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Grip really is not dependent on tire width; tire compound and sidewall height matter much more. Wider tires just spread the same weight over more area (lowering heat), but since friction is a function of pressure between surfaces you just end up with the same amount of friction distributed over a larger area with a lower per-unit-of-area friction.
Debunked that tire friction force not being dependent on tire surface area in the 60's even with a professor in a mechanics course! Using classic friction theory a dragster could only achieve a 10 second quarter time, as I recall. Max 1 "g" acceleration with a friction coefficient of 1! That works for wood on wood or pavement but rubber yields and in the case of a dragster shears as well!
I have 16.5 inch wide Mickey Thomsons on my ProStreet Rod and can assure you I'm still limited to a 2000 rpm launch with 53% of the cars weight on the rear wheels, 4 bar link rear suspension set correctly etc. That 8.2 liter engine has lots of torque combined with the high stall converter and rear gears!
Dragsters are achieving about 6 "g's" off the line as I recall and the 1000 foot mark comes in a little over 3 seconds! Needs much more than a fixed 1 coefficient of friction! Wide tires matter-that's why I'm getting a GS when I sell my 2014 Z51. Those skinny C7 rear tires look anemic when parked in my garage next to my Street Rod!
me , i miss my ls3, since then the car has not left the dealer since. my car basically lives in the dealer now .... hopefully GM fixes this issue by 2098
I'd argue that the thinnest practical tire possible yields the most traction you can get. Assume consistent tire compound, tread pattern, all that good stuff. I know you can't drive around on 2" wide tires in practice though; the rubber wouldn't last long at all and tires would heat up so much faster that melting would become an issue.
I think the less area and resulting increased pressure between tire and road actually increases the tire's coefficient of friction. Increased pressure, driving the rubber further down into the pits of asphalt or concrete.
I truly believe this, but I wouldn't want a 3" wide tire on my vette. 335's look better and last longer than 185's.
If anyone wants to test out my theory, just make sure you let me know how well your car does wheelies now. Thank me later.
Try your 3 inch tire on a dragster and see if you can get 6 "g's" off the line!
That classic friction theory you learned in high school physics with a wood block on an inclined plane does not fit a rubber tire! As mentioned above, recall reminding a prof in the '60's that it doesn't fit rubber tires on cars or you'd be limited to max 1 "g" acceleration!
The forces a tire can develop on pavement are dependent on many things like compound, section width, rim width, tire width, contact length etc.
Always like testing a postulate with extremes and your 3 inch tire is a good example! Do you really think you can "pop a wheelie" with a 3 inch wide tire!?
Try your 3 inch tire on a dragster and see if you can get 6 "g's" off the line!
That classic friction theory you learned in high school physics with a wood block on an inclined plane does not fit a rubber tire! As mentioned above, recall reminding a prof in the '60's that it doesn't fit rubber tires on cars or you'd be limited to max 1 "g" acceleration!
The forces a tire can develop on pavement are dependent on many things like compound, section width, rim width, tire width, contact length etc.
Always like testing a postulate with extremes and your 3 inch tire is a good example! Do you really think you can "pop a wheelie" with a 3 inch wide tire!?
I agree the coefficient of friction is more complex against rubber_road vs wood_wood, that's what I explained above. How do the variables you list above influence traction?
I agree the coefficient of friction is more complex against rubber_road vs wood_wood, that's what I explained above. How do the variables you list above influence traction?
Tire companies spend lots of time and money trying to answer the question you ask! Tire compound is a big factor, as are tire temp and all the factors they have to consider. Recall race cars of old had skinny tires then folks like Jim Hall found they could corner faster with wider tires so the tire width war started!
I find drag racing history was also an evolution. Back in the day relatively skinny tires (by today's standards) were what was available and quarter mile runs were made with slipping, spinning tires. If you watch a AA Fuel Dragster on TV the winning car has little tire slipping.. Watch the super slow mo and you'll side walls ripple and a very long tire footprint.
However the most impressive is at the end of the 1000 foot run when the tire grows significantly in diameter and the back side sucks in, almost touching the rim! Tremendous forces in action. A race car tire, and the Z51 and Z06, GS low profile 20 inch tires have stiff side walls. A wider rim makes it even stiffer and more responsive, very low slip angle.
GS and Z06 with cup tires have the stickiest compounds and most performance oriented construction. Very low slip angles.
Usually post this pic to explain tire chatter as we get into cold weather. This is what slip angle is all about. Pic is from old racing car construction book, the Z51 tires are probably close to race car tires of old!
Again, all this tuning to fuel economy versus power.. there are trade offs there somewhere!
I did feel the slight hesitation right off idle, too. At least compared against LS3/7, it feels a bit more vulnerable. Nothing you can't adjust to, though. My Miata is still much more sensitive to throttle during launch.
For the sake of making a point about the awesome improvements the LT1 has over the LS3, I think it is fine to point out that it makes as much torque/power as the LS7. That said...everyone that has an LS7 knows that this car loves high RPMs and the heads are designed this way. Put a set of 240-250cc Cathedral ports on the same block and the power band would shift violently to the bottom-center...
Something else to consider is that the LS7 was choked off severely to meet EPA/mfg standards. This engine, with very little done to it, makes north of 600HP with comparable gas mileage as the stock setup. I think driving off the factory floor, there should be very little difference to the driver what the LT1 and LS7 end up doing driving around the street but that extra RPM and the extra potential when modding makes the LS7 superior. Plus there is no replacement for displacement.
As far as the LT platform being better than the LS..we shall see. Of course when money is unlimited, the LT platform will probably make more power liter per liter but from a practicality standpoint on ease of maintenance, ease of modifying etc, the LS may be better suited. Not to mention, it will take 6-8 additional years for people to figure out how to get the most out of the LT platform. We are just now figuring out how to routinely get north of 600rwhp from a street-driven LS7 setup. In part, because Tony Mamo is just now getting hot and heavy onto the scene of LS7's. He doesn't like the LT engines, so someone might have to twist his arm to learn how to get the most out of those engines for the community. My understanding is that LT and LS are apples to oranges when it comes to modifying them to extract horsepower.
Last edited by fueledpassion; 11-03-2016 at 01:33 PM.
I recently took my Z51/M7/C7 into a speed shop for a dyno test and tune. With nothing but an AFE cold air intake, it put 455 to the rear wheels right away. The tuner was able to get about 15hp more and the throttle is slightly more responsive at low throttle percentage. I think the LT1 is underrated HP and Torque wise from the factory.
I did feel the slight hesitation right off idle, too. At least compared against LS3/7, it feels a bit more vulnerable. Nothing you can't adjust to, though. My Miata is still much more sensitive to throttle during launch.
Agreed. My throttle did not open 100% until above 3200 RPM according to my recent dyno tuner. Emissions and traction control.
During the C6 era, Corvettes (with LS engines) were so dominant here on the streets and were considered as The King of the Streets. No other American sports cars (Ford, Dodge mainly) could keep up with the Corvettes on the streets.
However, since the C7 came out, most Mustangs and Dodge heavy cars are beating the Corvettes on the Streets very easily and Corvette has lost the title once earned.
I believe it is very hard to get more power out of the LT engines than the LS ones, I don't care about Fuel efficiency, and luxury touches. So, I pick the LS Engine any day of the week.
St. Jude Donor '11-'12-'13-'14-'15-'16-'17-'18-'19-'20-'21
Originally Posted by alnassak
During the C6 era, Corvettes (with LS engines) were so dominant here on the streets and were considered as The King of the Streets. No other American sports cars (Ford, Dodge mainly) could keep up with the Corvettes on the streets.
However, since the C7 came out, most Mustangs and Dodge heavy cars are beating the Corvettes on the Streets very easily and Corvette has lost the title once earned.
I believe it is very hard to get more power out of the LT engines than the LS ones, I don't care about Fuel efficiency, and luxury touches. So, I pick the LS Engine any day of the week.
During the C6 era, Corvettes (with LS engines) were so dominant here on the streets and were considered as The King of the Streets. No other American sports cars (Ford, Dodge mainly) could keep up with the Corvettes on the streets.
However, since the C7 came out, most Mustangs and Dodge heavy cars are beating the Corvettes on the Streets very easily and Corvette has lost the title once earned.
I believe it is very hard to get more power out of the LT engines than the LS ones, I don't care about Fuel efficiency, and luxury touches. So, I pick the LS Engine any day of the week.
I realize I am biased towards the LS (because I drive a C6Z)...but let me be clear about something...
The C6Z never handed over it's title as 'king of the streets'. Quite honestly, it has yet to give it over to the C7Z, IMO. Unless that C7Z is modded beyond a CAI and a tune, I'm not giving him anything! At best, I would call the fight between the two as a draw, not a clear win for either. The C7Z has the power, but in the wrong places and is a heavier car (partly why GM went with a smaller charger I think to shift the power down low).
LS3 and LT1 powered Vettes never had a title on the streets other than a formidable foe. The new pony cars are just fast because they have chargers of sorts on them. You have to keep perspective on the fact that pony cars are just that - "one trick ponies". Put a procharger on either C6/7 base model Vette and it would take a modded bike or hypercar to beat it in a straight line. Something else to point out about Corvettes that isn't captured on a dyno sheet or a time slip - the "scary fast effect" of a screaming NA setup.
Case in point - last week I took a gentleman out in my car and scared him. He decided it was as fast as he cared to go. The twist to the story is this: he drives a 580rwhp CTS-V.
Someone with a near 700hp Saloon got scared in my measly H/C/E C6Z. He claimed that it was "Violent" compared to his setup.
Last edited by fueledpassion; 11-04-2016 at 11:46 AM.
I recently took my Z51/M7/C7 into a speed shop for a dyno test and tune. With nothing but an AFE cold air intake, it put 455 to the rear wheels right away. The tuner was able to get about 15hp more and the throttle is slightly more responsive at low throttle percentage. I think the LT1 is underrated HP and Torque wise from the factory.
And the other question is - can this engine produce 550rwtq like an LS7 can? Or will it peter out around 490-500rwtq?
10-27-2016, 08:49 AM
, i miss my ls3, since then the car has not left the dealer since. my car basically lives in the dealer now .... hopefully GM fixes this issue by 2098
At best, I would call the fight between the two as a draw, not a clear win for either. The C7Z has the power, but in the wrong places and is a heavier car (partly why GM went with a smaller charger I think to shift the power down low).