village idiot

Your z06 or Z51?

I dont doubt a heavier and +200 hp version of my car on wider R compounds could overwhelm the Z06 brakes. I'm wondering if a Z51 would overwhelm the Z06 brakes.

MindBend

I suspect that it will, just take longer.
Again, I suspect that the track and driver will have more to do with it though.

X25

Stock material is good and will not let you down, but it will self-sacrifice at high temps; you'd be wasting them. You should also note race pads usually provide much higher bite.

Suns_PSD

I've never been able to get my brakes to hold up on my C6 at the track. As a result I just brake softly.

I have decent sticky tires, Z06 aftermarket brakes with cooling ducts, and about 500 rwhp on a base C6.

BEZ06

NO!!! Absolutely not!!

If a driver had never been on a track before, the street pads might work for a session or two. But after that, as they start to figure out the car, the track, and their own capabilities and increase speed and braking effort, the street pads just WILL NOT WORK!!!

• "SPONGY" - A spongy brake pedal is from overheating the brake fluid, and when it boils the pedal will go to the floor with little or no braking.
  
  
• "PAD FADE" - Pad fade or green fade is when the operating temperature of the brake pad compound is exceeded. You'll have a firm pedal, but very little braking.

Take a look at the Carbotech site where you can see the operating temp range of the various compounds:

http://www.ctbrakes.com/brake-compounds.asp

The Carbotech 1521 is a great street pad - excellent braking and NO DUST!! However, you can see that its operating temp range is "ambient and goes up to 800°F (426°C+)". You'll run out of brakes real quick on the track because you'll heat them up to higher than 800° real quickly.

You need at least the XP12 up front, and our Carbotech forum vendor recommends the XP20. The XP10 is a good compound for the rear. I ran XP12/10 front/rear on my C6 Z06 with excellent results. I also like the Hawk DTC70/60 compounds.

You can see in their info that the XP12 & 20 have a high operating temp of more than 1000° greater than the 1521 street pads.

Also, you can see that the lower end of the temp range for the XP12 & 20 is WAY above ambient temp. They ARE NOT suitable for street driving!!! You have to warm them up before they get up into their adhesive friction temp range. At lower temps your in the abrasive friction zone, and you'll just be grinding your rotors away and not getting their most effective braking.

Bottom line:

• You need to run street pads on the street
  
  
• You must run track pads on the track

The Carbotechs are good because when you swap from your XP track pads back to the street 1521 pads (or street to track), the compounds have similar formulations and you don't need to swap rotors and rebed pads - just swap pads and go!!

Adam@Amp'dAutosport.com

village idiot

I've run XP8 on the street and track on the C6- they're perfectly adequate for street tires, even with a weaker braking system and virtually no cooling on 1 piece rotors and etc. I don't think a street car needs to go up to XP12

i was hoping to squeak by on an aggressive street pad. Some of them have decent operating temps.

As an aside, honestly, the XP8 was fine on the street. About as much brake dust as my Z51 pads and a little noise, but nothing unbearable. The real problem was they ATE rotors. 15k miles and rotors needed replacing. 25k and there was probably a 1/8" groove eaten out of them.

I'm really not a fan of running different front/rear pads unless you messed with tire sizes or something along those lines. I could definitely feel the rear not braking hard enough when I went XP10 front and XP8 rear on a stock car. They are proportioned from the factory and suddenly you are weakening the rear.

BEZ06

Here's the temp zone for the XP8 from their site: "Carbotech™ XP8™A high torque brake compound with a wide operating temperature range of 200°F-1250°F+ (93°C to 676°C+)".

On the street you're not effectively getting the XP8 pads up into their minimum operating range - and that means you'll be getting abrasive friction, which grinds down the rotor.

Read this StopTech White Paper Bulletin about brakes where they discuss adhesive and abrasive friction:

http://stoptech.com/technical-suppor...ake-pad-bed-in


You say "they're perfectly adequate for street tires". Yeah - on a Miata!! We've got a heavy car!!!

You're correct that the tires are what does braking, cornering, and acceleration. The tires provide the traction, and your brakes can only stop if you have good traction. However, the "street tires" that come on a Vette from the factory are VERY GOOD TRACK TIRES!!! Spring Mountain runs the PSS on all their Corvettes.

When you brake, you throw the weight of the car forward onto the front wheels. Yes, the brake bias is sort of "proportioned from the factory". It's not a fixed ratio - we have dynamic bias, where the tires will brake to whatever level is required. With the weight of the car going onto the front wheels during braking, the rear wheels will not be braking as hard - therefore the rear brakes don't get up to the same temperature as the front brakes. That's why you need a rear pad that will operate effectively at the lower temps they will experience.

Take a look at the picture below:




In that picture you can see the front brake glowing, but not the rear brake. That's exactly why you need the XP12 or XP20 up front, and the XP10 with a lower temp operating range in the rear.

We have pretty heavy cars. We definitely need the XP12 or XP20 up front!! Take a look at this info - I think this an older FAQ that doesn't even have the XP20 mentioned. In it you can see that they have weights in the various compound recommendations - the heavier the car, the higher # compound should be used:

http://www.ctbrakes.com/faqanswers.html


You can see in there that:
and
So....my C6 Z06 weighed about 3200 lbs, my ZR1 is about 3400 lbs, and my C7 Z06/Z07 weighs 3542 with full fuel, and I'm sure a non-Z07 will weigh a similar amount. With the weight our cars weigh, we DEFINITELY need more than the XP8.

And we need a pad compound for the rear that will work in a slightly lower temp operating range than the front pads.

The Carbotech XP12 or XP20 is a great front pad for the track, and the XP10 has a great temp range for the rear. And that goes when using our OE PSS or SC2 tires - they are very good track tires and will provide enough traction during braking that you need those compounds.

Any of the track pads will not normally be up in their proper operating temp range when driven on the street, and because of that you will be getting abrasive friction from them - and that will grind down your rotors.

When driving on the street you need a street pad compound that will give good adhesive friction at ambient temperature.

.

village idiot

I agree with you regarding race pads on the street- it's not the noise or the dust, it's that they just kill your rotors (as you said, because they don't warm up).

I get that the front carries more load. Lol, I used to literally design brake systems. But they're proportioned from the factory for that. Otherwise we'd all probably be dead When you effectively add more bias to the front, there better be a good reason (weigh reduction in the rear, weight addition in the front, bigger front tires, etc).

PSS are not good track tires. I can easily overheat them in 3-4 laps, probably less. They're street tires, albeit good street tires, but they're not track tires. I've never driven a single street tire that could last even half a session.

I really don't think anything higher than XP10 is a good idea on street tires at the track. Even the XP10 was a little hard to modulate on street tires.

My track miata just runs street brake pads with r-comp tires. It's just fine.

BEZ06

Wow!! We've got very different experiences with the PSS!!

I used to run Hoosiers on my C6 Z06, but decided to just run street tires - and I always run OE runflats. I ran the OE Goodyears, but didn't like them much, but when the Michelin Pilot Sports came along I used them and liked them a lot. And that was usually with XP12 pads up front, XP10 in the back - sometimes Hawk DTC70/60. My C6 Z06 was slightly less than 3200 lbs, but I would not have even thought of running XP10 pads up front.

On my ZR1 I ran both the old Pilot Sports and the Sport Cups - and they were excellent tires on the street and the track.

I've only been to two track events so far with my C7 Z06. It's a Z07, but I have several sets of OE wheels and tires. For my first event I ran a set of the Pilot Super Sports, and I found them to be an outstanding tire!! I ran the 2-day NCM event at VIR the end of June on them, and I found them to be very good during the 8 sessions I drove them - never giving any problem at all after 3 or 4 laps like you experienced. I was, however, feeling out the car and getting used to all the various modes of PTM. In Sport 1 I was only running about 2:12 or 2:13 laps - not sub 2 minute like a couple of forum members are doing. But I found the tires to actually be a fantastic track tire, with no drop off in performance at all over 25 minute sessions. Once warmed up, I could brake really aggressively and not outbrake them - and that's with the carbon ceramic brakes on my Z07.

I switched to a set of Sport Cup 2 tires for an event on the Rolex24 roadcourse at Daytona the beginning of Oct, and of course I found them to be outstanding. I had no problem at all running 30 minute sessions. Once I took it easy on them for a lap or two to get them warmed up, they held up great for 30 minute sessions - 12 sessions over 3 days.

So....I guess you're just running a lot harder than I am. I'm not racing, just instructing and running in advanced HPDE groups, so just like the Corvette Driving School at Spring Mountain, I find the PSS to be a great tire for HPDE type track events.

.

sslider02

It is interesting to hear about other people's opinions based on their experiences. I just had my 1st track day in almost 6 years, with a newly acquired C7 Z06, with Super Sports and fresh Dot4 Brake fluid, with STREET pads, and the street pads held up well, except I did notice a lot of smoke out of the right front wheel after pitting after the 3rd session, but absolutely no brake fade after 20 minutes of heavy duty, so my opinion is the brake fluid is the weak link, not the pads, IF and ONLY if you are on street tires and not R Compounds or slicks. IF you go to sticky tires, then you MUST upgrade your pads and bleed fluid before every track day. While my last 3 track cars have been Z06's, my 1st track day was with a 2002 Camaro SS. For the 1st time in my life, I learned on this day, how stopping was more important than accelerating, after I boiled my fluid. I knew nothing at that time, so I took my car to a reputable brake shop, and they installed ceramic pads and changed my brake fluid, and my next track day was so much worse. I learned that day in 2003, ceramic pads were crap with iron rotors. From that day forward, I learned about brakes. I have never let anyone touch my brakes on any of my cars since that day. I learned my 2007 Z06 with iron rotors with Hawk 70sfront/60's rear with slicks were absolute utopia and I could out brake anything on the track, even fully track prepped Miatas. And I ran faster lap times then, compared to my more expensive 2011 Z06 with the big brake kit (ceramic rotors/street and track capable that I never changed pads on) . So life is full of compromises. Now I just acquired a C7 Z06, and ran a baseline yesterday at High Plains on Mich Super Sports, and will now shift to race pads, R Compounds, and a track alignment, and will see the improvement in lap times. My main point is, in my opinion, while brake fluid and pads are both critically important, brake fluid is more important than brake pads, with a 20 minute session, if you are on street tires, so if you only track your car once or twice a year, I think you will be fine on an aggressive street pad, instead of doing all the track prep that everyone does to shave off a few seconds at the track. BUT if you go to the track just a day or two a year, fresh brake fluid every year is your best investment to stay safe.

sslider02

I know for certain my Chevy dealer never did an alignment on my car last week, but they charged me for it, so who knows if your shop really installed the fresh brake fluid? I have never had any track buddy boil 5.1, or even Dot 4, after a fresh flush. Even on tight technical tracks with slicks or R Compounds. The dry points are just too high for that to happen. That is the main reason I always do any task myself that is repetitive (i.e. at least once a year, i learn how to do myself). Sadly I have never done an alignment, so I think that is next on my list to learn. Good luck and best wishes,

village idiot

FYI, that was about 6 years ago and the answer is no- absolutely do not run any street pads on the track.