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I guess I need some explanation on a 160 vs180 'stat. My '93 lt1 runs about 189-190 on the highway, so I am assuming my 180 thermostat is open. If I were using a 160 it still would be open and it still would be running at that 189-190 temp. The fan settings are going to kick on at preset temps regardless of either thermostats. Having fans come on sooner would reduce engine temps to a lower temp, but I don't think it would be below the engine temp that is created just by the engine running. If you removed all the heat from the engine to below the thermostat opening, it would seem that it would not be a very good running engine. I don't know????
I guess I need some explanation on a 160 vs180 'stat. My '93 lt1 runs about 189-190 on the highway, so I am assuming my 180 thermostat is open. If I were using a 160 it still would be open and it still would be running at that 189-190 temp. The fan settings are going to kick on at preset temps regardless of either thermostats. Having fans come on sooner would reduce engine temps to a lower temp, but I don't think it would be below the engine temp that is created just by the engine running. If you removed all the heat from the engine to below the thermostat opening, it would seem that it would not be a very good running engine. I don't know????
The listed temp is when the thermostat begins to open. It doesn't click open to 100% at exactly the listed temp.
Best power is made with cold coolant and hot oil. How you get there is up to you, I guess.
Better emissions are had with warmer coolant temps, though. So it all depends on what you want to do, your goal.....
The listed temp is when the thermostat begins to open. It doesn't click open to 100% at exactly the listed temp.
Best power is made with cold coolant and hot oil. How you get there is up to you, I guess.
Better emissions are had with warmer coolant temps, though. So it all depends on what you want to do, your goal.....
Well, what you say is technically correct, my contention is cold coolant reduces the IAT which means a denser air charge into the cylinder which means more air & fuel for combustion, so more power.
You and I debated this a while back and perhaps my point was not clear. The point I was trying to make was simply a lower coolant temp does not directly translate to more power. More power comes from more air and fuel enters the cylinder as a result of cooler heads and intake track. Thus, if you can lower the IAT, you should be able to accomplish the same thing.
Regarding the 160° thermostat, my issue was I saw temps swings of 40°. I had one in my 2005 LS2 that had CNC heads, cam, headers, etc.... what I found was it would run 178-180° on the highway but still reach the low 200° in stop & go traffic on a hot day. Pushed hard on a hot day, I would see the low 220° or no different from the stock 'stat.
I did increase the fans duty cycle, and it help a little but temp swings were still there on the highway. I concluded all the 160° did was decrease the minimum temp it would run on the highway. Because once it was fully open, so was the stock 'stat so it was up to the radiator and fans from then on.
I put in a new 186° from Stant and it ran consistently at 200-205°.
Did the 160° make more power under certain conditions ? Perhaps. But I in my opinion, a stock 'stat will keep it consistently in the low 200° area not have the big swings. If the goal is to maximize power and one believes the 160° 'stat helps, then be my guest.
Well, what you say is technically correct, my contention is cold coolant reduces the IAT which means a denser air charge into the cylinder which means more air & fuel for combustion, so more power.
You and I debated this a while back and perhaps my point was not clear. The point I was trying to make was simply a lower coolant temp does not directly translate to more power. More power comes from more air and fuel enters the cylinder as a result of cooler heads and intake track. Thus, if you can lower the IAT, you should be able to accomplish the same thing.
Regarding the 160° thermostat, my issue was I saw temps swings of 40°. I had one in my 2005 LS2 that had CNC heads, cam, headers, etc.... what I found was it would run 178-180° on the highway but still reach the low 200° in stop & go traffic on a hot day. Pushed hard on a hot day, I would see the low 220° or no different from the stock 'stat.
I did increase the fans duty cycle, and it help a little but temp swings were still there on the highway. I concluded all the 160° did was decrease the minimum temp it would run on the highway. Because once it was fully open, so was the stock 'stat so it was up to the radiator and fans from then on.
I put in a new 186° from Stant and it ran consistently at 200-205°.
Did the 160° make more power under certain conditions ? Perhaps. But I in my opinion, a stock 'stat will keep it consistently in the low 200° area not have the big swings. If the goal is to maximize power and one believes the 160° 'stat helps, then be my guest.
That's why they make bigger radiators and have for 75 years.....one may only be surprised by the functions of a system when he doesn't understand a system.
Sort of like saying coolant doesn't make power. If you start from the ground floor, you realize that engines pump air and use fuel as a catalyst to light the oxygen in the air. Of course coolant doesn't make power..... (lol) in fact, coolant in the combustion chamber is not a great idea.
The issue is the heat byproduct of friction and combustion. Coolant (cooling system) mitigates this byproduct and allows the engine to operate longer while doing more work.
Over the last 100 years people (the inventors of the engine) have come to realize that heat is the enemy. Cooler coolant temps were a thing long before computers and sensors altered the mixture and the firing events. Whether we debated this or not doesn't mean there are two sides to the issue. There is one.
If you have a crappy cooling system and change one thing, it probably won't do a lot of good. Common sense tells us that you need to build to a goal....if it is constant running temps of 180, you need a thermostat much lower and also a system (radiator, etc) that will support that goal. It's no different than sticking in a big cam that won't idle because it didn't get a proper tune or installing 345 tires on a 9 inch wheel. You're doing it wrong.
My intention is absolutely to replace the radiator along with the thermostat when both are available. Doing one (always the cheap one, thermostat) is never the proper solution. If you want to make 1000 HP you don't just spray a 500 shot. You build a system.
The issue isn't the 160 thermostat, it's purely user error. An engineering mistake.
Why wouldn't you get a radiator as well is the question....
A few of you good folks must have spotted other articles that I have done either in print or online about this subject. At the request of a few folks here I am putting this up for what it's worth and expanding some information about this as well. The argument is about running 160 degree thermostats and the good and/or bad results. Now keep in mind that thermostats have absolutely NO effect on your systems ability to cool, simply a regulator of the range it operates in. So, if you think a 160 will cure an engine running at 220 with a 180 thermostat...forgetaboutit! This is not about cooling capacity at all.
The graph to follow illustrates the importance of how critical optimum coolant temperature is to the longevity and performance your engine. Cooler water makes horsepower and warmer water minimizes engine cylinder and bearing wear...or so it's thought, but only to their own limits and ranges. There is a range where both optimum performance as well as minimal wear share similar characteristics. That number lies in the 175-180 degree range as shown by the overlap in the chart which correspondingly requires a 180 degree thermostat. FWIW, higher operating temperatures of today's engines are to fight combustion by-products and pollution. Also, engine oils are designed to work over a specific temperature range with optimum performance starting at temperatures that require the coolant to be the very same 175ish range. And don't forget the moisture issue. Have you ever seen water vapor coming from your tailpipes? Sure..and the very same thing happens INSIDE your engine. Your engine forms moisture inside when it cools and condensates on the walls of the inside. This moisture the is washed down into the oil when started and then awaits vaporization by internal temperatures rising enough to bring the moisture to the appropriate corrected vapor point (boiling). If enough moisture is left behind it combines with combustion byproducts to form acids that become dissolved in the oil itself. The oil becomes more acidic as the age of the oil progresses and picks on certain parts eventually. Also moisture will corrode other surfaces. So, it's important to get these engines to a satisfying operating temperature as soon as possible. Usually oil pooling temps are about 30 to 40 degrees higher than the coolant temps. This is a generalized statement and can vary with load and engine design but you can see why you want your oil over 212 degrees to boil out the moisture immediately! A 160 thermostat usually does NOT accomplish this temperature.
Years of research show use of 160 degree thermostats is way too low to be considered for performance or engine longevity. As the chart above illustrates, engine wear increased by DOUBLE at 160, than at 185 degrees. The 160's were invented for and commonly used in older, open loop cooling systems where only 6 pound radiator caps were used, and low 212 degree boiling points were the limit. We know better now.
Many early hot rodders found the 160's to be a smiggin better performing than the 190's, however the in between 180 appears to satisfy both ends of the spectrum. The correct water temperature and thus resulting metal operating temperatures required for the cylinders to achieve a minimum specific temperature in order to allow a fully mixed Air/Fuel charge to combust efficiently is a minimum of 180 degrees coincidentally. If you use 160s be aware that this can have a degrading effect over a time on your engine. I know alot of rodders still using them however to whatever ends they want...and that's okay. Heck, I know guys that run NO thermostat and most of you know that's another book to be covered. I just report what I learn...and you decide what's best for you. I hope this satisfies you information junkies out there.
terrible information. I guess steve jack has never heard of evaporation. you don't need to boil water at 212 to get it to rise as a vapor. what a moron.
and yes, you can easily achieve much hotter oil temps than coolant temps. like I said, you want hot oil and cold coolant. don't you think the oil cooling system will also have a direct affect on the oil temp? did you know the oil coolers also can restrict flow through the coolers until a preset temp? you can always get the oil hot....low coolant temps don't mean low oil temps if you do it right. Steve jack just wasted his time making a chart...guess you bought in.
Russ, you just said you cruised at 175-180 with a 160 thermostat and a stock radiator. then you post some guy (with no link) saying you need a 180 to cruise at 180.....you and I both know that is wrong. your car will always run hotter than the thermostat rating. even you experienced this.
think for yourself. dont rely on some internet unknown think for you. the answer is right in front of you, why search for anything else? you are wasting your time.
build to a goal and under a specific use. your old car was not set up to be raced as coolant temps would rise. all you had was a thermostat. you did step one.....what about the rest?
Well, as you could imagine, I don't agree because I consider all facets of the modification you are endorsing.
It would be good information for you to outline the cost and estimated benefit in terms of power if we changed to a 160° 'stat.
From what you have hinted, there will be cost of a new radiator, tune and installation labor. I am assuming its a stock car otherwise. What additional power/torque have you experienced?
Well, as you could imagine, I don't agree because I consider all facets of the modification you are endorsing.
It would be good information for you to outline the cost and estimated benefit in terms of power if we changed to a 160° 'stat.
From what you have hinted, there will be cost of a new radiator, tune and installation labor. I am assuming its a stock car otherwise. What additional power/torque have you experienced?
Appreciate your input.
considering there is no available thermostat or radiator available today for the C7 the answer is 0.
ask me what coolant temp I want my race car to run. and if your next comment is about the C7 not being a race car, I agree. it's not in factory form. but that doesn't mean some people don't modify them into race cars or even just in that direction.....maybe a street/strip or a road legal track day car, etc.
it's not up to you or I to tell people how they should use their car. and since we don't know how people intend to use their car we also can't say if they should not install any given part. I am not advocating everyone with a C7 install a 160 thermostat, only those who feel they need it. what you are saying is that no one should use one, which is extremely presumptuous.
I am talking about what a 160 thermostat does and you are saying people should not install them. that's not the same thing. I don't pretend to know what people are doing with their cars, I really don't care if someone buys a C7 just to see what it looks like falling from an airplane.
but I can say this without anyone arguing, even you....if you want to run with cooler coolant temps, you need a colder thermostat. if you need more, install a radiator.
of course, I am not sure why one would install only a thermostat.....you drained the coolant already, so put in a radiator too. you are already there, do it right the first time. if you want to cheap out and do only one part of the equation, yes, it probably isn't going to work right. that goes for everything in your life.
While we are waiting on cooler replacement stats, I made my own by modifying the stock one. It consistently runs around 178 degrees +/- a few at idle and cruise. Under full throttle for a 1/4 mile, I get the same peak temps as stock which is it be expected. Another benefit that has not been discussed is the tranny cooler. It is affected by coolant temps. Heat kills automatic transmissions. Cooler tranny means extended life.
Whenever a 175 degree stat becomes available, I will install one.
While we are waiting on cooler replacement stats, I made my own by modifying the stock one. It consistently runs around 178 degrees +/- a few at idle and cruise. Under full throttle for a 1/4 mile, I get the same peak temps as stock which is it be expected. Another benefit that has not been discussed is the tranny cooler. It is affected by coolant temps. Heat kills automatic transmissions. Cooler tranny means extended life.
Whenever a 175 degree stat becomes available, I will install one.
Did you think to check the stock thermo's temp setting. It may surprise you. The stock C5/C6 Thermo's open at 86 deg C/186 deg F. As I said at the beginning of this thread the thermo only sets the floor temp and although some people say their car runs a few degrees cooler at part throttle (low horsepower) once you go to wide open throttle (high horsepower) the significantly higher waste heat production quickly overcomes the the small difference in coolant temp which still ends up at 220 on the first lap. Power difference in a real sense NADA it will not even by noticed.
When I had my 97 I took it to Carlisle and had it dyno'ed. While there I watched 10 different C5s go across the dyno. According to the owner's statements when they told the dyno operator about there car a fair number of those cars had 160 deg thermos. That year each of them got 4 runs. All of them produced the highest power on their 2nd and 3rd runs when coolant temp was in the 200 to 205 degree range. That extra HP was only 6 or 7 more than the other runs. Not enough to notice in the real world but maybe on a dyno.
bill they made more power in spite of higher coolant temps because the oil temp rose, not because the coolant temp rose.......but I bet no one checked that did they.
While we are waiting on cooler replacement stats, I made my own by modifying the stock one. It consistently runs around 178 degrees +/- a few at idle and cruise. Under full throttle for a 1/4 mile, I get the same peak temps as stock which is it be expected. Another benefit that has not been discussed is the tranny cooler. It is affected by coolant temps. Heat kills automatic transmissions. Cooler tranny means extended life.
Whenever a 175 degree stat becomes available, I will install one.
How is your trans hooked up to your coolant system?
bill they made more power in spite of higher coolant temps because the oil temp rose, not because the coolant temp rose.......but I bet no one checked that did they.
Also the Z06 has an additional Trans cooler....Why didnt they add that to the C7 Z51...They know they have trans overheating problems on the 2014...At least on the track !
06-26-2014, 11:04 PM
