT, GM gave it the wrong name.
You see, Z06 had historically been a stripped down track day special. Like the Z/28 Camaro, or GT350, or Porsche GT3.
Porsche builds a turbo 911 as the top of the line, loaded out model. They name it "Turbo 911". Porsche knows better than to build a all wheel drive twin turbo convertible, and give it the name "GT3". GM screwed the pooch when it named the current car "Z06" after giving it a supercharger, and a load of grand touring features which add weight. I LOVE the car, but it should have been named "ZR1" because that is the slot this car filled in the line up.
I am a track day guy. I absolutely do NOT want a supercharger with its added weight up high, and added heat. There is a reason why all the track day cars are naturally aspirated. I am going to build the NA track day car that GM SHOULD have built and called Z06, and your car SHOULD have been named ZR1.
I could give a **** about warranty. I would never allow a GM dealership "mechanic" to touch anything I own.
IMO, a Grand Sport with an actual Katech 427 street attack package is going to hold its value pretty damn well, and will be coveted by hard core car guys. Katech was the engine supplier for the GM factory Corvette racing team for a decade, and has multiple 24 Hours of LeMans 1st place victories with Katech engines. They were 7 liter 427s, by the way. With no superchargers.
Just sayin'........
http://katechengines.com/motor-sport...ette-c6-r-gt1/
06-08-2016, 02:55 AM
#37
Drifting
It appears that jeff went off because he didn't like the name Z06 for the C7 Z06. I've got no desire to debate over something stupid like that. Also I have no desire to debate with a person who sets off the word censor.
Last edited by OLD_GOAT; 06-08-2016 at 02:57 AM.
06-08-2016, 07:39 AM
#38
Drifting
Carmax has a certain mentality.
If they were forced to purchase one of two identically optioned cars for the exact same price:
Car #1 had a clean Carfax but has poorly done bondo body work on it and it is obvious it has been in at least one accident and may not be operating to original manufacturers specifications.
Car #2 had an accident on the Carfax but the vehicle is mechanically flawless and the repair was done with all new parts and an inspection by an expert finds no flaws or evidence of any accident.
They choose Car #1 all day long as it has more resale value to them. The reporting is more important to them than physical reality.
If they were forced to purchase one of two identically optioned cars for the exact same price:
Car #1 had a clean Carfax but has poorly done bondo body work on it and it is obvious it has been in at least one accident and may not be operating to original manufacturers specifications.
Car #2 had an accident on the Carfax but the vehicle is mechanically flawless and the repair was done with all new parts and an inspection by an expert finds no flaws or evidence of any accident.
They choose Car #1 all day long as it has more resale value to them. The reporting is more important to them than physical reality.
06-08-2016, 08:11 AM
#39
Race Director
I'm new here and shopping for a C7....hanging around and learning. So, I consider myself fairly unbiased since so much of this is new to me. What makes the Z06 great? Well, I'd have to say it's at least 80% about the supercharged engine. This seems to be a no brainer to me. What am I missing?
So, this GS, which seems to me to be a factory appearance "group" package more than a separate model. It combines the look of the Z06 but not the power. So, what is that? Not wishing to be argumentative but the GS looks like a Z06 poser. What am I missing? The Stingray is a very sharp car with clean sharp lines...saw a black one today and was thoroughly impressed.
All these aero effect body panels on the GS.....fine on the Z06 because of all the extra power to overcome the drag and make the downforce usable. What am I missing?
I'm just learning remember? Just looking at the facts the GS looks like a Z06 without the power. That is a car built for show more than go. To be real the GS should include more power... at least 50-75 hp over the Stingray but not up to the Z06.
I'm still wondering what I'm missing. There is the Stingray and then there is the Z06. The Stingray is very fast and the Z06 is brutally fast and the GS looks mean but is probably not as fast as the Stingray....how could it be?
So, this GS, which seems to me to be a factory appearance "group" package more than a separate model. It combines the look of the Z06 but not the power. So, what is that? Not wishing to be argumentative but the GS looks like a Z06 poser. What am I missing? The Stingray is a very sharp car with clean sharp lines...saw a black one today and was thoroughly impressed.
All these aero effect body panels on the GS.....fine on the Z06 because of all the extra power to overcome the drag and make the downforce usable. What am I missing?
I'm just learning remember? Just looking at the facts the GS looks like a Z06 without the power. That is a car built for show more than go. To be real the GS should include more power... at least 50-75 hp over the Stingray but not up to the Z06.
I'm still wondering what I'm missing. There is the Stingray and then there is the Z06. The Stingray is very fast and the Z06 is brutally fast and the GS looks mean but is probably not as fast as the Stingray....how could it be?
While I agree 500 hp plus would have made the car irresistible...the grand sport package offers better brakes and tires...
That's what the package offers to sports car enthusiasts..
I would never sell a z51 for a grand sport but buying new...no question I'd go grand sport....over z51...
Of course with z06 pricing....coming down if I were buying ....id go z06 1LZ
Jmo
06-08-2016, 08:33 AM
#40
Racer
I'm in that category....aesthetically, "wide" just doesn't appeal to me. One of the things about the C7 styling that got me excited was that it was (for me) the first model since the C2 that didn't seem to try to emphasize "wide". Classic sports cars in my mind like the 911, F12 Berlinetta, etc. don't scream "wide" in their styling, while muscle cars like 80's Firebirds did. So I'm fine with my narrow little base sports car, but I don't begrudge anyone their preference for something different.