Mid-Engined “Corvette” to be a Cadillac?
09-02-2016, 05:53 PM
#1
Le Mans Master
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Mid-Engined “Corvette” to be a Cadillac?
Mid-Engined “Corvette” to be a Cadillac
(article from link below)
Any news about a mid-engine car from GM is guaranteed to ricochet around the world and get tongues wagging. Especially amongst armchair critics circling the internet waiting for a scrap of evidence that might break the story of what exactly GM has up it’s sleeve when it comes to big kahuna, mid-engined supercars.
We’ve speculated on this hot potato subject before, but we’re going to go out on a limb and declare the mid-engine “Corvette” will actually be a range topping Cadillac.
We’ll explain how we came to this conclusion, but first let’s start at the beginning for people that might not know the key players.
Cadillac has been hitting it out of the ballpark as of late with a ferocious range of V-Series cars and big daddy Escalades that they can’t build enough of. On the other hand, the 100+ year old company can’t seem to move the sales needle with the critically acclaimed, but slow moving ATS and CTS models.
To shore things up, GM recently anointed South African born, former Audi chief Johan de Nysschen to guide Cadillac to the promise land. He joined another poached exec, marketing chief–and ex-BMW alumni–Uwe Ellinghaus, and they wasted no time time explaining to Americans what they thought a Cadillac should be. They also instituted the alpha-numeric model names as well, which we see as a yawn inducing concession to mimic German luxury car makers.
Now, we won’t waste anyone’s time contemplating why we needed to hire South Africans and Germans to tell us what our hallowed Cadillac marque means, so we’ll just put that out there and let you think about that for a minute.
Meanwhile, de Nysschen is a known proponant of a top-of-line supercar for Cadillac and sees such a car as just the thing to break the division free from its sales doldrums.
The Wreath and Crest division has tried this range topping thing before with the XLR. We thought it was cool, but alas, like the old GM was infamous for, they pulled the plug during “The Great Recession” just as things were getting good with V-Series variant etc.
Fast forward to last week when auto journalist Paul Eisenstein at The Detroit Bureau ran an article about the future of Cadillac products and it compelled de Nysschen himself to respond. We’ll cut to the chase with the following excerpt from The Detroit Bureau article which carried de Nysschen’s response. Especially telling is the last sentence.
“It’s not so much an issue of Cadillac programs which have been “cancelled.” The only item which is correct, is the change in planning for a Lux 5 flagship sedan, versus the plan which was previously reported to our dealers. Rather than calling it a “cancellation”, I prefer to consider the change to the flagship program as a revision to what will constitute the Cadillac flagship. There will be a flagship, but given the segment development, it will not be a large four door sedan…”
Cadillac already has the Escalade and with the sedan market soft, they not going to field a sedan above the CT6, so again, we think this is the best indication to date that the mid-engine car GM is working on WILL NOT be a Corvette.
Now, depending on how you feel about a mid-engine Corvette, this either great news or a real bummer.
We were always skeptical the car was going to be a Corvette for the following reasons:
The C7 still has a lot of life left in it. Not only that, Chevrolet just sold more than 40,000 Corvettes for 2016, it’s best sales year in decades. We think it will be a tough sell to GM brass to mess with that formula. Period.
GM more than doubled the floor space at Bowling Green. Why would they double space for one model? As Judge Judy says, “If it doesn’t make sense, it’s not true.”
Moving the Corvette upmarket will alienate hardcore buyers. Most Corvette folks I know like the car just the way it is.
What will power this thing is anyones guess at the moment but rumors of a DOHC motor have swirled around. An LT V8 might be too plebeian for this application.
Bottom line? A devastating 1-2 punch from a duo of GM supercars would be a damn good thing.
(article from link below)
Any news about a mid-engine car from GM is guaranteed to ricochet around the world and get tongues wagging. Especially amongst armchair critics circling the internet waiting for a scrap of evidence that might break the story of what exactly GM has up it’s sleeve when it comes to big kahuna, mid-engined supercars.
We’ve speculated on this hot potato subject before, but we’re going to go out on a limb and declare the mid-engine “Corvette” will actually be a range topping Cadillac.
We’ll explain how we came to this conclusion, but first let’s start at the beginning for people that might not know the key players.
Cadillac has been hitting it out of the ballpark as of late with a ferocious range of V-Series cars and big daddy Escalades that they can’t build enough of. On the other hand, the 100+ year old company can’t seem to move the sales needle with the critically acclaimed, but slow moving ATS and CTS models.
To shore things up, GM recently anointed South African born, former Audi chief Johan de Nysschen to guide Cadillac to the promise land. He joined another poached exec, marketing chief–and ex-BMW alumni–Uwe Ellinghaus, and they wasted no time time explaining to Americans what they thought a Cadillac should be. They also instituted the alpha-numeric model names as well, which we see as a yawn inducing concession to mimic German luxury car makers.
Now, we won’t waste anyone’s time contemplating why we needed to hire South Africans and Germans to tell us what our hallowed Cadillac marque means, so we’ll just put that out there and let you think about that for a minute.
Meanwhile, de Nysschen is a known proponant of a top-of-line supercar for Cadillac and sees such a car as just the thing to break the division free from its sales doldrums.
The Wreath and Crest division has tried this range topping thing before with the XLR. We thought it was cool, but alas, like the old GM was infamous for, they pulled the plug during “The Great Recession” just as things were getting good with V-Series variant etc.
Fast forward to last week when auto journalist Paul Eisenstein at The Detroit Bureau ran an article about the future of Cadillac products and it compelled de Nysschen himself to respond. We’ll cut to the chase with the following excerpt from The Detroit Bureau article which carried de Nysschen’s response. Especially telling is the last sentence.
“It’s not so much an issue of Cadillac programs which have been “cancelled.” The only item which is correct, is the change in planning for a Lux 5 flagship sedan, versus the plan which was previously reported to our dealers. Rather than calling it a “cancellation”, I prefer to consider the change to the flagship program as a revision to what will constitute the Cadillac flagship. There will be a flagship, but given the segment development, it will not be a large four door sedan…”
Cadillac already has the Escalade and with the sedan market soft, they not going to field a sedan above the CT6, so again, we think this is the best indication to date that the mid-engine car GM is working on WILL NOT be a Corvette.
Now, depending on how you feel about a mid-engine Corvette, this either great news or a real bummer.
We were always skeptical the car was going to be a Corvette for the following reasons:
The C7 still has a lot of life left in it. Not only that, Chevrolet just sold more than 40,000 Corvettes for 2016, it’s best sales year in decades. We think it will be a tough sell to GM brass to mess with that formula. Period.
GM more than doubled the floor space at Bowling Green. Why would they double space for one model? As Judge Judy says, “If it doesn’t make sense, it’s not true.”
Moving the Corvette upmarket will alienate hardcore buyers. Most Corvette folks I know like the car just the way it is.
What will power this thing is anyones guess at the moment but rumors of a DOHC motor have swirled around. An LT V8 might be too plebeian for this application.
Bottom line? A devastating 1-2 punch from a duo of GM supercars would be a damn good thing.
09-02-2016, 06:14 PM
#2
Le Mans Master
"...but we’re going to go out on a limb and declare the mid-engine “Corvette” will actually be a range topping Cadillac....."
...more speculation!
...more speculation!
09-02-2016, 06:17 PM
#3
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The rumored code name for the last couple of years has been the Zora. Zora isn't famous for working on Cadillacs.
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09-02-2016, 06:21 PM
#4
Le Mans Master
Both will get mid engine cars caddy and Chevy they won't sell enough caddys to pay for its development.
z51vett
Doug
z51vett
Doug
09-02-2016, 06:33 PM
#6
Le Mans Master
Hmmm.... Where have I heard that before? Back in July... though admittedly it was just wanton speculation.
Originally Posted by dave396lt1
I still think it'll be a Cadillac. And might not be more powerful than the Z06, just more technically advanced. That gives them the best of both worlds: a higher price point car that doesn't cheapen the Z, a technological showcase for Cadillac, an answer to the Ford GT, all without upsetting the Corvette crowd.
Last edited by davepl; 09-02-2016 at 06:33 PM.
09-02-2016, 06:33 PM
#7
Burning Brakes
Please, keep these guys away, far away, from the Chevrolet and Corvette brand. As a Vette owner and Cadillac owner, I want to puke every time I'm subjected to those stupid commercials with dudes gliding backwards between buildings. Congratulations, Caddy sales are going backwards! Don't mention your car versus the competition, instead, "dare greatly"According to his latest comments, Bob Lutz agrees. Very worried!!! Paul
09-02-2016, 06:47 PM
#8
Funny, if you read Peter DeLorenzo's weekly column in Autoextremist.com, he thinks both Johan de Nysschen and Uwe Ellinghaus will be complete failures. The marketing campaign they have created is questionable, and their strategy to turn Cadillac into Audi is a joke. I tend to agree with Peter.
All Cadillac has going for it is the Escalade, no matter how great the V cars are. The cars are over-priced, resulting in massive discounts.
Cadillac trying to sell a super car is a no-starter in my opinion. No heritage, no dealer network set-up to handle said car, and no possible real sales volume.
My guess in all this is this mid-engine car will be an additional model in the Corvette line. I think GM would be successful creating a separate Corvette brand and could expand it's line up like Porsche has i.e., sedans and SUV's. I know, complete heresy!
Before anyone gets all worked up, it's just speculation on my part. Doubtful any non-GM employees on this board really know what's going to happen.
Until there is an official announcement, it's fun to guess.
Have a happy and safe Labor Day weekend all!
All Cadillac has going for it is the Escalade, no matter how great the V cars are. The cars are over-priced, resulting in massive discounts.
Cadillac trying to sell a super car is a no-starter in my opinion. No heritage, no dealer network set-up to handle said car, and no possible real sales volume.
My guess in all this is this mid-engine car will be an additional model in the Corvette line. I think GM would be successful creating a separate Corvette brand and could expand it's line up like Porsche has i.e., sedans and SUV's. I know, complete heresy!
Before anyone gets all worked up, it's just speculation on my part. Doubtful any non-GM employees on this board really know what's going to happen.
Until there is an official announcement, it's fun to guess.
Have a happy and safe Labor Day weekend all!
09-02-2016, 06:49 PM
#9
Le Mans Master
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Location: Port Arthur, Texas 77642
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I didn't write the article nor do I promote as fact, merely putting the link out there to read and invoke thought.
09-02-2016, 06:52 PM
#10
Race Director
The frame Caddy XLR came out in 2004, a year before the C6 came out in 2005 on essentially the same frame.
Here's the Cadillac Cien that was a concept car that was showcased at shows in 2002 - 15 years ago!! And it was a real car that would actually drive, not just some engineless concept design.
It had a 7.5 Liter Northstar V12 with 750hp and direct injection, that was supposed to easily be capable of 950hp.
So....there's a lot of technology out there that has already been built into a mid-engine Caddy!!
.
.
Here's the Cadillac Cien that was a concept car that was showcased at shows in 2002 - 15 years ago!! And it was a real car that would actually drive, not just some engineless concept design.
It had a 7.5 Liter Northstar V12 with 750hp and direct injection, that was supposed to easily be capable of 950hp.
So....there's a lot of technology out there that has already been built into a mid-engine Caddy!!
.
.
Last edited by BEZ06; 09-02-2016 at 06:55 PM.
09-02-2016, 06:53 PM
#11
Like what they did with the C6 and the XLR, there will be one platform assembled in BG.
A range-topping Caddy DOHC NA and/or Turbo,with a probable Hybrid in the mix, and the C8 in its various guises.
The C8 and C7 could actually be built at the same time for a few years just to be sure the faithful will accept the ME.
Prices on the Caddy will start at $130k and the mid-engine C8 will be bumped up over the C7's price.
A range-topping Caddy DOHC NA and/or Turbo,with a probable Hybrid in the mix, and the C8 in its various guises.
The C8 and C7 could actually be built at the same time for a few years just to be sure the faithful will accept the ME.
Prices on the Caddy will start at $130k and the mid-engine C8 will be bumped up over the C7's price.
09-02-2016, 07:05 PM
#12
All of the current Cadillac models have been reviewed favorably.
Cadillac trying to sell a super car is a no-starter in my opinion. No heritage, no dealer network set-up to handle said car, and no possible real sales volume.
My guess in all this is this mid-engine car will be an additional model in the Corvette line. I think GM would be successful creating a separate Corvette brand and could expand it's line up like Porsche has i.e., sedans and SUV's. I know, complete heresy!
Here's the Cadillac Cien that was a concept car that was showcased at shows in 2002 - 15 years ago!! And it was a real car that would actually drive, not just some engineless concept design.
It had a 7.5 Liter Northstar V12 with 750hp and direct injection, that was supposed to easily be capable of 950hp.
So....there's a lot of technology out there that has already been built into a mid-engine Caddy!!
It had a 7.5 Liter Northstar V12 with 750hp and direct injection, that was supposed to easily be capable of 950hp.
So....there's a lot of technology out there that has already been built into a mid-engine Caddy!!
Unfortunately, GM lacked the will or something to put it out there.
It could have dramatically changed the fortunes of the company at the time.
Instead, they ended up in bankruptcy.
09-02-2016, 07:23 PM
#13
Le Mans Master
Funny, if you read Peter DeLorenzo's weekly column in Autoextremist.com, he thinks both Johan de Nysschen and Uwe Ellinghaus will be complete failures. The marketing campaign they have created is questionable, and their strategy to turn Cadillac into Audi is a joke. I tend to agree with Peter.
All Cadillac has going for it is the Escalade, no matter how great the V cars are. The cars are over-priced, resulting in massive discounts.
Cadillac trying to sell a super car is a no-starter in my opinion. No heritage, no dealer network set-up to handle said car, and no possible real sales volume.
My guess in all this is this mid-engine car will be an additional model in the Corvette line. I think GM would be successful creating a separate Corvette brand and could expand it's line up like Porsche has i.e., sedans and SUV's. I know, complete heresy!
Before anyone gets all worked up, it's just speculation on my part. Doubtful any non-GM employees on this board really know what's going to happen.
Until there is an official announcement, it's fun to guess.
Have a happy and safe Labor Day weekend all!
All Cadillac has going for it is the Escalade, no matter how great the V cars are. The cars are over-priced, resulting in massive discounts.
Cadillac trying to sell a super car is a no-starter in my opinion. No heritage, no dealer network set-up to handle said car, and no possible real sales volume.
My guess in all this is this mid-engine car will be an additional model in the Corvette line. I think GM would be successful creating a separate Corvette brand and could expand it's line up like Porsche has i.e., sedans and SUV's. I know, complete heresy!
Before anyone gets all worked up, it's just speculation on my part. Doubtful any non-GM employees on this board really know what's going to happen.
Until there is an official announcement, it's fun to guess.
Have a happy and safe Labor Day weekend all!
09-02-2016, 07:32 PM
#14
Drifting
Originally Posted by DAVE396LT1
Hmmm.... Where have I heard that before? Back in July... though admittedly it was just wanton speculation.
Last edited by 1QUICK Z; 09-02-2016 at 07:37 PM.
09-02-2016, 09:42 PM
#15
Funny, if you read Peter DeLorenzo's weekly column in Autoextremist.com, he thinks both Johan de Nysschen and Uwe Ellinghaus will be complete failures. The marketing campaign they have created is questionable, and their strategy to turn Cadillac into Audi is a joke. I tend to agree with Peter.
All Cadillac has going for it is the Escalade, no matter how great the V cars are. The cars are over-priced, resulting in massive discounts.
Cadillac trying to sell a super car is a no-starter in my opinion. No heritage, no dealer network set-up to handle said car, and no possible real sales volume.
My guess in all this is this mid-engine car will be an additional model in the Corvette line. I think GM would be successful creating a separate Corvette brand and could expand it's line up like Porsche has i.e., sedans and SUV's. I know, complete heresy!
Before anyone gets all worked up, it's just speculation on my part. Doubtful any non-GM employees on this board really know what's going to happen.
Until there is an official announcement, it's fun to
Have a happy and safe Labor Day weekend all!
All Cadillac has going for it is the Escalade, no matter how great the V cars are. The cars are over-priced, resulting in massive discounts.
Cadillac trying to sell a super car is a no-starter in my opinion. No heritage, no dealer network set-up to handle said car, and no possible real sales volume.
My guess in all this is this mid-engine car will be an additional model in the Corvette line. I think GM would be successful creating a separate Corvette brand and could expand it's line up like Porsche has i.e., sedans and SUV's. I know, complete heresy!
Before anyone gets all worked up, it's just speculation on my part. Doubtful any non-GM employees on this board really know what's going to happen.
Until there is an official announcement, it's fun to
Have a happy and safe Labor Day weekend all!
What discounts are you talking about? Maybe the atsv!
09-02-2016, 09:43 PM
#16
09-02-2016, 09:45 PM
#17
09-03-2016, 12:11 AM
#18
Melting Slicks
Modern Cadillac sports/luxury coupes have failed miserably. I don't know why GM keeps trying them. XLR was a disappointment, Allante before that. Nice vehicles but they didn't sell. I don't see a Cadillac-badged Zora being any different. No sports car heritage at Cadillac, so they don't attract sports car buyers in decent numbers.
CTS does well, but it is in the sports sedan category, not sports car.
CTS does well, but it is in the sports sedan category, not sports car.
09-03-2016, 01:18 AM
#19
Le Mans Master
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I think the prior model CTS coupe is one the best looking 4 seater coupes ever available. It kicks the crap out of the various Mercedes, Audi, BMW, etc. offers.
Cadillac just does not stick with it long enough to develop a following. They also have not gone hard enough for the German car crowd, or soft enough for their traditional crowd to be successful. An active suspension that could be soft for the 70 plus crowd and then made hard enough for the white knuckle crowd, they would be successful. Throw in customization options like truly custom colors, or stitching options , etc. like Porsche (including the high option prices for those) they would attract a different crowd.
I think Cadillac with a DOHC, and a Corvette with OHV V8 would appeal to different crowds. Obviously, they would also need completely different bodies and interiors. The Caddy would get a slushbox and a dual clutch. The Corvette a manual and dual clutch. The Corvette would offer a GT RS type performance model. The Caddy would not need that. The Caddy would get subtle active aero, the Corvette brash active aero
or even brasher fixed aero!
A man can dream.
Cadillac just does not stick with it long enough to develop a following. They also have not gone hard enough for the German car crowd, or soft enough for their traditional crowd to be successful. An active suspension that could be soft for the 70 plus crowd and then made hard enough for the white knuckle crowd, they would be successful. Throw in customization options like truly custom colors, or stitching options , etc. like Porsche (including the high option prices for those) they would attract a different crowd.
I think Cadillac with a DOHC, and a Corvette with OHV V8 would appeal to different crowds. Obviously, they would also need completely different bodies and interiors. The Caddy would get a slushbox and a dual clutch. The Corvette a manual and dual clutch. The Corvette would offer a GT RS type performance model. The Caddy would not need that. The Caddy would get subtle active aero, the Corvette brash active aero
or even brasher fixed aero!A man can dream.
09-03-2016, 02:21 AM
#20
What's in a name
Frequently a person's age influences how they feel about certain things. I'm 66. For me the word "Cadillac" means big, boxy, poorly manufactured luxury car driven by old people. Lately, ( in the past few decades ) it has come to mean as well ostentatious bling encrusted and bordering on ridiculous ( Escalade ).
I really don't think this "heritage" is something that Cadillac can escape for at least another generation. I'd never buy one just because of a lifetime of what I associate with the brand.
I really don't think this "heritage" is something that Cadillac can escape for at least another generation. I'd never buy one just because of a lifetime of what I associate with the brand.