Theo Harris

It's official GM is developing a C7 based Cup Car!!!!!

Reliable sources from inside GM have confirmed the development of a C7 Cup Car. GM is officially and with laser focus on Porsche business model, finally breaking the monopoly of the Porsche franchise with enthusiasts around the globe. I was testing our new C7 Z51 at Watkings Glen with the Potomac PCA club couple weeks ago and a retired Audi race driver and owner of a 997 Turbo and a 997 GT2 drove my new C7 Z51 and was happily surprised with how much fun and capable it was to drive it on a fast NASCAR track like the Glen! he said "this is a great and fun ride, I know quite a few guys with deposits on the upcoming C7 Z06 with the Z07 PKG, and I believe it's going to make a lot of Porsche & Ferarri guys cry when it comes out later this year!
Bravo GM and the entire Corvette Team for making an American Muscle Car as good if not better than the best of Europe and a great buy too!

Onward and Upward!

B Stead

Well, the Porsche GT3 Cup Car is a race car while the GT3 showroom-floor car is just a high performance option package.

http://www.caranddriver.com/news/201...-and-info-news

And the Viper Competition Coupe is a race car:

http://www.allpar.com/cars/viper/competition-coupe.html



Basically, all GM needs to do is rename the C7 Z06 as a ZR1 and then come out with a lightweight Z06 track-day car.


Well, the advantage of a race car from the factory is that the roll cage and attachment are designed for the car so that it truly stiffens and strengthens the chassis. And the car is built without street equipment which is a more efficient process than gutting an OEM car. Then the electrical system can be simpler, the plumbing can be simpler, the brake lines can be simpler, and everything is leaner.

How to gut an OEM car ? Swap in this engine:

http://www.jegs.com/p/Chevrolet-Perf...03674/10002/-1

And then since that engine has its own engine controller the C7 ECM and CCM can just be thrown away. Then all street equipment can be removed
.

Theta

I agree with you on the first part about a cup car, but I see you posting this fairly often.

You can not ditch the ECM/TCM and CCM even with a crate motor. The transmissions (both M7 and A6/A8) require those to continue to function.

If you know the detailed inner workings of this car, you'll realize that there's a lot more to it than a crate motor, which is why I have around $30,000 in building mine up instead of just buying a 427 and starting from there...

Just trying to set the record and info straight for you.

B Stead

Well race cars don't use the OEM systems and so the question is how is the manual transmission configured for use with the LS7 crate engine ? The C5 transmission ?

I'll give an example, when the C7 has magnetic shocks then it also has Performance-Traction-Management. The PTM is a combination of stability control with traction control but with the traction control taken to higher levels of torque. But the PTM also interfaces with the electronic limited-slip ! Well, race cars don't depend on the OEM systems to get it right but simply use adjustable parts. And so a racing limited-slip is adjustable and not tied into several other things.

Sure the OEM system has a menu of performance levels but that's not enough. For instance, if the magnetic shocks allowed input of spring rates that would interesting but they don't go that far. Racing shocks are valved for the selected spring rates but also adjustable on top of that
.

Theta

You're talking apples and oranges here... What you're talking about is building a new car, not using what we have. There are a select few of us that are really going to push these into the next realm of displacement, but we have to work with what we have been given.

In order to (re)use what we have on this platform, you need those modules. If you want to replace everything, it's cheaper to build from scratch.

B Stead

The car can't be built from scratch because the chassis is not available. That is the point of the cup car idea except for those wanting an showroom-floor resemblance of a cup car
.

Theta

You're just going in circles now... If you're trying to make me look 'wrong', look for someone else that has time to go back and forth. I deal with facts, and I know a hell of a lot about this platform and what it can do and not do. Past that, I trust the experts to do the work needed to bring out the full potential of the powerplant.

I was politely telling you that your assumption of 'just putting a 427 crate in it', as you've said in numerous threads, doesn't work in this car - the subsystems will not work without the BCM, ECM/TCM, and CCM.

Period.

B Stead

No, I know that you are a tuner that is only interested in working with the OEM systems.

Your responses are typically biased and closed-minded but the context can be understood.

But this is a cup car subject ! The cup car is very, very lean. Even with a roll cage it still has a good percentage of weight reduction
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Theta

Are you serious? I'm not a tuner, and how the hell am I biased? I'm an end-user that is an early adopter. Seriously, what are you on?

Yes, by helping everyone on the forum and providing an assload of information, I'm closed-minded.

You are the type of person that this forum would be better off without. Perhaps you don't like being confronted when you don't know what in the hell you're talking about.

So, that's fine - lash out at what you don't understand and make personal attacks... See where that gets you.

Theta

Nice edit... You started the misinformation, then started to insult. All you, buddy. All you.

But that's fine. Just put a 427 in it, right? What do I know, anyway - I'm a 'biased tuner'...

B Stead

The idea was to build your own cup car.

And there are lots of race car builds and a lot of people that know how to build race cars.

You simply work with the OEM systems and won't admit or allow anything else
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Theta

Let's break this down. You said:

I corrected you with:

You responded with:

At which point I said:

Lastly, before you got rude, you said:


Now, let's restart here - your assertion was that an OEM car could be made INTO a cup car by removing the subsystems and swapping in a crate motor. Normally, I'd agree with you - the C6 was actually able to do that. The C7 is fundamentally different in that it uses all of the systems to handle the 'extras' built into the transmission, suspension, etc. as you know.

Now, I understand where you're coming from, but you still were missing where I was coming from. Instead of clarifying, you went for a personal attack.

I understand that you're talking about what they could do, but the reality of your text showed an impossibility that I pointed out.

Past that, I'm upset that you accused me of something that's not only illogical, it's just beyond the truth. How am I biased and/or a tuner? Seriously, that doesn't even make sense.

My job here is to spread truthful information. I was trying (politely) to correct you with regard to your suggestion made in several threads of just using a crate motor in the C7 and 'throwing out the other modules'. It's neither feasible nor possible with the way the platform is made.

If that truth is what set you off, then there is no reason to get personal over it. This is exactly the type of attitude this forum doesn't need. I would appreciate an apology, but I somehow doubt I'll receive one as everybody has to be 'right' these days.

Screw it... sometimes it's just not worth the effort to try and help people. What a sad reality this section is at times.

Mhart27

Theta

The original idea of this thread had nothing to do with that.

I'm also pretty sure that my build is proof that I'm open to far more than the OEM setup... In fact, I'll be the first person here with a completely custom setup outside of a shop car. But I'm closed minded and only work with OEM.....

Your choice of person to argue with is fairly poor when you're not 'winning' on any front with your continued posts.

If all you have is excuses and personal attacks, either apologize or slink away. You're beaten on this one.

dvandentop

hmm will be looking forward to press release

B Stead

I said a cup car was a race car from the factory.

I then said that a cup car had a good roll cage but avoided gutting an OEM car.

Then I very smoothly flowed to the idea of gutting an OEM car and building your own race car.

Later I said that a cup car was very lean and had a good percentage of weight reduction even with a full roll cage.

I never forgot that the subject was a subject of a cup car
.

Theta

How can I reason with this? I literally walked you through verbatim what was written, and you still can't explain:

a) why you made a personal attack that was untrue, and
b) how you continue to arrive at a conclusion that is faulty regarding an engine swap on the C7 platform (please don't make me list all of the posts you've said it in, I've counted over a half-dozen so far).

In all seriousness, is English your first language? That's not an insult, my wife works in ESL - I'm wondering if we're having some sort of disconnect that I'm not seeing.

Theta

Bingo, and there's where this began. That specific assumption was flawed/incorrect (gutting an OEM by way of powerplantplant exchange), and I politely pointed that out. Where you took it after that was just uncalled for.

I don't have a problem with any of your other assertions (other than the personal attacks, which will not be tolerated).

B Stead

There are plenty of books on race car builds.

When a race car is built from an OEM car then all the OEM wiring is pulled out. And nothing is mapped as the car is just re-wired as a race car build. Well, that's how it was done before ECM's. Now that we have ECM's there would have to either be a race part for a leaner ECM or there would have to be an engine going in that doesn't require the OEM ECM.

The brake lines are pulled out since a racing master cylinder has a bias-bar adjustment and doesn't fit with the OEM system.

You can't build a car from a near bare chassis with a crate engine that has its own engine controller ?

Go search the web for the Viper Competition Coupe and see what that looks like.

You're in a cup car subject, a cup car is a race car, but you are saying only an OEM street car is possible.


And there are people here that would like to have a race car for use as a track day car
.

Theta

You've failed to do any research on who you're continuing to argue with, and this is going to be my last post because you're a wall when it comes to having a meaningful conversation.

I have two race cars, I have driven professionally, and have built several race cars. The C7 build is just for fun, but we'll leave that one aside as you've already ignored that one.

The only way you could possibly make your assumption work in this case (or the more than half-dozen other times you've mentioned this same 'recommendation') is to remove the engine, torque tube, transmission, exhaust system, full suspension, harnesses, etc. and start with a bare metal shell for $60,000.

You yourself stated:

In this case, you're contradicting yourself, as this is exactly what you're suggesting. There's nothing you could (or would want to) use from the OEM state. So, you're purchasing that shell you claimed didn't exist.

Herein lies the rub - When you repeatedly suggest this option to people, it's infuriating, because you truly believe that you can get away with running the car as it sits with a crate swap. You've spouted this off to a half-dozen people, and every time I cringe.

You've been an incredibly rude poster in this thread, as many of your posts generally are. Next time, perhaps look more into what you're suggesting, or approach it in a more sensible manner. You've found what you believe to be some sort of wiggle room here to salvage your argument, but you've been left looking foolish.

The intention of the thread was regarding a production cup car, not someone spending $60,000 on an OE shell and going from there - that's senseless. You felt trapped and lashed out, which was again uncalled for.

Half of what you type we can't understand, but let's go back to the very first 'point' you tried to make, which had little to do with an actual official GM announcement:

In your world, that's all it takes to make a cup car. You think GM should rename the Z06 to the ZR1, then make a lighter Z06... I can't even make it past that part without wondering what's going on in your thought process... But, let's tread past that - you mention that you can swap the crate motor into the OEM car and discard all of the modules and go from there. You fail to mention throwing away everything else I mentioned earlier and starting with a shell.

I really don't think you're grasping any of this, or you wouldn't still be arguing a point that's long-since dead - but your use of the edit button is quite amusing. Now please, do resort to spouting another meaningless and unfounded insult - it makes it that much easier for me to have you removed for continued violation of the rules.