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I had the opportunity to test two Automatic Z06s almost back to back with the Halltech intake vs. stock.
I wanted to a test that was as close to "apples to apples" as I could, so this is what I did with both cars.
I put them on the dyno and let them run for about ten minutes with the cars in gear and the dyno roller turning. This would get temps stabilized. I did one full dyno pull and then a second pull within about 3 minutes. It is the second pull in each series that I am posting here. The load control was also set to the same setting on each pull.
I figured that this way all results were on a fully warmed up engine and supercharger. No tuning was performed on either car.
If I had not seen this with my own eyes I would probably be calling BS. But I did and I think I made an effort for everything to be as equal as I could.
One thing that I noticed, and I have no explanation for, is that the second run on the stock setup dropped more than the second run with the Halltech. I don't really have an answer for that.
You'll see that one car only made 518 on the second run. It made 533 on the first run. With the Halltech there was only about a 5 RWHP difference.
I know there has been a lot of talk about intakes making the car run too lean. Jim is a pretty smart guy and understands that tube diameter in the MAF reading area is critical. Just making it bigger for more airflow will make it run way too lean.
I understand this more more than most as I spent a lot of time in this area when designing my C7 Supercharger systems.
Does it run leaner than stock? Yes. Is it too lean? No. The stock setup runs way too rich to start off with. As you go through the pull the PCM commands an AFT in the upper 10s due to cat overtemp protection. It does this on every pull and on every car I've tested.
In stock trim the AFR ends up in the 10s. That's WAY too rich.
With the Halltech we see AFRs in the mid to high 11s. That is certainly not too lean and in no way dangerous.
The C7 Z06 crowd seems to be completely anti tune. Actually it's anti almost everything. I even see posts like "change the radiator and lose your warranty" I haven't seen this mentality in the 15 years I've been a vendor on this forum.
GM tuning is pretty strange. They have all kinds of adders and subtractors to most of the tables.
Most tuners will bag an a guy that "rapes the PE table" to get the AFR straightened out, while GM has the stock PE table all over the map.
To get best performance from most modifications will require proper tuning. I personally think Jim has done a great job of sizing the MAF area to artificially "tune" the car to a more desirable AFR.
But what the hell do I know?
I think the dyno sheets speak volumes.
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I had the opportunity to test two Z06s almost back to back with the Halltech intake vs. stock.
I wanted to a test that was as close to "apples to apples" as I could so this is what I did with both cars.
I put them on the dyno and let them run for about ten minutes with the cars in gear and the dyno roller turning. This would get temps stabilized. I did one full dyno pull and then a second pull within about 3 minutes. It is the second pull in each series that I am posting here..
Very impressive, so if I am reading the dyno graphs properly on the first run, bone stock on a A8 car, the Halltech intake car picked up 44rwhp and 39 rwtq?
And on the second run it picked up 50rwhp and 43 rwtq? If yes, WOW, those are AWESOME results!
Very impressive, so if I am reading the dyno graphs properly on the first run, bone stock on a A8 car, the Halltech intake car picked up 44rwhp and 39 rwtq?
And on the second run it picked up 50rwhp and 43 rwtq? If yes, WOW, those are AWESOME results!
Not exactly. The first graph is Pauls car and the dyno sheet shows the second run with both the stock airbox and with the Halltech. You'll note that the runs are numbered #2 and #4.
The second dyno sheet is Scotts car and, again, shows the second run with each setup.
Originally Posted by DRLC5
Wow Great numbers, So the first graph is car #1 stock it made 538 rwhp & 578 rwtq after Halltech Car#1 made 582 rwhp & 617 rwtq. +44 RWHP & + 39 RWTQ.
Second graph Car#2 made stock 518 rwhp & 562 rwtq After Halltech install Car#2 made 568 rwhp & 605 rwtq. +50 RWHP & +43 RWTQ.
Impressive gains.
Your numbers are correct but remember that the car that made 518 had produced 533 just a few minutes earlier. I didn't pick the worst run to make a huge improvement number. I chose to do the second run vs. the second run in all cases just because it seemed that this would be the best way to keep things as equal as possible.
Originally Posted by 91ZR1
Thanks Andy.
Which Halltech intake were you testing?
These are the newest plastic ones with the floating inlet duct. I thought he only made one version. I know he just changed the way the duct attaches to the box itself to allow movement.
I had the opportunity to test two Automatic Z06s almost back to back with the Halltech intake vs. stock.
I wanted to a test that was as close to "apples to apples" as I could, so this is what I did with both cars.
I put them on the dyno and let them run for about ten minutes with the cars in gear and the dyno roller turning. This would get temps stabilized. I did one full dyno pull and then a second pull within about 3 minutes. It is the second pull in each series that I am posting here. The load control was also set to the same setting on each pull.
I figured that this way all results were on a fully warmed up engine and supercharger. No tuning was performed on either car.
If I had not seen this with my own eyes I would probably be calling BS. But I did and I think I made an effort for everything to be as equal as I could.
One thing that I noticed, and I have no explanation for, is that the second run on the stock setup dropped more than the second run with the Halltech. I don't really have an answer for that.
You'll see that one car only made 518 on the second run. It made 533 on the first run. With the Halltech there was only about a 5 RWHP difference.
I know there has been a lot of talk about intakes making the car run too lean. Jim is a pretty smart guy and understands that tube diameter in the MAF reading area is critical. Just making it bigger for more airflow will make it run way too lean.
I understand this more more than most as I spent a lot of time in this area when designing my C7 Supercharger systems.
Does it run leaner than stock? Yes. Is it too lean? No. The stock setup runs way too rich to start off with. As you go through the pull the PCM commands an AFT in the upper 10s due to cat overtemp protection. It does this on every pull and on every car I've tested.
In stock trim the AFR ends up in the 10s. That's WAY too rich.
With the Halltech we see AFRs in the mid to high 11s. That is certainly not too lean and in no way dangerous.
The C7 Z06 crowd seems to be completely anti tune. Actually it's anti almost everything. I even see posts like "change the radiator and lose your warranty" I haven't seen this mentality in the 15 years I've been a vendor on this forum.
GM tuning is pretty strange. They have all kinds of adders and subtractors to most of the tables.
Most tuners will bag an a guy that "rapes the PE table" to get the AFR straightened out, while GM has the stock PE table all over the map.
To get best performance from most modifications will require proper tuning. I personally think Jim has done a great job of sizing the MAF area to artificially "tune" the car to a more desirable AFR.
But what the hell do I know?
I think the dyno sheets speak volumes.
Those graphs are really choppy..... for a graph on 5 smoothing its....not, something is wrong with that. What are you setting your load control to????????
Should look like below on smoothing of 5 (which I never use...it hides too much). I use the load calc for the load adjustment, it ramps up based on frontal area and drag coefficient (duplicating the load the car would see at that mph).
In 2007 I drove 1000 miles to have Andy do the final tune on my car after massive heartaches up here.
I was making a statement as much as anything else. I wanted the best!
Anyway, now I get the luxury of having a guy that I have found to be real insightful chiming in with Andy in this regard.
Enjoy guys, we don't get stuff like this too much!
Last edited by johnglenntwo; 07-03-2015 at 12:29 PM.
Those graphs are really choppy..... for a graph on 5 smoothing its....not, something is wrong with that. What are you setting your load control to????????
Should look like below on smoothing of 5 (which I never use...it hides too much). I use the load calc for the load adjustment, it ramps up based on frontal area and drag coefficient (duplicating the load the car would see at that mph).
what andy says is pretty much dead on. he dynos and does these cdars and trailblazer ss;s all the time plus more. Good guy and im sure all his stuff works fine.
what andy says is pretty much dead on. he dynos and does these cdars and trailblazer ss;s all the time plus more. Good guy and im sure all his stuff works fine.
That's great, but the graph shouldn't look like that stock... Something isn't right. I would like to see how he is setting up the load on the dyno. You put these things under too much load, and the stock ecu will rip timing out with reckless abandon to save the engine, which is exactly what it looks like it's doing. In other words you can't put more load on the engine than what it will see in real life and expect the tune to work. It just doesn't work that way...these aren't diesel trucks pulling trailers...when you floor it, the car is going to accelerate!
People who arent willing to tune a supercharged car shouldnt be modding one, even if it's "just an intake".
The Halltech works great without tuning. That's the point of this not monkey with your 100k powertrain warranty.
More like those who since they didn't buy the car and do the mod.
It is officially not your business. Even your if opinion is wrong!
I can tell the Halltech is adding power and my tailpipes are clean.
Thanks Halltech!
And does direct injection really have to be as rich? That below 12 threshold now too! I thought it was a little different animal now?
No, it doesn't need to be as rich as a port injected engine. The final mixture depends on alot of different things mostly revolving around the potential for knock. Air temp, coolant temp, CAT temp, load etc... all play a part
No, it doesn't need to be as rich as a port injected engine. The final mixture depends on alot of different things mostly revolving around the potential for knock. Air temp, coolant temp, CAT temp, load etc... all play a part
Therefore!? GM's running the car rich to help absorb heat is WCS. I was told the EFI boosted tuner cars were running the ~10% 11.0 to 12.5 gap just for cooling (NA being 12.5 full rich). GM really did everything they could for cooling taking it right before flooded in the low 10s. Some tuners had the ZR1 lean out right away claiming victory, but, this idiot new they were wrong! I just didn't know why back then!
Again running high octane would fill that gap with its stability, but, shy of that being a GM SPEC a warranty in reality probably should be lost if you are leaning the car out in your pursuits, IMO!
Hence, here we are!
Last edited by johnglenntwo; 07-03-2015 at 01:52 PM.
I had the opportunity to test two Automatic Z06s almost back to back with the Halltech intake vs. stock.
I wanted to a test that was as close to "apples to apples" as I could, so this is what I did with both cars.
I put them on the dyno and let them run for about ten minutes with the cars in gear and the dyno roller turning. This would get temps stabilized. I did one full dyno pull and then a second pull within about 3 minutes. It is the second pull in each series that I am posting here. The load control was also set to the same setting on each pull.
I figured that this way all results were on a fully warmed up engine and supercharger. No tuning was performed on either car.
If I had not seen this with my own eyes I would probably be calling BS. But I did and I think I made an effort for everything to be as equal as I could.
One thing that I noticed, and I have no explanation for, is that the second run on the stock setup dropped more than the second run with the Halltech. I don't really have an answer for that.
You'll see that one car only made 518 on the second run. It made 533 on the first run. With the Halltech there was only about a 5 RWHP difference.
I know there has been a lot of talk about intakes making the car run too lean. Jim is a pretty smart guy and understands that tube diameter in the MAF reading area is critical. Just making it bigger for more airflow will make it run way too lean.
I understand this more more than most as I spent a lot of time in this area when designing my C7 Supercharger systems.
Does it run leaner than stock? Yes. Is it too lean? No. The stock setup runs way too rich to start off with. As you go through the pull the PCM commands an AFT in the upper 10s due to cat overtemp protection. It does this on every pull and on every car I've tested.
In stock trim the AFR ends up in the 10s. That's WAY too rich.
With the Halltech we see AFRs in the mid to high 11s. That is certainly not too lean and in no way dangerous.
The C7 Z06 crowd seems to be completely anti tune. Actually it's anti almost everything. I even see posts like "change the radiator and lose your warranty" I haven't seen this mentality in the 15 years I've been a vendor on this forum.
GM tuning is pretty strange. They have all kinds of adders and subtractors to most of the tables.
Most tuners will bag an a guy that "rapes the PE table" to get the AFR straightened out, while GM has the stock PE table all over the map.
To get best performance from most modifications will require proper tuning. I personally think Jim has done a great job of sizing the MAF area to artificially "tune" the car to a more desirable AFR.
But what the hell do I know?
I think the dyno sheets speak volumes.
07-02-2015, 10:31 PM
Halltech Intake testing- 2 cars- interesting results
