Anyone wish the C7 came with an LS motor
10-25-2016, 08:23 PM
#41
Interesting indeed, and yes, i only start adding throttle when the clutch starts to engage. Sometimes i don't add very much throttle and even on level, it will just quit. Can never just feather on level without some throttle. I have 7000kms on it... ( 5000 miles ) maybe it needs more loosening up ). It has gotten much better, probably because i have gotten more used to the engagement/throttle and maybe also because it has broken in more. Different modes have different sensitivities and that takes some getting used to.
After our earlier discussion this afternoon, tonight I was in rush-hour, stop-and-go traffic coming out of Washington DC, and I made a half-dozen or so starts from idle on level ground w/ zero throttle. It can be done w/ a very gentle clutch release, and that doesn't slip it either.
One of the things I've enjoyed most about driving MTs on street and track for more than 40 years is the challenge of mastering the the right amount of throttle, the timing of release perfectly, and keeping the car smooth and settled, which of course, no one will ever do 100% of the time.
However, it's all about the pursuit of mastery, which makes life interesting!
10-25-2016, 10:45 PM
#42
I keep harping on the fact that the C7 doesn't have that much power at 460 and I wish that it had at least the same as the out going Z06. I've never driven a Z06 but just how much more seat of the pants power does it have over the C7, is 45 more bhp that more noticeable and how much more does the C7 weigh over the C6Z06?
The LT1 and LS7 have essentially the same torque output (460 vs. 470 ft/lbs., respectively). The C6 Z06 does weigh about 200 lbs. less than than a C7 Z51, and about 100 lbs. less than a C7 base.
It is also important to note that the C6 Z06 has more tire, which does give it an edge from a standing start and on the track. However, the C6 Z06 was only available as a 6MT, so only the most skilled drivers are able to get the most out of it.
Bottom line is that the seat of pants feel is pretty much equal between the two engines, and you wouldn't feel much, if any difference. It's also notable that the C7 is easier for the average person to drive faster because the electronic stability control system is far more sophisticated.
Last edited by Foosh; 10-25-2016 at 11:12 PM.
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kenownr (10-26-2016)
10-25-2016, 11:36 PM
#43
Sr.Random input generator
Regarding stalling, I think it might have to do with the hill start assist that locks up the brakes. I hate slipping clutch, and take pleasure at giving the least amount of throttle during starts/launches. I ended up stalling the car a few times since I got it, since I gave only adequate throttle, and car stalled, still applying brakes due to hill start.
10-25-2016, 11:50 PM
#44
That's not likely, barring some malfunction I've never heard of. If you're good with simultaneous clutch and throttle engagement, you won't even even know hill assist exists.
10-25-2016, 11:53 PM
#45
Sr.Random input generator
If you're simultaneous, you'd actually be faster than its release time and know that it exists. Finesse often reveals it. I'm surprised you never felt it; perhaps not many step streets with traffic lights around your home..
10-26-2016, 12:00 AM
#47
Sr.Random input generator
10-26-2016, 12:04 AM
#48
I've only felt it once when I was testing it by purposely putting the clutch pedal on the floor and releasing the brake on a steep hill. The car held and release was instantaneous when I engaged the clutch and throttle to launch. There was no grabbing whatsoever.
Perhaps it works better on my car than others.
Last edited by Foosh; 10-26-2016 at 12:05 AM.
10-26-2016, 12:09 AM
#49
Maybe. Peak torque on the LT1 is 460 ft/lbs. Peak torque on the LS7 is 470 ft. lbs. If the LS7 pulls away, it's slowly on the top end in 4th gear because of the 40-45 extra HP.
However, the question was about "seat-of-pants" feel, which is all about torque, which is essentially equal on both engines.
However, the question was about "seat-of-pants" feel, which is all about torque, which is essentially equal on both engines.
Last edited by Foosh; 10-26-2016 at 12:15 AM.
10-26-2016, 07:37 AM
#50
Throttle Response
What OP is feeling is lack of throttle response due to AFM/DOD, especially with an automatic tranny. Easily remedied with a tune like a Diablo or Trifecta.
10-26-2016, 11:44 AM
#51
Team Owner
The LT1 has the same torque as the LS7 up to around 4,500 RPm but then the LT1's torque drops like a rock, while the LS7's torque continues to climb to around 10 lb-ft more. BUT, the LS7's torque does not drop like a rock(which explains why the LS7's horsepower is 55HP greater than the LT1's).
I doubt that you have ever driven a C6 Z06 or you would 100% understand why people say the LS7 is unbelievable from 4,500 RPM to 7,000 RPM. It doesn't push you back into the seat, it slams you back into the seat.
As for the LT1 vs the LS3, I prefer the LS3. Add the VVT to the LS3 and it's low end torque would be nearly the same as the LT1's. Forget about the DI(unless they make it combo DI/port injection system) and don't even consider the AFM for a LS3
Do a standing start run between a LS7 and a LT1 shifting at redline. The LS7 never dips below 4,500 RPM after a shift, but stays in the 5,000 to 7,000 range where it's torque doesn't drop like a rock, like the Lt1. The only time the LT1 is comparable to the LS7 is from 0 MPH to 40 MPH, then it's the LS7 all the way to 198 MPH.
I doubt that you have ever driven a C6 Z06 or you would 100% understand why people say the LS7 is unbelievable from 4,500 RPM to 7,000 RPM. It doesn't push you back into the seat, it slams you back into the seat.
As for the LT1 vs the LS3, I prefer the LS3. Add the VVT to the LS3 and it's low end torque would be nearly the same as the LT1's. Forget about the DI(unless they make it combo DI/port injection system) and don't even consider the AFM for a LS3
Do a standing start run between a LS7 and a LT1 shifting at redline. The LS7 never dips below 4,500 RPM after a shift, but stays in the 5,000 to 7,000 range where it's torque doesn't drop like a rock, like the Lt1. The only time the LT1 is comparable to the LS7 is from 0 MPH to 40 MPH, then it's the LS7 all the way to 198 MPH.
Last edited by JoesC5; 10-26-2016 at 11:53 AM.
10-26-2016, 11:57 AM
#52
Team Owner
The seat of the pants feel is essentially the same between the C7 and C6 Z06. It's not HP, but torque that plants you in the seat. HP is about top end speed, torque is what makes a car accelerate faster, all things being equal.
The LT1 and LS7 have essentially the same torque output (460 vs. 470 ft/lbs., respectively). The C6 Z06 does weigh about 200 lbs. less than than a C7 Z51, and about 100 lbs. less than a C7 base.
It is also important to note that the C6 Z06 has more tire, which does give it an edge from a standing start and on the track. However, the C6 Z06 was only available as a 6MT, so only the most skilled drivers are able to get the most out of it.
Bottom line is that the seat of pants feel is pretty much equal between the two engines, and you wouldn't feel much, if any difference. It's also notable that the C7 is easier for the average person to drive faster because the electronic stability control system is far more sophisticated.
The LT1 and LS7 have essentially the same torque output (460 vs. 470 ft/lbs., respectively). The C6 Z06 does weigh about 200 lbs. less than than a C7 Z51, and about 100 lbs. less than a C7 base.
It is also important to note that the C6 Z06 has more tire, which does give it an edge from a standing start and on the track. However, the C6 Z06 was only available as a 6MT, so only the most skilled drivers are able to get the most out of it.
Bottom line is that the seat of pants feel is pretty much equal between the two engines, and you wouldn't feel much, if any difference. It's also notable that the C7 is easier for the average person to drive faster because the electronic stability control system is far more sophisticated.
Last edited by themonk; 10-26-2016 at 11:58 AM.
10-26-2016, 11:58 AM
#53
Joe,
The LS7 is 45 HP and 10 ft lbs. more. I do disagree with your description of the LS7 above. The LT1 and LS3 torque curves have the same shape, but the latter has 50 ft lbs. less (see graph above). The LS7 torque curve also falls off after the 470 peak at 4900 rpm, and looks similar to the LT1 and LS3 curves. If the LT1's torque "drops like a rock" after 4500 rpm, they all do, but HP continues to build on all 3 engines to near red-line.
I had a C6 Z06 and a fair amount of track time in them, and I don't recall that "it slams you back into the seat" from 4.5 to 7K. In fact, I believe it red-lined at 6200.
I don't feel much difference between my current Z51 and the C6 Z06.
The LS7 is 45 HP and 10 ft lbs. more. I do disagree with your description of the LS7 above. The LT1 and LS3 torque curves have the same shape, but the latter has 50 ft lbs. less (see graph above). The LS7 torque curve also falls off after the 470 peak at 4900 rpm, and looks similar to the LT1 and LS3 curves. If the LT1's torque "drops like a rock" after 4500 rpm, they all do, but HP continues to build on all 3 engines to near red-line.
I had a C6 Z06 and a fair amount of track time in them, and I don't recall that "it slams you back into the seat" from 4.5 to 7K. In fact, I believe it red-lined at 6200.
I don't feel much difference between my current Z51 and the C6 Z06.
Last edited by Foosh; 10-26-2016 at 12:21 PM.
10-26-2016, 12:00 PM
#54
Team Owner
The LT1 has the same torque as the LS7 up to around 4,500 RPm but then the LT1's torque drops like a rock, while the LS7's torque continues to climb to around 10 lb-ft more. BUT, the LS7's torque does not drop like a rock(which explains why the LS7's horsepower is 55HP greater than the LT1's).
I doubt that you have ever driven a C6 Z06 or you would 100% understand why people say the LS7 is unbelievable from 4,500 RPM to 7,000 RPM. It doesn't push you back into the seat, it slams you back into the seat.
As for the LT1 vs the LS3, I prefer the LS3. Add the VVT to the LS3 and it's low end torque would be nearly the same as the LT1's. Forget about the DI(unless they make it combo DI/port injection system) and don't even consider the AFM for a LS3
Do a standing start run between a LS7 and a LT1 shifting at redline. The LS7 never dips below 4,500 RPM after a shift, but stays in the 5,000 to 7,000 range where it's torque doesn't drop like a rock, like the Lt1. The only time the LT1 is comparable to the LS7 is from 0 MPH to 40 MPH, then it's the LS7 all the way to 198 MPH.
I doubt that you have ever driven a C6 Z06 or you would 100% understand why people say the LS7 is unbelievable from 4,500 RPM to 7,000 RPM. It doesn't push you back into the seat, it slams you back into the seat.
As for the LT1 vs the LS3, I prefer the LS3. Add the VVT to the LS3 and it's low end torque would be nearly the same as the LT1's. Forget about the DI(unless they make it combo DI/port injection system) and don't even consider the AFM for a LS3
Do a standing start run between a LS7 and a LT1 shifting at redline. The LS7 never dips below 4,500 RPM after a shift, but stays in the 5,000 to 7,000 range where it's torque doesn't drop like a rock, like the Lt1. The only time the LT1 is comparable to the LS7 is from 0 MPH to 40 MPH, then it's the LS7 all the way to 198 MPH.
10-26-2016, 12:01 PM
#55
Drifting
This is the way the clutch release technique which is taught and insisted on being used at Spring Mountain. They said they replaced a lot of clutches prior to requiring this method. Since they implemented it, they have had zero clutch failures.
After our earlier discussion this afternoon, tonight I was in rush-hour, stop-and-go traffic coming out of Washington DC, and I made a half-dozen or so starts from idle on level ground w/ zero throttle. It can be done w/ a very gentle clutch release, and that doesn't slip it either.
One of the things I've enjoyed most about driving MTs on street and track for more than 40 years is the challenge of mastering the the right amount of throttle, the timing of release perfectly, and keeping the car smooth and settled, which of course, no one will ever do 100% of the time.
However, it's all about the pursuit of mastery, which makes life interesting!
One of the things I've enjoyed most about driving MTs on street and track for more than 40 years is the challenge of mastering the the right amount of throttle, the timing of release perfectly, and keeping the car smooth and settled, which of course, no one will ever do 100% of the time.
However, it's all about the pursuit of mastery, which makes life interesting!
10-26-2016, 12:07 PM
#56
Safety Car
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Having owned several C5 Z06's and a half dozen C6's I can agree the LS engines were good engines but not as good as the LT.
In my opinion, the biggest issues with the LS engines was the crank pulley or harmonic balancer. It was not "pinned" to the crankshaft and was only pressed on. Over time for whatever reason the pulley could work its was loose. For those not under warranty this meant having to spend anywhere from $1000-$1500 for an unnecessary repair. This did not apply to the LS9 engines which were pinned but the rest were not.
The LS7 engines were also susceptible to throwing rods however I never had this problem on my C6 Z06. So, LS good, LT better.
In my opinion, the biggest issues with the LS engines was the crank pulley or harmonic balancer. It was not "pinned" to the crankshaft and was only pressed on. Over time for whatever reason the pulley could work its was loose. For those not under warranty this meant having to spend anywhere from $1000-$1500 for an unnecessary repair. This did not apply to the LS9 engines which were pinned but the rest were not.
The LS7 engines were also susceptible to throwing rods however I never had this problem on my C6 Z06. So, LS good, LT better.
10-26-2016, 12:08 PM
#57
Team Owner
I read your post from start to finish, and I'm pretty agnostic when rating engines and manufacturers having owned a little of just about everything when it comes to vehicles and powertrains. I've owned both an LS1 in an 05 C6 Z51 and an LS7 in an 06 C6 Z06.
I prefer the feel of the LT1 engine, which feels and is much stronger than an LS3. To me it feels more responsive than the LS7, even though the latter is rated at 45 more HP.
The LT1 feels much more responsive, which I believe is due in part to direct injection, and more sophisticated electronic control of the throttle response.
I prefer the feel of the LT1 engine, which feels and is much stronger than an LS3. To me it feels more responsive than the LS7, even though the latter is rated at 45 more HP.
The LT1 feels much more responsive, which I believe is due in part to direct injection, and more sophisticated electronic control of the throttle response.
10-26-2016, 12:13 PM
#58
Having owned several C5 Z06's and a half dozen C6's I can agree the LS engines were good engines but not as good as the LT.
In my opinion, the biggest issues with the LS engines was the crank pulley or harmonic balancer. It was not "pinned" to the crankshaft and was only pressed on. Over time for whatever reason the pulley could work its was loose. For those not under warranty this meant having to spend anywhere from $1000-$1500 for an unnecessary repair. This did not apply to the LS9 engines which were pinned but the rest were not.
The LS7 engines were also susceptible to throwing rods however I never had this problem on my C6 Z06. So, LS good, LT better.
In my opinion, the biggest issues with the LS engines was the crank pulley or harmonic balancer. It was not "pinned" to the crankshaft and was only pressed on. Over time for whatever reason the pulley could work its was loose. For those not under warranty this meant having to spend anywhere from $1000-$1500 for an unnecessary repair. This did not apply to the LS9 engines which were pinned but the rest were not.
The LS7 engines were also susceptible to throwing rods however I never had this problem on my C6 Z06. So, LS good, LT better.
My car did get one of the later new LS7s free-of-charge, which lives on with it's new owner today.
10-26-2016, 12:17 PM
#59
Having owned several C5 Z06's and a half dozen C6's I can agree the LS engines were good engines but not as good as the LT.
In my opinion, the biggest issues with the LS engines was the crank pulley or harmonic balancer. It was not "pinned" to the crankshaft and was only pressed on. Over time for whatever reason the pulley could work its was loose. For those not under warranty this meant having to spend anywhere from $1000-$1500 for an unnecessary repair. This did not apply to the LS9 engines which were pinned but the rest were not.
The LS7 engines were also susceptible to throwing rods however I never had this problem on my C6 Z06. So, LS good, LT better.
In my opinion, the biggest issues with the LS engines was the crank pulley or harmonic balancer. It was not "pinned" to the crankshaft and was only pressed on. Over time for whatever reason the pulley could work its was loose. For those not under warranty this meant having to spend anywhere from $1000-$1500 for an unnecessary repair. This did not apply to the LS9 engines which were pinned but the rest were not.
The LS7 engines were also susceptible to throwing rods however I never had this problem on my C6 Z06. So, LS good, LT better.
10-26-2016, 12:18 PM
#60
but isn't FEELING more power akin to BMW piping exhaust sound through speakers into cabin to give you a sense that the exhaust is loud? How does FEELING stand up to actual DOING? Does a Z06 pin you to the seat on take off, if I had a fat set of sticky rears would I get the same pin you to the seat as the Z?
"How does FEELING stand up to actual DOING?" Wow, that's deep and makes my head hurt. As far as piping exhaust sounds into the cabin, that's hearing not feeling.