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There has been a lot of discussion about how the ECU is reacting to the after market CAI's so I decided to do some logging using HPTuners. I got data while using the stock intake and the AFE intake. What I am shooting for is to show stock data and then data right after putting the new CAI in and then each day after the AFE install.
Car Info:
2016 Z07 2LZ
930 miles
This first image shows a moment in time when I had the throttle floored as much as I could without loosing traction showing the LTFT's for a wide range of RPM's and MAP and has the following info: Intake air temp was 66 Ambient air temp was 55 Engine Coolant temp was 201 Engine torque was 641 @ 3,000 RPM (remember this is engine torque NOT rear wheel) LTFT's are displayed in the top right hand graph, they have been very uniform in all 4 logs I have done and you will see they are pretty similar in the 2 pictures.
This second image shows a moment in time when I had the throttle floored as much as I could without loosing traction showing the LTFT's for a wide range of RPM's and MAP and has the following info: Intake air temp was 93 Ambient air temp was 93 Engine Coolant temp was 187 Engine torque was 637 @ 3,075 RPM (remember this is engine torque NOT rear wheel)
UPDATE #1:
Post AFE (with the oiled blue filter) install data now up!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Car now has 1087 miles on it
This run I had a lot of difficulty keeping the tires from spinning due to the extra HP. As you will see my AFR changed pretty radically in the left region of the graph (the red area) which in turn will effect the wide open throttle final AFR. The run has the following info: Intake air temp was 72 Ambient air temp was 66 Engine Coolant temp averaged 190's O2 mV are average 885 (13.07303 AFR) at WOT with the AFE O2 mV are average 920 (12.5618 AFR) at WOT with original stock
LTFT's are displayed in the top right hand graph (for the people that don't know much about this, the LTFT graph I am logging is the percentage of AFR error from the current commanded AFR. Negative means that fuel had to be removed, positive numbers means that fuel needed to be added.)
As you can see they are radically different visually from the previous stock images (the red areas). In most cases the AFR went up on average on 7%. So lets just assume my AFR was consistently running at 12.0 then now it is running at 12.8 with the new intake! Now I start logging everyday again with the new AFE CAI in and see what happens with the LTFT's. over time
Another thing to note is that it did actually for the first time get into the 110 and 115 MAP rows which is a plus meaning more airflow with we already know but good to see data proof!
UPDATE#2: 3 Days and 7 start/stops Post AFE install Car now has 1151 miles on it
As you will see the red area in the top left area is still about the same, BUT now the LTFT's are now at +4 for all the high RPM areas that got pulled in just before I went from closed loop to open loop (a move of 6% from the first run after AFE install of -2%). So we can now conclude with data that the car will learn and adjust the AFR accordingly, also I gained back the Spark Advance that I lost for 2 days while the car was learning (back in the 20 degree(s) area). This run the car actually hit the 120's on the MAP. The run has the following info:
Intake air temp was 63 Ambient air temp was 63 Engine Coolant temp averaged 185 O2 mV are average 910 (12.707 AFR) at WOT with now 3 days after AFE install
UPDATE#3: 4 Days and 10 start/stops Post AFE install Car now has 1183 miles on it
As you will see the red area in the top left area grew a little to 7's and 8's and using them in the high RPM areas that get pulled in just before I went from closed loop to open loop (a move of 9-10% from the first run after AFE install of -2%). I believe the car is now fully, fully, full learned, lol. The run has the following info:
Intake air temp was 63 Ambient air temp was 64 Engine Coolant temp averaged 187 O2 mV are average 920 (12.507 AFR) at WOT with now 4 days after AFE install
UPDATE#4: Halltech Stinger-RZ installed(plastic edition). One thing I noticed is the top edge of the air box does not meet flush to the mounting wall, I thought that was odd. Car now has 1253 miles on it I reset the LTFT's back to zero so they relearn from scratch
As you will see the top left area is almost identical to stock. The run has the following info:
Intake air temp was 91 (higher than I'd like) Ambient air temp was 75 Engine Coolant temp averaged 190's O2 mV are average 900 (12.8 AFR) at WOT
UPDATE#5: 2nd run after Halltech install after taking the wife to dinner and making her hold the laptop Car now has 1279 miles on it
As you will see the top left area got a little more red area but it is still pretty damn close to stock. The run has the following info:
Intake air temp was 86 (again higher than I'd like) Ambient air temp was 81 Engine Coolant temp averaged 190's O2 mV are average 890 (13 AFR) at WOT
Both of these runs did hit COT as usual and then AFR got really rich, just took longer with higher IAT's
UPDATE#6: 5th run after Halltech install Car now has 1308 miles on it
I found the preliminary video (pre-install of the intake) that Jim @Halltech made that tells you how to adjust the angle of the coolant line so I took the intake totally out and got that moved and tie-wrapped better than my first attempt. The top left area of the log is still pretty damn close to stock (which is a good thing). The run has the following info:
Intake air temp was 59 Ambient air temp was 59 Engine Coolant temp averaged 190's O2 mV are average 900 (12.8 AFR) at WOT until COT kicks in as usual and then get rich as hell
I am having a significantly harder time keeping the wheel spin down with the Halltech (I love having that problem ), I can most definitely tell there is more horsepower in the Halltech than the AFE!!!
UPDATE#7: 10th run after Halltech install Car now has 1367 miles on it
I believe the car is now fully learned with the Halltech as runs 9 and 10 were virtually identical. The run has the following info:
Intake air temp was 61 Ambient air temp was 63 Engine Coolant temp averaged 180's O2 mV are average 920 (12.0 AFR) at WOT
UPDATE#8: 1st run after installing the newest Halltech filter and using the Nomex sock Car now has 1645 miles on it LTFT's are still pretty much the same after 300 more miles since my last update
With the new filter you will see that it is flowing even better than the previous runs, hit a high of 10.6 PSI on Boost and into the 150's on MAP! Intake air temp was 61 Ambient air temp was 64 Engine Coolant temp averaged 190's O2 mV are average 920 (12.0 AFR) at WOT
CONCLUSIONS
1) Yes the CAI will provide some additional HP & Torque on a factory spec tuned car (no special tuner tune)
2) No, it should not weaken any part(s) of the engine and it shouldn't be the cause of an early hour failure.
3) Yes, the CAI (either of the 2 big brands, Halltech or AFE) will somewhat improve that beautiful sound of a forced air system (turbo or S/C) when you push the go peddle
4) It is still one of the lowest "Bang for your Buck" modifications one can make on a C7 Z06.
5) From the pictures above you can see that the Halltech stays a lot closer to stock for the Fuel Trims (which equates to keeping your gains and having the car run smoother) than the AFE does.
PROS for Halltech
1) Matches very close to stock in the idle areas (which equates to keeping your gains and having the car run smoother).
2) With nomex sock option it keeps the Intake Air Temps way down to keep your power up!
3) Amazing support from Jim at Halltech, not just for this product but for many many years on the forum
4) Gives a great sound to the car, you can really notice it when running in "super" stealth exhaust mode, see 1 of my road racing videos from yesterday:
PROS for AFE
1) See thru window to see the state of the filter.
2) Gives a nice sound to the car.
CONS for Halltech
1) Harder to install for DIY guys (not all people are as good with the wrench)
CONS for AFE
1) Not as much power as the Halltech
2) The air flow at idle is pretty far off from stock causing high Fuel Trims which will cause the car to run even richer at wide open throttle than with stock.
I'm not very active on here, actually not very active on many forums anymore for various reasons but I just wanted to add some info that hopefully people find useful. I've seen and tuned more C7 Z06s than I can count at this point with both AFE and Halltech intakes so I'm just sharing what I see.
Both the AFE and Halltech intakes push the fuel trims positive because of how the MAF reads the incoming airflow through the CAI compared to stock. Now since the computers are always adjusting and learning it will take putting some miles on the car to get the long term fuel trims learned to the point where it will add enough fuel to keep it happier at WOT.
Obviously tuning the vehicle to get rid of the positive fuel trims and getting the WOT AFR set to where you want it is the best but I think the question is, do you have to and will it damage anything if you don't? Based on what I've seen I would have to say that no it won't damage anything and as long as it learns the positive trims by putting some miles put on it you should be in a safe range on a STOCK vehicle. I see both the AFE and Halltech push the trims positive around the same amount, maybe a bit more on the Halltech but they are close. Yes it would certainly perform better with a tune but warranty concerns prevent that for many people.
One thing I read was that the computer would learn itself back to stock and it wouldn't provide any benefit anymore, well that's not really how it works. The whole point of the normal operation of the ECM is to compensate for different conditions, fuel, air, sensor drift, etc. It won't unlearn anything unless you disconnect the battery or clear fuel trims and it's learning in the right direction for a mod like this.
I saw somebody mention something about burning up a motor with a CAI, well that's not going to happen either as long as it has had sufficient time to learn it's fuel trims. These computers are VERY sensitive to knock and quick to learn fuel trim values, I really don't see that ever happening with just a CAI due to how safe the GM OE tune is.
Thank you ktoonsez! Hopefully what you are doing here will finally shed some light on the variety of reported results from changing to a CAI system. As you are well aware, there's also some comments that within a few hundred miles (I think that's the measurement...hell, for all I know it could be within 100 or 1000 miles!), the PCM attempts to recalibrate itself to deal with the greater air flow the engine is seeing and that's when the A/F gets out of whack and lean fuel conditions start happening. Please stay with your research, doctor, many of us want to know your results! Thanks......
Yea, um, that stuff might as well be in Chinese, so I'll await for the Z06 Intake 101 book to come out. haha. Nice work. I have my AFE on the way. I'm just gonna do a dyno tune and be done with it at the same time as install.
Yea, um, that stuff might as well be in Chinese, so I'll await for the Z06 Intake 101 book to come out. haha. Nice work. I have my AFE on the way. I'm just gonna do a dyno tune and be done with it at the same time as install.
Anything in particular you want to know/understand? If you can please, post the dyno sheets here of a before and after including the AFR before the tune is done, it would sure help the data information here
Anything in particular you want to know/understand? If you can please, post the dyno sheets of a before and after including the AFR before the tune is done, it would sure help the data information here
Sure will. Not really much to share. I'm a newbie here and unfortunately I read all the threads regarding the way the Z06 reacts to intakes without tunes. So, since I don't really care about my warranty, I'm just gonna get the tune done at the time we do the intake install. Those will be my only mods I'll do anyways so. And yes, I'll post up once it's done.
Sure will. Not really much to share. I'm a newbie here and unfortunately I read all the threads regarding the way the Z06 reacts to intakes without tunes. So, since I don't really care about my warranty, I'm just gonna get the tune done at the time we do the intake install. Those will be my only mods I'll do anyways so. And yes, I'll post up once it's done.
If you received both the oiled blue "high flow" filter and the dry "low flow" filter with your AFE intake I would try the "low flow" after running the blue "high flow" filter. I would reset the PCM after the blue filter test before installing the low flow just to be fair.
The reason I say to give the "low flow" a shot is that was the filter with the stock tune that another 2015 A8 Stage1 Z06 like mine was running at the track the same day that I was with my "stock intake" and "green filter". He was kicking my a$$ so maybe he knows something?
His red Z06 put down a 1.60 60 ft. time using the "launch control" on stock MPSS tires and a 10.50 et. And as I said in another post he was out mph-ing me by over 2 mph that day which is what really convinced me to buy the AFE CAI.
PS: I have tried the "blue filter" a couple of times at the track and as of yet I have not matched my best MPH running the stock set-up and green filter. So I have now installed the "low flow" filter but will have to wait for the tracks to re-open for results.
Last edited by C7/Z06 Man; 02-12-2016 at 02:30 AM.
If you received both the oiled blue "high flow" filter and the dry "low flow" filter with your AFE intake I would try the "low flow" after running the blue "high flow" filter. I would reset the PCM after the blue filter test before installing the low flow just to be fair.
The reason I say to give the "low flow" a shot is that was the filter with the stock tune that another 2015 A8 Stage1 Z06 like mine was running at the track the same day that I was with my "stock intake" and "green filter". He was kicking my a$$ so maybe he knows something?
His red Z06 put down a 1.60 60 ft. time using the "launch control" on stock MPSS tires and a 10.50 et. And as I said in another post he was out mph-ing me by over 2 mph that day which is what really convinced me to buy the AFE CAI.
PS: I have tried the "blue filter" a couple of times at the track and as of yet I have not matched my best MPH running the stock set-up and green filter. So I have now installed the "low flow" filter but will have to wait for the tracks to re-open for results.
There are so many choices I can't decide what to do. I got pretty lucky last night and was able to get my hands on the Halltech too, so that will be on it way today to me so I will have to add that wrinkle into this too, lots of choices on how to log and what to reset at what stage, lol
KT....just please don't forget the first objective....which is to determine if a CAI (regardless whether it's a Halltech or AFE) can be installed on a pure stock (unmolested...HA!) 2015-2016 Z06 and add additional power, supercharger whine, etc., without causing the engine control system to have $hitfits with the end result being a derated engine. That is a super long sentence, but I believe that's really where this whole discussion started. If the CAI leads to a dyno tune which then allows the car to run like a raped ape, so be it. We just need to get thru the first objective with an accurate answer, then move on from there. Hope you are in agreement!!
KT....just please don't forget the first objective....which is to determine if a CAI (regardless whether it's a Halltech or AFE) can be installed on a pure stock (unmolested...HA!) 2015-2016 Z06 and add additional power, supercharger whine, etc., without causing the engine control system to have $hitfits with the end result being a derated engine. That is a super long sentence, but I believe that's really where this whole discussion started. If the CAI leads to a dyno tune which then allows the car to run like a raped ape, so be it. We just need to get thru the first objective with an accurate answer, then move on from there. Hope you are in agreement!!
Yes that is the objective of what I am going to determine with the logs. I will not be tuning the car unless I have to. Just got the car and got a nice warranty with it too so I don't want to resort to tuning it if I don't have to after the testing of course.
One thing I do worry about is that the MAF table mapping is already 3 steps away from max with stock filter. All 6 of my logs are showing a reading mid 9,000 htz reading and the table maxes out at 11.2k.
Yes that is the objective of what I am going to determine with the logs. I will not be tuning the car unless I have to. Just got the car and got a nice warranty with it too so I don't want to resort to tuning it if I don't have to after the testing of course.
One thing I do worry about is that the MAF table mapping is already 3 steps away from max with stock filter. All 6 of my logs are showing a reading mid 9,000 htz reading and the table maxes out at 11.2k.
I wish I could help ya, but you are well over my head with your MAF data that you're concerned about. I have a feeling that there are others anxious to see what you come up with that are "scientifically challenged" much the same as myself. Hang in there, it sounds like you know exactly what we are looking for. Thanks!!
Yes that is the objective of what I am going to determine with the logs. I will not be tuning the car unless I have to. Just got the car and got a nice warranty with it too so I don't want to resort to tuning it if I don't have to after the testing of course.
One thing I do worry about is that the MAF table mapping is already 3 steps away from max with stock filter. All 6 of my logs are showing a reading mid 9,000 htz reading and the table maxes out at 11.2k.
KT correct me if I'm wrong but that 9,000 htz sounds about right on the money stock from what little I know about "modern laptop tuning".
I read somewhere than GM built in a 25% up or down (rich or lean) tuning range from the factory in the ECM/PCM so that 9,000 compared to 11,200 is just about on the money if I am understanding this correctly. 9,000 htz to 11,200 htz leaves approx. 24% more to get to 11,200.
Last edited by C7/Z06 Man; 02-14-2016 at 02:00 PM.
KT correct me if I'm wrong but that 9,000 htz sounds about right on the money stock from what little I know about "modern laptop tuning".
I read somewhere than GM built in a 25% up or down (rich or lean) tuning range from the factory in the ECM/PCM so that 9,000 compared to 11,200 is just about on the money if I am understanding this correctly. 9,000 htz to 11,200 htz leaves approx. 24% more to get to 11,200.
Sounds about right man, just installed the AFE and the htz didn't even go up so I was worried about nothing.
Everybody go back to post #1!!!!!!!!!!!! Just posted the data after the AFE install and let the questions fly
Last edited by Steve Garrett; 03-13-2016 at 02:49 PM.
Reason: Merged Posts
Everybody go back to post #1!!!!!!!!!!!! Just posted the data after the AFE install and let the questions fly
This is great... Thanks so much for clicking in. .
Did you get enough data to form an initial conclusion (in summary)?
Really, my question is - can you dumb it down.. So, someone like me could understand ?
From the looks of the 'After Afe' graph has a lot of red under 4500 RPM... What's the implication? i.e. Does this mean less fuel required? Better fuel economy?
Overall, would you say these findings are 'as expected'?
This is great... Thanks so much for clicking in. .
Did you get enough data to form an initial conclusion (in summary)?
Really, my question is - can you dumb it down.. So, someone like me could understand ?
From the looks of the 'After Afe' graph has a lot of red under 4500 RPM... What's the implication? i.e. Does this mean less fuel required? Better fuel economy?
Overall, would you say these findings are 'as expected'?
Yes I got enough data for my initial conclusion (initial only), since I want to see what the ECU (car's computer) learns over the next 100 miles or so.
The simpler summary of all the data is that the car instead of having to remove fuel (with stock intake) to maintain its command AFR (Air fuel Ratio). With the AFE the ECU is having to add fuel to keep it at the command AFR (about 7% difference across the board in the red regions).
The implication is that the engine will run hotter at wide open throttle and create more knock since the AFR has risen. Simple explanation is the lower the AFR the cooler it runs and with less knock (all assuming no spark table modifications), the higher the AFR the hotter it will run and more than likely cause higher amount of knock. 7% really isn't that bad of a jump in AFR and certainly will not kill a motor.
This has nothing to do with fuel economy it is the ECU trying to achieve the same final AFR (let's say 12.0), with the stock it had to remove fuel because the ECU saw, lets say, actual AFR was 11.5 with the AFE it is having to add fuel because it was seeing an AFR of 12.8.
Overall I am seeing exactly what I excepted to see. Now we just need to wait for another few days/100 miles to see what happens to the red area of the graph over time/miles.
02-11-2016, 02:55 PM
CAI Stock/Aftermarket Data
