The First Ever Photos of the Mid-Engine Corvette
08-24-2016, 09:42 PM
#482
Weight balance is one thing, but inertia is another. Even with perfect weight balance, if the mass is concentrated at each end vs. concentrating the mass in the center, that affects the rotational properties of the car. It has a significant influence on the way a car responds to inputs.
The ACR is basically a race car due it's massive down-force; it's aerodynamic features are extremely aggressive and limit top end speed. Now, is the average person on the street or a short track going to go faster in a midengine versus front/rear, not necessarily, but it's not just the speed, but the feel of the car, how stable and responsive it is. Those characteristics tend to be superior in a midengine configuration.
The ACR is basically a race car due it's massive down-force; it's aerodynamic features are extremely aggressive and limit top end speed. Now, is the average person on the street or a short track going to go faster in a midengine versus front/rear, not necessarily, but it's not just the speed, but the feel of the car, how stable and responsive it is. Those characteristics tend to be superior in a midengine configuration.
Last edited by jivor; 08-24-2016 at 09:43 PM.
08-24-2016, 10:41 PM
#483
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Originally Posted by jivor
Weight balance is one thing, but inertia is another. Even with perfect weight balance, if the mass is concentrated at each end vs. concentrating the mass in the center, that affects the rotational properties of the car. It has a significant influence on the way a car responds to inputs.
The ACR is basically a race car due it's massive down-force; it's aerodynamic features are extremely aggressive and limit top end speed. Now, is the average person on the street or a short track going to go faster in a midengine versus front/rear, not necessarily, but it's not just the speed, but the feel of the car, how stable and responsive it is. Those characteristics tend to be superior in a midengine configuration.
The ACR is basically a race car due it's massive down-force; it's aerodynamic features are extremely aggressive and limit top end speed. Now, is the average person on the street or a short track going to go faster in a midengine versus front/rear, not necessarily, but it's not just the speed, but the feel of the car, how stable and responsive it is. Those characteristics tend to be superior in a midengine configuration.
As long as the bulk of the weight is centrally located moment of inertia is close to ideal. MR isn't perfectly central either.
08-25-2016, 12:18 AM
#484
Burning Brakes
Either way, just enjoy the article or not. Mox nix to me, brother.
08-25-2016, 03:10 AM
#485
Advanced
Top Speed vs. Top Road Speed
Things start to get pretty grey when you are talking about "track performance" and "front engine / RWD".
Are we talking about production street cars? Because if we are, then currently, the Z06 and Viper ACR are the fastest production cars in the world on a road course / track. They are both front-engine/RWD layouts. Both have recorded faster lap times than any of the mid-engine supercars mentioned earlier. No supercar on the market is faster on actual race tracks.
Someone posted top speeds but that has nothing to do with engine location - it's all about gearing and engine design itself.
It's also somewhat misleading to use track performance as the metric by which to measure overall "handling" performance (that seems to be the argument being made). Tracks and streets are nothing alike.
I can reach speeds on a highway that I could never reach on any race track, first of all. Lots of long straights on I-5 means I can get my Vette up to 180mph on a pretty regular basis, if I'm willing to take the risk. You'll never see those kind of straights on a road course.
Most race tracks are designed with lots of turns back to back with a single or maybe two long straight sections. Civil/Highway engineers design freeways the total opposite - turns over the longest distance possible (smallest radius), and far apart as possible.
Some tracks are designed specifically to challenge suspension designs of open-wheel racers with inclines/declines and banks shortly before/after apex, etc. Civil/Highway engineers design public roadways to eliminate banks and minimize inclines/declines, especially around corners.
The ("handling limitation") analogy of Ford's use of a solid rear axle is faulty. The live rear axle on the Mustang had noticeable and measurable impact on the Mustang's handling, well before the car had reached other physical limitations (for example, traction). It was the primary limitation in the Mustang's track performance. The new Mustang showed significant measurable improvements once they adopted IRS.
Going to a mid-engine design, by itself, would not show a comparable improvement in the Corvette (to going IRS in the Ford). The main reason to go with a mid-engine design is to perfect weight to an optimal 50/50 balance front-to-rear. The Corvette is already so close to 50/50 that the difference here would be negligible. So removing the weight bias of the FE layout in the Vette isn't removing a significant limitation, it is at best a very minor tweak.
Are we talking about production street cars? Because if we are, then currently, the Z06 and Viper ACR are the fastest production cars in the world on a road course / track. They are both front-engine/RWD layouts. Both have recorded faster lap times than any of the mid-engine supercars mentioned earlier. No supercar on the market is faster on actual race tracks.
Someone posted top speeds but that has nothing to do with engine location - it's all about gearing and engine design itself.
It's also somewhat misleading to use track performance as the metric by which to measure overall "handling" performance (that seems to be the argument being made). Tracks and streets are nothing alike.
I can reach speeds on a highway that I could never reach on any race track, first of all. Lots of long straights on I-5 means I can get my Vette up to 180mph on a pretty regular basis, if I'm willing to take the risk. You'll never see those kind of straights on a road course.
Most race tracks are designed with lots of turns back to back with a single or maybe two long straight sections. Civil/Highway engineers design freeways the total opposite - turns over the longest distance possible (smallest radius), and far apart as possible.
Some tracks are designed specifically to challenge suspension designs of open-wheel racers with inclines/declines and banks shortly before/after apex, etc. Civil/Highway engineers design public roadways to eliminate banks and minimize inclines/declines, especially around corners.
The ("handling limitation") analogy of Ford's use of a solid rear axle is faulty. The live rear axle on the Mustang had noticeable and measurable impact on the Mustang's handling, well before the car had reached other physical limitations (for example, traction). It was the primary limitation in the Mustang's track performance. The new Mustang showed significant measurable improvements once they adopted IRS.
Going to a mid-engine design, by itself, would not show a comparable improvement in the Corvette (to going IRS in the Ford). The main reason to go with a mid-engine design is to perfect weight to an optimal 50/50 balance front-to-rear. The Corvette is already so close to 50/50 that the difference here would be negligible. So removing the weight bias of the FE layout in the Vette isn't removing a significant limitation, it is at best a very minor tweak.
It's getting pretty crazy regarding advertised top speeds these days with top speeds listed in excess of 200 mph. (How about that Bugatti Veyron at around 250 mph?) There was an interesting Road & Track video on You Tube with a supercar (I think it was a BMW i8). The point was, on a closed 1.2 mile road that was fairly straight albeit with some mild curves, they couldn't get the car any where near 200 mph. The same was true on the race track. Unless you want to drive on two+ mile runways, speeds like that aren't even useful except maybe for bragging rights. I think the ultimate goal would be to make cars that are the fastest on any moderate race track.
08-25-2016, 07:05 AM
#486
Safety Car
Just to add a little fuel to the fire, Peter DeLorenzo at Autoextremist is a reader email reply, stated the following:
"Editor-In-Chief's Note: Yes, the mid-engine C8 Corvette not only exists, it will make its official debut as a 2019 model at the Detroit Auto Show in January 2018. (A super-hot version of the current C7 Corvette will debut next January at Cobo Hall to tide the Corvette faithful over until the mid-engine C8 arrives.) The new C8 will employ many of the recent technological developments in advanced materials and construction gleaned by GM's True Believers while developing the structure of the Cadillac CT6. By all reports from my moles inside GM the new mid-engine Corvette is a beautiful, even stunning, car with the performance capability worthy of the first mid-engine Corvette in history. There will be, of course, a gradual rollout of the various powertrain iterations from 2019 through 2022, including an eventual AWD Hybrid version, but the important thing to know about the new mid-engine Corvette is that not only will it be a formidable beast, but it will stay within the realm of reasonable pricing, which is a key detail that will shock enthusiast consumers. The idea of this car has been discussed for 40 years within the hallways of GM Design and Product Development, but I am happy to report that the time has finally arrived for a mid-engine Corvette. As for rumors that the C7 will continue to be built alongside the new Corvette? That is absolutely not true. As for a mid-engine Cadillac halo vehicle using the underpinnings of the C8? That machine exists as a design only, and no decision has been made as to whether or not the car will actually be built. Given what I said in my deep-dive on Cadillac in my "Rant" and "Fumes" this week, I'd have to seriously question the efficacy of doing a car like that. -PMD"
Take it for what it's worth.
"Editor-In-Chief's Note: Yes, the mid-engine C8 Corvette not only exists, it will make its official debut as a 2019 model at the Detroit Auto Show in January 2018. (A super-hot version of the current C7 Corvette will debut next January at Cobo Hall to tide the Corvette faithful over until the mid-engine C8 arrives.) The new C8 will employ many of the recent technological developments in advanced materials and construction gleaned by GM's True Believers while developing the structure of the Cadillac CT6. By all reports from my moles inside GM the new mid-engine Corvette is a beautiful, even stunning, car with the performance capability worthy of the first mid-engine Corvette in history. There will be, of course, a gradual rollout of the various powertrain iterations from 2019 through 2022, including an eventual AWD Hybrid version, but the important thing to know about the new mid-engine Corvette is that not only will it be a formidable beast, but it will stay within the realm of reasonable pricing, which is a key detail that will shock enthusiast consumers. The idea of this car has been discussed for 40 years within the hallways of GM Design and Product Development, but I am happy to report that the time has finally arrived for a mid-engine Corvette. As for rumors that the C7 will continue to be built alongside the new Corvette? That is absolutely not true. As for a mid-engine Cadillac halo vehicle using the underpinnings of the C8? That machine exists as a design only, and no decision has been made as to whether or not the car will actually be built. Given what I said in my deep-dive on Cadillac in my "Rant" and "Fumes" this week, I'd have to seriously question the efficacy of doing a car like that. -PMD"
Take it for what it's worth.
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z51vett (12-09-2016)
08-25-2016, 07:27 AM
#487
Just to add a little fuel to the fire, Peter DeLorenzo at Autoextremist is a reader email reply, stated the following:
"Editor-In-Chief's Note: Yes, the mid-engine C8 Corvette not only exists, it will make its official debut as a 2019 model at the Detroit Auto Show in January 2018. (A super-hot version of the current C7 Corvette will debut next January at Cobo Hall to tide the Corvette faithful over until the mid-engine C8 arrives.) The new C8 will employ many of the recent technological developments in advanced materials and construction gleaned by GM's True Believers while developing the structure of the Cadillac CT6. By all reports from my moles inside GM the new mid-engine Corvette is a beautiful, even stunning, car with the performance capability worthy of the first mid-engine Corvette in history. There will be, of course, a gradual rollout of the various powertrain iterations from 2019 through 2022, including an eventual AWD Hybrid version, but the important thing to know about the new mid-engine Corvette is that not only will it be a formidable beast, but it will stay within the realm of reasonable pricing, which is a key detail that will shock enthusiast consumers. The idea of this car has been discussed for 40 years within the hallways of GM Design and Product Development, but I am happy to report that the time has finally arrived for a mid-engine Corvette. As for rumors that the C7 will continue to be built alongside the new Corvette? That is absolutely not true. As for a mid-engine Cadillac halo vehicle using the underpinnings of the C8? That machine exists as a design only, and no decision has been made as to whether or not the car will actually be built. Given what I said in my deep-dive on Cadillac in my "Rant" and "Fumes" this week, I'd have to seriously question the efficacy of doing a car like that. -PMD"
Take it for what it's worth.
"Editor-In-Chief's Note: Yes, the mid-engine C8 Corvette not only exists, it will make its official debut as a 2019 model at the Detroit Auto Show in January 2018. (A super-hot version of the current C7 Corvette will debut next January at Cobo Hall to tide the Corvette faithful over until the mid-engine C8 arrives.) The new C8 will employ many of the recent technological developments in advanced materials and construction gleaned by GM's True Believers while developing the structure of the Cadillac CT6. By all reports from my moles inside GM the new mid-engine Corvette is a beautiful, even stunning, car with the performance capability worthy of the first mid-engine Corvette in history. There will be, of course, a gradual rollout of the various powertrain iterations from 2019 through 2022, including an eventual AWD Hybrid version, but the important thing to know about the new mid-engine Corvette is that not only will it be a formidable beast, but it will stay within the realm of reasonable pricing, which is a key detail that will shock enthusiast consumers. The idea of this car has been discussed for 40 years within the hallways of GM Design and Product Development, but I am happy to report that the time has finally arrived for a mid-engine Corvette. As for rumors that the C7 will continue to be built alongside the new Corvette? That is absolutely not true. As for a mid-engine Cadillac halo vehicle using the underpinnings of the C8? That machine exists as a design only, and no decision has been made as to whether or not the car will actually be built. Given what I said in my deep-dive on Cadillac in my "Rant" and "Fumes" this week, I'd have to seriously question the efficacy of doing a car like that. -PMD"
Take it for what it's worth.
Considering Peter's CONSIDERABLE contacts within GM, I would say his reporting carries a lot of weight.
Now why this upsets folks on the forum is beyond me. Moving the Corvette ever higher up the sports car food chain should be looked upon as a good thing.
For those diehards that prefer the traditional front-engine layout, it looks like you have a few more years to get your "last" front-engine Corvette. Considering the age demographics on Corvettes, that probably means their last car anyway.
Change is good; embrace it.
08-25-2016, 07:30 AM
#488
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Just to add a little fuel to the fire, Peter DeLorenzo at Autoextremist is a reader email reply, stated the following:
"Editor-In-Chief's Note: Yes, the mid-engine C8 Corvette not only exists, it will make its official debut as a 2019 model at the Detroit Auto Show in January 2018. (A super-hot version of the current C7 Corvette will debut next January at Cobo Hall to tide the Corvette faithful over until the mid-engine C8 arrives.) The new C8 will employ many of the recent technological developments in advanced materials and construction gleaned by GM's True Believers while developing the structure of the Cadillac CT6. By all reports from my moles inside GM the new mid-engine Corvette is a beautiful, even stunning, car with the performance capability worthy of the first mid-engine Corvette in history. There will be, of course, a gradual rollout of the various powertrain iterations from 2019 through 2022, including an eventual AWD Hybrid version, but the important thing to know about the new mid-engine Corvette is that not only will it be a formidable beast, but it will stay within the realm of reasonable pricing, which is a key detail that will shock enthusiast consumers. The idea of this car has been discussed for 40 years within the hallways of GM Design and Product Development, but I am happy to report that the time has finally arrived for a mid-engine Corvette. As for rumors that the C7 will continue to be built alongside the new Corvette? That is absolutely not true. As for a mid-engine Cadillac halo vehicle using the underpinnings of the C8? That machine exists as a design only, and no decision has been made as to whether or not the car will actually be built. Given what I said in my deep-dive on Cadillac in my "Rant" and "Fumes" this week, I'd have to seriously question the efficacy of doing a car like that. -PMD"
Take it for what it's worth.
"Editor-In-Chief's Note: Yes, the mid-engine C8 Corvette not only exists, it will make its official debut as a 2019 model at the Detroit Auto Show in January 2018. (A super-hot version of the current C7 Corvette will debut next January at Cobo Hall to tide the Corvette faithful over until the mid-engine C8 arrives.) The new C8 will employ many of the recent technological developments in advanced materials and construction gleaned by GM's True Believers while developing the structure of the Cadillac CT6. By all reports from my moles inside GM the new mid-engine Corvette is a beautiful, even stunning, car with the performance capability worthy of the first mid-engine Corvette in history. There will be, of course, a gradual rollout of the various powertrain iterations from 2019 through 2022, including an eventual AWD Hybrid version, but the important thing to know about the new mid-engine Corvette is that not only will it be a formidable beast, but it will stay within the realm of reasonable pricing, which is a key detail that will shock enthusiast consumers. The idea of this car has been discussed for 40 years within the hallways of GM Design and Product Development, but I am happy to report that the time has finally arrived for a mid-engine Corvette. As for rumors that the C7 will continue to be built alongside the new Corvette? That is absolutely not true. As for a mid-engine Cadillac halo vehicle using the underpinnings of the C8? That machine exists as a design only, and no decision has been made as to whether or not the car will actually be built. Given what I said in my deep-dive on Cadillac in my "Rant" and "Fumes" this week, I'd have to seriously question the efficacy of doing a car like that. -PMD"
Take it for what it's worth.
The part about Cadillac is interesting, because from an engineering perspective they are in the same division (Dave Leone is VP of Performance and Cadillac) so both versions could be developed simultaneously by a single team (in this case the "Corvette" team under Performance). Under design they are separated, but if there is a design for the car, it probably exists and will be built.
I'm still wondering what the powertrains will be (as that's the biggest unknown) for the C7 faster "Z06," the Camaro "Z/28" and the Mid-Engine Car(s).
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gurneyeagle (08-25-2016)
08-26-2016, 08:56 AM
#489
Pro
I think to make it a worthwhile endeavour for GM to pump the amount of cash required to create the totally new C8 platform will result in a car that will be be substantially more than a $5000 upgrade. I would think $50 to $100 grand more.
08-27-2016, 05:33 PM
#491
Burning Brakes
I agree. $5k in the world of GM is a lunch tab.
08-27-2016, 06:20 PM
#492
Team Owner
Just to add a little fuel to the fire, Peter DeLorenzo at Autoextremist is a reader email reply, stated the following:
"Editor-In-Chief's Note: Yes, the mid-engine C8 Corvette not only exists, it will make its official debut as a 2019 model at the Detroit Auto Show in January 2018. (A super-hot version of the current C7 Corvette will debut next January at Cobo Hall to tide the Corvette faithful over until the mid-engine C8 arrives.) The new C8 will employ many of the recent technological developments in advanced materials and construction gleaned by GM's True Believers while developing the structure of the Cadillac CT6. By all reports from my moles inside GM the new mid-engine Corvette is a beautiful, even stunning, car with the performance capability worthy of the first mid-engine Corvette in history. There will be, of course, a gradual rollout of the various powertrain iterations from 2019 through 2022, including an eventual AWD Hybrid version, but the important thing to know about the new mid-engine Corvette is that not only will it be a formidable beast, but it will stay within the realm of reasonable pricing, which is a key detail that will shock enthusiast consumers. The idea of this car has been discussed for 40 years within the hallways of GM Design and Product Development, but I am happy to report that the time has finally arrived for a mid-engine Corvette. As for rumors that the C7 will continue to be built alongside the new Corvette? That is absolutely not true. As for a mid-engine Cadillac halo vehicle using the underpinnings of the C8? That machine exists as a design only, and no decision has been made as to whether or not the car will actually be built. Given what I said in my deep-dive on Cadillac in my "Rant" and "Fumes" this week, I'd have to seriously question the efficacy of doing a car like that. -PMD"
Take it for what it's worth.
"Editor-In-Chief's Note: Yes, the mid-engine C8 Corvette not only exists, it will make its official debut as a 2019 model at the Detroit Auto Show in January 2018. (A super-hot version of the current C7 Corvette will debut next January at Cobo Hall to tide the Corvette faithful over until the mid-engine C8 arrives.) The new C8 will employ many of the recent technological developments in advanced materials and construction gleaned by GM's True Believers while developing the structure of the Cadillac CT6. By all reports from my moles inside GM the new mid-engine Corvette is a beautiful, even stunning, car with the performance capability worthy of the first mid-engine Corvette in history. There will be, of course, a gradual rollout of the various powertrain iterations from 2019 through 2022, including an eventual AWD Hybrid version, but the important thing to know about the new mid-engine Corvette is that not only will it be a formidable beast, but it will stay within the realm of reasonable pricing, which is a key detail that will shock enthusiast consumers. The idea of this car has been discussed for 40 years within the hallways of GM Design and Product Development, but I am happy to report that the time has finally arrived for a mid-engine Corvette. As for rumors that the C7 will continue to be built alongside the new Corvette? That is absolutely not true. As for a mid-engine Cadillac halo vehicle using the underpinnings of the C8? That machine exists as a design only, and no decision has been made as to whether or not the car will actually be built. Given what I said in my deep-dive on Cadillac in my "Rant" and "Fumes" this week, I'd have to seriously question the efficacy of doing a car like that. -PMD"
Take it for what it's worth.
08-29-2016, 12:51 PM
#493
Burning Brakes
Maybe in 40 years, so our grandkids can do the whole barn find thing. 
08-30-2016, 08:21 AM
#495
Race Director
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St. Jude Donor '16-'17,'22,'24
Personally, I would prefer that the C7 be a short run making the existing C7s that much more desirable, especially since I have a M7 which will probably be discontinued with the next gen Vette, but I think GM/Chevrolet is committed to a lower priced Corvette even if it takes two models. Besides, GM/Chevrolet appears to be following the Porsche marketing model and that model includes multiple platforms. So I don't think the expert got that part right.
08-30-2016, 12:47 PM
#496
I would argue an FMR with 50/50 weight and modern suspension technology can "wash out" most of the moment of inertia gains you get from a true MR with 50/50 weight. Corvette with a few tweaks could be a true FMR car as opposed to being nearly one now (front of engine sits just on top of instead of behind the front axle plane)
As long as the bulk of the weight is centrally located moment of inertia is close to ideal. MR isn't perfectly central either.
As long as the bulk of the weight is centrally located moment of inertia is close to ideal. MR isn't perfectly central either.
08-30-2016, 01:01 PM
#497
08-30-2016, 02:04 PM
#498
Like I've said before, you'll probably get two trims. I don't see GM investing in a totally new configuration and restrict it just to a halo model like Ford is doing with the GT.
I think you will see a mass produced mid-engine around 85K, and if that is the case, assuming they can dial in the performance to match, it's going to blow the socks off even the venerable 911.
We shall see...
I think you will see a mass produced mid-engine around 85K, and if that is the case, assuming they can dial in the performance to match, it's going to blow the socks off even the venerable 911.
We shall see...
09-01-2016, 11:06 AM
#499
Burning Brakes
I'm not big on the mid-engine idea for this car, but I will confess, I'm eager to see what it does. I hope they stay away from the sharp angle/Cadillac styling that has taken over at GM, and make it smooth and beautiful rather than sharp and angry. Nothing against the C7, mind you. But the Caddies that came after the Eldo died don't do a thing for me in the looks department. The XLR was pretty cool looking though.
09-01-2016, 11:07 AM
#500
Burning Brakes