BSER

I have a 65 Chevelle pro-touring car, lots of power 600+, racing level brake system and suspension, sticky (street legal)rubber.

I go to the track 3 or 4 times a year. I run with the intermediate group most of the time and pass many of the drivers in this group. Sometimes I go out with the advance group but they are mainly vettes, porches, vipers and dedicated track cars, I am the one getting passed in this group. I run the occasional autocross and have won my class several times.

The reason I focus on brakes is because I have had issues in the past (really not fun) which is why I have a high end hydro boost brake system on the car now.

This is my first Vette, in fact this is the first sports car that I did not build myself. I know intimately every strength and weakness in my cars. That will not be the case with my C7. That is why I am asking advice from those with experience.

ticat928

The DSUNO pads for rear:

http://www.essexparts.com/shop/brake-pads/frp3137z.html


Essex Designed AP Racing Competition Brake Kit:

http://www.essexparts.com/shop/compl...te-bundle.html

hankman

Is this an auto or M7 ?

tblu92

A cold beer and a vicodin--

Zajac

I read through all the Essex stuff on brakes and I think the better calipers and better rotors are the real solution to track day brake performance and it may be best to bite the bullet on pricing early.

I, for one, was very disappointed to find that for a more track oriented C7 Z51, with improved Z51 shocks, possible Mag Ride option, E-Diff, dry sump, and cooling ducts, that the brakes would have received more upgrade modifications than the afore-mentioned stuff..

Lets face it, a very slightly greater swept area and slightly better caliper leverage due to 1" larger dia rotors and "funky" rotor rings and cooling ducts just doesn't cut it. 19" wheels scream for 14" rotors and caliper brackets but it is tough to argue with "corporate bean counters".

Okay...I am a "whiner"

ticat928

No.
Many forum members had similar observations backed up by experience.

https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums/c7-tech-performance/3492857-my-first-day-on-the-track-with-the-c7-the-good-the-bad-and-the-ugly.html

15C7Z51

I used two 25' x 2" roles (one each side) only cut off about 18" because I could not reach in any further to install- was just up on ramps- tight-tight-tight but got it done. Secured with 3" SS hose clamps each end and middle.

descartesfool

Great pictures. That is exactly what I will be doing to mine. I bought 50' of DEI Titanium wrap, so I will just cut it into 2 pieces and give it a wrap. Thx.

axr6

I am surprised that noone is suggesting more engine oil cooling. Also, not certain that the Z51, besides having transmission cooling, has any more engine oil cooling than my BASE model?

For my Base model 5 minutes of hard canyon driving in 2nd and 3rd gears with RPMs not falling below 4000, the engine oil temps were already hitting 280-290F. I actually had to back off to prevent the temps from going into the red zone. The car definitely needs an effective engine oil cooler BEFORE transmission cooling. In the same period my transmission temps were not even half way up the scale. My water temps were a good 220F.

Remember recently a pro tester (from Edmunds ?) observing the very same things about temps going through the roof while driving a Z51 over some tight canyon roads, mostly in 2nd and 3 gears.

11B250

I don't really see people complain about this. the non z51 models have an air deflector in the center which might prevent air efficiently hitting the small oil cooler thing by the oil pan. Not sure if you have base or not, but that could be something?



that being said, this sounds like alot of work (going street to track) almost makes me think I should have never sold my C5 Z06, and turn that thing into a track car lol

axr6

Thanks, I do have a base and I will check out and potentially remove the center air dam. I didn't realize that the Z51 does not have that center air dam. Indeed, that could deflect air from that small oil cooler. Hope it makes a difference as those kinds of oil coolers tend to be minimally effective. A good, double-pass cooler is generally needed for tracking cars.

15C7Z51

DEI unravels easily. During install I used painters tape on the end so it wouldn't unravel during wrapping. At the ends you should fold over about 1" so the wrap doesn't unravel - above the axle access is tough and I could not get good access to hold wrap, fold, clamp and tighten. To get the 1" fold over to stay- I cut to length and then used a length of DEI "thread/strand" to sew the 1" fold in place- worked well.

descartesfool

The oil cooler is not cooled much by air flowing over it, it is cooled by the coolant from the radiator flowing through it. For additional oil cooling one would really need more coolant flow through the fluid to fluid OEM oil cooler or a bigger oil cooler or an additional air to fluid cooler added in front of the radiator and plumbed into the oil pump circuit to add to the OEM fluid to fluid cooler. No such solution I know of at the moment for the LT1. A more efficient rad might keep the coolant temps lower and thus the oil temp lower. I did not see my oil temps in the red, but my Z51 has the complete dry-sump system which is very different system than the base oil system. Not sure how it changes cooling effectiveness.

quick04Z06

Do DeWitts or Ron Davis make an upgraded dual core radiator/oil cooler for this application like is available for the C5Z?

andoneward

This looks like a good section for my question. I tracked my base 2014 in august and had a great time doing it but I noticed that I had a couple blue rings on my rotors but did not notice any change in performance throughout the day. So, I'm regretting not getting the Z51 package since I convinced myself I wasn't going to track and now I am hooked.

Here is my question: I am upgrading my brakes like FYREANT is on his base and I've ordered the cooling ducts and deflectors but I'm still trying to make a decision on the brakes. A BBK costs quite a bit but I only plan on going to the track a few times a year in ATL, Talledega, and Barber. I can only stomach about 15-20 minutes before needing to give my vestibular/digestive system an opportunity to recover which in turn gives opportunities for the car to cool down too.

I'm thinking of keeping the stock calibers and upgrading to some nice slotted rotors and swap out the pads for track days. I also have some TSW wheels coming to have the confidence in the forged wheels.

Am I on track? (pun absolutely intended!)

Zajac

1. You are going for TSW wheels which I ASSUME are 19/20 to clear the approx 1" bigger dia FRONT Z51 brakes/rotors.

2. Rear calipers and rear rotor diameters are the same for base and Z51.

3. Bigger brakes, especially front brakes, will help a lot. But I have seen on this forum that Z51 calipers go for about $900 and you only get a 1" larger dia front rotors and no changes for rear calipers or rear rotor diameter. 1" bigger dia is okay but no huge improvement IMHO. If you think Z51 rotor rings are a big help, you are mistaken (stupid GM afterthought).

4. Why not go to 14.25" dia x 1.25 thk front rotors vs 11.3 stock for about $2K and leave the rear base calipers/rotors as is? A Wilwood front big brake setup with calipers/rotors for the C7 are about $2k. Beats BBK prices.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2014-2015-C7-Corvette-Wilwood-AERO6-Front-Big-Brake-Kit-Stingray-Z06-Z51-/131363713435?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item1e95e3319b&vxp=mtr
5. Adding the cooling ducts is a big help.

descartesfool

My 18" C5Z06 wheels clear the Z51 brakes easily on all four corners. No need for 19/20" to clear Z51 brakes.

VThokies

What was the ambient temps that day in the canyon? I was on the track this weekend, 75 degrees, 20 minute sessions, and oil temps were right around 250 degrees in my Z51. So maybe there is a difference in oil cooling from base to Z51?

15C7Z51

The external dry sump tank on the Z51 along with an additional ~ 3 Qts of oil will keep oil temps in check vs base

JRitt@essex

Gents,
I see some discussion of our Essex/AP Racing brake parts being kicked around here. Here's my take on some brake considerations for HPDE (High Performance Drivers Education), Time Trial, etc. This post isn't geared specifically towards the OP, since he seems to have a good deal of track experience. It is more for novices running a C7, of which there seems to be a fair number. I'll follow-up this preface with a more specific brake upgrade path for the C7 as well.

Much of what is written below is borrowed from an article I wrote on brake pad selection, and a brake guide I wrote for a different forum. I believe it is important so I'm including it here.

One more item of interest would be an article I wrote on the track-worthiness of the C7 Z51 brakes when we first received our test car:
C7 Stingray Brake Analysis...are they track worthy?

One of the most interesting aspects of HPDE is the wide range of speeds and driver ability across run groups. As such, it's difficult to recommend a blanket brake solution for a C7 Stingray driven at an HPDE. As more and more people modify and drive these cars on tracks, we'll begin to get a better idea of what the typical and maximum brake demands will be. After countless discussions with customers on this topic over the years, I believe there a few key considerations when upgrading your brakes for an HPDE or Time Trial: Driver experience, track layout, vehicle configuration/modification, and tire choice. A careful examination of these factors in your personal situation should help guide you towards an acceptable brake solution. Keep in mind that all of these factors are related, and cannot be considered in isolation from one another.

Driver experience
If you've never driven anywhere but the street, your first couple of trips to the track will most likely not tax your brake system too heavily, right? Not exactly. You being a complete track newbie won't necessarily protect your stock brakes from near total destruction. Novice drivers may be easier on the brakes because their corner exit speeds are lower, their terminal speeds entering brake zones are therefore lower, and there's less kinetic energy being transferred into heat during a given stop. That said, novice track drivers also tend to stab wildly at the brakes, stay on the brakes too long, oscillate between on and off brake, and do all sorts of other things one would never expect! Novices also tend to drive with stability control turned on, which can lead to increased brake wear, particularly on the rear of the car. The end result can be some serious brake punishment. It's impossible to say that a novice driver will be fine on stock brake components based on track experience alone.

Track layout
Long straights followed by tight turns mean your car is decelerating from a very high speed to a very low speed, creating a high energy stop. The distance between stops will also impact the heat retained in your brakes. If a particular track layout has a steady succession of medium straights and tight turns, your brakes don't have much time to cool between stops. That means heat will continually build. Flowing tracks with long sweepers are much easier on brakes (think Willow Springs (big track)). Look closely at the track(s) you'll be driving to determine how demanding they will be on your brakes.

Vehicle configuration/modification
All else held equal, more massive, faster cars place a greater strain on the brake system in a brake zone. An Audi Allroad will require a much larger rotor as a heat sink than a Miata. The C7 Stingray falls somewhere between those two. If you strip 200lbs. out of your car (easier to accelerate), have a quality coilover system (higher cornering speeds), and add 40hp (greater acceleration), you're placing less demand on your brakes in terms of mass, but you'll need to slow down from higher speeds when entering turns.

Tire choice
Tire choice is one of the single greatest factors in determining which brake setup will work for you on the track. The stickier the tire, the more brake you can use, and the more heat you will generate. More grip = more heat. If you're running lower grip OEM, or if it rains at an event, you won't be able to generate as much grip, and you won't tax your brakes as much.

So where does all of that leave us when upgrading your brakes for an HPDE or Time Trial? The critical point is, every modification you make to your car and the nut behind the wheel will change the demands on your brake system, and you must adjust accordingly. Just because you used a particular brake pad before, doesn't mean it will work again after you've installed your supercharger and Hoosiers. Chances are that after your 25th event, you'll be taxing your brakes very differently than you did during your first event. You'll be hitting higher speeds, entering and exiting corners faster and in a different way, and your car will likely have more grip and power than it did when you started (you'll also be much poorer, but likely happier ). If you typically run Limerock (a short track without many big braking zones), but decide to make a trip to Road America (a crazy fast track with huge brake demands), you need to reconsider how your brakes will be taxed. You must constantly evaluate the overall condition of your brake system, and not be afraid to try new brake setups as both you and your car evolve.

If you want to play it safe and not risk damage to the major components of your brake system, don't EVER drive an OEM pad on a road course. It may be more convenient and seem economical to run stock pads, but it will cost you time and money in the long run. There's also not much worse than wasted track time. When you're sitting in the pits watching your buddy rip down the front straight, and your stock pads are a steaming pile of dust lying inside your wheels, you'll be wishing you spent a couple hundred bucks and took the hour on Friday night to change your pads and bleed your fluid.

Brake Ducts
Generally speaking, I typically recommend brake ducts fairly early in the brake upgrade process. Forcing air into the center of the discs pays dividends in lowering the overall system temperatures. The cooling air lowers the disc temp, which lowers the pad temp, which lowers the heat transferring into the caliper pistons, which lowers the brake fluid temps, and so on. Also, when the discs are running cooler, less heat radiates to your wheel bearings, suspension ball joints, etc. Ultimately, keeping brake temps down helps to prevent the degradation of other nearby components...not just the brakes.

In some cases, ducts are a relatively inexpensive solution that can prevent you from having to buy a more expensive solution (complete big brake kit). That said, they must be designed and implemented properly to be of any real use! A proper duct setup has an air inlet port that dumps air directly into the inside of the disc. That is the key. The air has nowhere else to go but into the disc vanes, where it can be drawn through and provide cooling. Spraying cooling air in the general direction of the disc (like the OEM C7 Stingray ‘air guides’) is typically not very productive, and at times, it can actually be counterproductive! The internal vanes of a properly designed racing disc are designed to pump air like a fan blade. Heat is drawn out as the cooling air enters and flows along the vanes which are radiating heat. The heat is being evacuated evenly from both sides of the disc face. If you dump cooling air directly onto the inner disc face, rather than letting the vanes do their job, you’re creating a temperature differential on the inner vs. outer disc face. Temperature differentials across a disc create stress, which leads to disc cracking and deformation.

I won’t go too in-depth on this part, but managing ducts is also important. If you watch pro racing, you’ll see that on some tracks the brake duct inlets on the front of the car are completely open, while on others they are closed or partially blocked. The goal is to maintain as close to a constant temperature in the brake discs as possible. Wild temperature swings create stress and cracking as the metal expands and contracts. A pyrometer and brake disc temperature paint can be very useful in determining the temps that your discs are reaching.

Is a Big Brake Kit Really Necessary?
When a new car comes out there is always a lot of discussion on whether or not a big brake kit is needed for taking that particular car on the track. Whether or not you need a big brake kit will depend on all of the factors I listed above in the usage environment section. It has already been proven that some drivers, in some cars, on some tracks will exceed the limits of the C7 Stingray brake (base or Z51) system fairly easily.

Need and want are two different things however, and there are a lot of benefits to going with a big brake kit if you plan to keep your car and track it over the next couple of years. Check out this article I wrote on big brake system benefits you may not have considered. It talks about things like long-term running costs, wasted track time, confidence in the car, etc. At first glance, a big brake just seems like a big up-front expense. Once you think it through though, it makes a whole lot more sense. I'd say about 96% of my big brake kit customers who track their cars tell me, "I wish I had done this a long time ago."

From a financial perspective, if you're tracking your car heavily, a top quality front BBK in the is almost a no-brainer. You buy it...beat it to death for the years you own the car, and will likely get at minimum 60% of what you paid for it back on the used market when you sell the car. You can then drop your OEM brakes back on the car when you sell it, and they won't be thrashed. Brakes will be something you don't have to think or worry about during your years of tracking the car. You'll always have a good pedal, no heat issues, and total confidence in your brakes.

The alternative is throwing OEM replacement parts on the car far more frequently. The OEM replacements burn up, and you get no return on them. You throw away the dead metal bits and start over every time. You also don't have worry-free brakes during that time period. You'll blow more time prepping, bleeding, swapping pads, and generally getting filthy at the track.

My estimate is that the average guy who tracks his car regularly will save enough money in two seasons to completely pay off a quality front big brake system. That doesn't even include all the intangible costs of time and potential problems. That's just straight savings on pads, discs, fluid, and resale value. The lengthy list of system benefits is just gravy.