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Old 08-16-2014, 03:23 PM   #1
Ching Ho
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Default 3,524 lbs is NOT heavy....it's best-in-class.

Many of you are looking at this weight issue all wrong... 3500lb doesn't mean anything in a vacuum - you have to compare curb weight relative to the real-world competition and the torque available. Remember, exotics are misleadingly advertised at dry weight (with no fluids or gas added)...just add about 200lb to their dry weight for a true apples-to-apples comparison. For example, that 3135lb Huracan you've been referencing is really 3406lb if you want to start the engine.

Simply stated, NOTHING short of $1,000,000 can beat the torque-to-weight ratio of the 2015 Z06 when using the most relevant real-world performance metric, curb weight to torque output:

2015 Corvette Z06 - 5.4 (3524/650)
SRT Viper 5.9 (3354/600)
Lamborghini Huracan - 6.1 (3406/560)
McClaren 650s - 6.3 (3162/500)
Ferrari F12 - 6.6 (3362/509)
Corvette Stingray - 7.2 (3298/460)
Porsche 911 Turbo - 7.2 (3500/487)
Lamborghini Aventador - 7.5 (3795/507)
Ferrari 458 Italia - 8.2 (3274/398)

This ratio is the metric that correlates best to Nurburgring lap time results. The math doesn't lie, only human sentiment (see post #42 for mathematical proof). If you're still being stubborn after looking at this comparison, just get a base stingray at a dry weight of 3,150lb. Or a Miata.

Last edited by Ching Ho; 08-16-2014 at 09:27 PM.
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Old 08-16-2014, 03:30 PM   #2
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Weight is still weight however you look at it. You shave weight you go faster. I know a guy with a built C6 (non Z)that weighs 2900lbs wet with 650 rwhp n/a. Way less $ than anything you mentioned and will hand all of them an *** whoop'n.
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Old 08-16-2014, 04:01 PM   #3
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I don't understand why it is so heavy.

My 996TT is made of steel, has AWD and 4 seats and still weighs less than the plastic body panels, aluminium chassis, RWD, 2 seater that is the Z06.

Where does all the weight come from?
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Old 08-16-2014, 04:15 PM   #4
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It is heavy in the only caparison that matters to most - the previous two generations of Z06 came in under 3200lbs. An almost 15% weight increase is going to be noticed on many levels. No matter how it is rationalized and spun by you or GM this is not a good thing.

Sure power is going to be epic and world beating but the weight is disappointing.
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Old 08-16-2014, 04:18 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by Darth GF View Post
I don't understand why it is so heavy.

My 996TT is made of steel, has AWD and 4 seats and still weighs less than the plastic body panels, aluminium chassis, RWD, 2 seater that is the Z06.

Where does all the weight come from?
The Z is certainly larger and has a supercharged V8. Not sure what the six in the Porsche weights.
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Old 08-16-2014, 04:27 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Darth GF View Post
I don't understand why it is so heavy.

My 996TT is made of steel, has AWD and 4 seats and still weighs less than the plastic body panels, aluminium chassis, RWD, 2 seater that is the Z06.

Where does all the weight come from?
But to be honest the 911TT will no longer in the same league as the 650HP C7 Z06. It would not be fair as it is going to get stomped on and beaten very very badly by the American Icon in the upcoming months. The Road course track times I feel will be embarrassing for Porsche if it goes head to head with the new Z.

On the plus side the 911TT will probably beat the Mustang GT500, Challenger Hellcat and Z/28 Camaro by a decent margin depending on the track.
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Old 08-16-2014, 04:30 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ching Ho View Post
Many of you are looking at this weight issue all wrong... 3500lb doesn't mean anything in a vacuum - you have to compare curb weight relative to the real-world competition and the torque available. Remember, exotics are misleadingly advertised at dry weight (with no fluids or gas added)...just add about 200lb to their dry weight for a true apples-to-apples comparison. For example, that 3135lb Huracan you've been referencing is really 3406lb if you want to start the engine.

Simply stated, NOTHING short of $1,000,000 can beat the torque-to-weight ratio of the 2015 Z06 when using the most relevant real-world performance metric, torque to curb weight:

2015 Corvette Z06 - 5.4 (3524/650)
2014 Dodge I mean SRT I mean Dodge Viper - 5.9 (3354/600)
Lamborghini Huracan - 6.1 (3406/560)
McClaren 650s - 6.3 (3162/500)
Ferrari F12 - 6.6 (3362/509)
Corvette Stingray - 7.2 (3298/460)
Porsche 911 Turbo - 7.2 (3500/487)
Lamborghini Aventador - 7.5 (3795/507)
Ferrari 458 Italia - 8.2 (3274/398)

The math doesn't lie, only human sentiment. If you're still being stubborn after looking at this comparison, just get a base stingray at a dry weight of 3,150lb. Or a Miata.
Excellent points. Threw in the Viper for completeness, but its base price is above the Z06's loaded price, so although it too beats the exotics, it will never be more than a niche product, a tiny niche at that.
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Old 08-16-2014, 04:31 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Hirohawa View Post
It is heavy in the only caparison that matters to most - the previous two generations of Z06 came in under 3200lbs. An almost 15% weight increase is going to be noticed on many levels. No matter how it is rationalized and spun by you or GM this is not a good thing.

Sure power is going to be epic and world beating but the weight is disappointing.
You can't compare the new supercharged Z06 to a naturally aspirated C6 Z06 though...it's only a nomenclature difference. With the supercharger, it's basically an upgraded C6 ZR1 and that would be a more appropriate generation comparison... Apples-to-apples.

You're the one spinning it now.

Last edited by Ching Ho; 08-16-2014 at 04:37 PM.
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Old 08-16-2014, 04:33 PM   #9
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But to be honest the 911TT will no longer in the same league as the 650HP C7 Z06. It would not be fair as it is going to get stomped on and beaten very very badly by the American Icon in the upcoming months. The Road course track times I feel will be embarrassing for Porsche if it goes head to head with the new Z.

On the plus side the 911TT will probably beat the Mustang GT500, Challenger Hellcat and Z/28 Camaro by a decent margin depending on the track.
Some tracks benifit higher hp cars more than others. Don't underestimate the Porsche. It is the standard that many use for what a car should handle like.
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Old 08-16-2014, 04:35 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Hirohawa View Post
But to be honest the 911TT will no longer in the same league as the 650HP C7 Z06. It would not be fair as it is going to get stomped on and beaten very very badly by the American Icon in the upcoming months. The Road course track times I feel will be embarrassing for Porsche if it goes head to head with the new Z.

On the plus side the 911TT will probably beat the Mustang GT500, Challenger Hellcat and Z/28 Camaro by a decent margin depending on the track.
I'm not discussing performance, the Z06 will be a beast. The 991TTS is pretty quick but should not be able to beat the Z06 in any performance test except the 0-60 where AWD is king. The GT2RS (if there is one) will be the Z06 competitor (at twice the price).

I'm really curious to know what makes the car so heavy. The only thing that comes to mind is the engine and S/C...
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Old 08-16-2014, 04:42 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Darth GF View Post
I don't understand why it is so heavy.

My 996TT is made of steel, has AWD and 4 seats and still weighs less than the plastic body panels, aluminium chassis, RWD, 2 seater that is the Z06.

Where does all the weight come from?
The design team didn't shoot for absolute minimum weight, but required every gram to earn its way onto the car. I expect published lap times will show that they got their money's worth in performance, which doubtless will far exceed that of the 996TT. If weight means more to you than actual performance, or if you need four seats, by all means stick with the 996TT, or go find my former S2000 CR that was also made of steel and weighed about 2850 but couldn't keep up with my current base C6.
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Old 08-16-2014, 04:44 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth GF View Post
I'm not discussing performance, the Z06 will be a beast. The 991TTS is pretty quick but should not be able to beat the Z06 in any performance test except the 0-60 where AWD is king. The GT2RS (if there is one) will be the Z06 competitor (at twice the price).

I'm really curious to know what makes the car so heavy. The only thing that comes to mind is the engine and S/C...
Pretty easy to break down...z51 curb weight is 3444lb. 3524-3444, so there's 80lb to explain - larger wheels/tires/rotors 40lb, supercharger 60lb, done. The lighter carbon fiber torque tube will offset about 20lb.

Subtract another 20lb if you're going for the carbon ceramic brakes.
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Old 08-16-2014, 04:49 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth GF View Post
I'm not discussing performance, the Z06 will be a beast. The 991TTS is pretty quick but should not be able to beat the Z06 in any performance test except the 0-60 where AWD is king. The GT2RS (if there is one) will be the Z06 competitor (at twice the price).

I'm really curious to know what makes the car so heavy. The only thing that comes to mind is the engine and S/C...
That's easy...OP
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Old 08-16-2014, 04:54 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by ibleedgreen View Post
Weight is still weight however you look at it. You shave weight you go faster. I know a guy with a built C6 (non Z)that weighs 2900lbs wet with 650 rwhp n/a. Way less $ than anything you mentioned and will hand all of them an *** whoop'n.
By that logic lets make everything out of paper and build engines that can't be warrantied. My comparison takes real world production considerations into account.

Last edited by Ching Ho; 08-16-2014 at 04:57 PM.
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Old 08-16-2014, 04:54 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by Ching Ho View Post
You can't compare the new supercharged Z06 to a naturally aspirated C6 Z06 though...it's only a nomenclature difference. With the supercharger, it's basically an upgraded C6 ZR1 and that would be a more appropriate generation comparison... Apples-to-apples.

You're the one spinning it now.
Nice try but it's heavier than a C6 ZR1 too by quite a bit. So again truth and reality not spin.

Last edited by Hirohawa; 08-16-2014 at 04:58 PM.
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Old 08-16-2014, 05:04 PM   #16
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Nice try but it's heavier than a C6 ZR1 too by quite a bit. So again truth and reality not spin.
Comparing the C6 supercharged, the curb weight increase is 4.8% rather than your 15% exaggerated.

Is 5% added weight against the ZR1 worth 6.5% more torque, an upgraded widebody exterior and a vastly improved interior? The sales on the C7 stingray already demonstrate that the market agrees.

My point is, judging and placing undue influence on weight without taking the whole package into account is short-sighted. As Holyroller mentioned, it's all about EARNED weight.

Last edited by Ching Ho; 08-16-2014 at 05:17 PM.
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Old 08-16-2014, 05:17 PM   #17
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I'm really curious to know what makes the car so heavy. The only thing that comes to mind is the engine and S/C...
That's a start--no free lunch in motor vehicle design. More power and torque imply more weight somewhere, or incredible expense.

A better question might be why the Euro-exotics cost three or four times as much as a C7 Z06 but are only 100kg lighter and way down on power and torque. In the Aventador's case, make that why is it 270 pounds heavier and 143 lb-ft weaker (almost the entire torque output of my former S2000) and five times the price for only 50hp more? Yes I know it looks better and the doors go up.
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Old 08-16-2014, 05:23 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by HolyRoller View Post
That's a start--no free lunch in motor vehicle design. More power and torque imply more weight somewhere, or incredible expense.

A better question might be why the Euro-exotics cost three or four times as much as a C7 Z06 but are only 100kg lighter and way down on power and torque. In the Aventador's case, make that why is it 270 pounds heavier and 143 lb-ft weaker (almost the entire torque output of my former S2000) and five times the price for only 50hp more? Yes I know it looks better and the doors go up.
Reminds me of the Stingray comparison review against the Porsche 911S:

"Before you start howling that the Corvette won solely on price, notice that in the stuff that really matters to sports-car buyers, chassis and powertrain, the Porsche holds a single-point lead. Is such a minute edge worth $50,000? $80,000? The Corvette doesn’t win on dollars. It wins on sense."
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Old 08-16-2014, 05:32 PM   #19
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FWIW: from various sources:

According to our research engine:
The curb weight of the 2015 Porsche 911 Turbo S 2dr Coupe is 3538 lbs.

C & D: Ferrari 458:
DIMENSIONS:
Curb weight: 3450 lb

McClaren 12C:
Kerb weight
1,434 kg (3,161 lb)

2015 Nismo GT-R
C & D: Curb weight: 3800-3850 lb

2015 Audi R8 (V8): Curb weight 3,58 lb

A quick (actually not so quick - seems curb weight info is a little 'guarded'?) Google search produced these numbers.
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Old 08-16-2014, 06:05 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by Hirohawa View Post
But to be honest the 911TT will no longer in the same league as the 650HP C7 Z06. It would not be fair as it is going to get stomped on and beaten very very badly by the American Icon in the upcoming months. The Road course track times I feel will be embarrassing for Porsche if it goes head to head with the new Z.

On the plus side the 911TT will probably beat the Mustang GT500, Challenger Hellcat and Z/28 Camaro by a decent margin depending on the track.
Quite honestly you are smoking weed. The TTS already runs 2.7 and 10.9 on street tires every time. Not only that, it is well documented that nearly all the top Porsches will be getting hybrid assistance for an easy 100-150 HP. They will also attempt at all costs to make it competitive with the GTR which, when partnered with F1 William, will definitely be in the neighborhood of 750-800HP with KERS/ and or hybrid assistance.

Very badly beaten? Please explain cuz I sure am not buying that.
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Old 08-16-2014, 06:05 PM
 
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