Tadge Juechter Says No Mid-Engine Corvette Zora/ZR1 Planned
03-01-2017, 09:06 PM
#61
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Oh, please. ^^^^^^^
Not a real "Car guy" (whatever THAT means). Who do you think helped with the C5 and C6 and designed the C7 (and is designing the C8 as we speak. How many cars have you had a hand in engineering?) As far as Tadge's believability, I suggest you do some research and show us where he has lied. Just because some guy says it on this forum doesn't make it true (see my post #44 for a PERFECT example of a guy calling Tadge a liar and then having it proven FALSE). Do yourself a favor and don't be "that guy".
The interviewers gave Tadge an out when they NAMED the mid-engine car. Had they asked: "Are you working on a mid-engine car?", then Tadge would have to say no or no comment or I can't talk about future product. When the journalists decided to show how smart they were (or thought they were), they made it easy for Tadge to reply: "I know of no such car". Semantics....perhaps, but them's the breaks.
This kind of crap really bothers me. Calling someone a liar maybe OK for politicians but it is something that should not be done with the cavalier attitude that some on this forum do it. Guess it's easier for some when hiding behind the anonymity of the internet. Still doesn't make it OK. I bet you wouldn't call Tadge a liar to his face.
Not a real "Car guy" (whatever THAT means). Who do you think helped with the C5 and C6 and designed the C7 (and is designing the C8 as we speak. How many cars have you had a hand in engineering?) As far as Tadge's believability, I suggest you do some research and show us where he has lied. Just because some guy says it on this forum doesn't make it true (see my post #44 for a PERFECT example of a guy calling Tadge a liar and then having it proven FALSE). Do yourself a favor and don't be "that guy".
The interviewers gave Tadge an out when they NAMED the mid-engine car. Had they asked: "Are you working on a mid-engine car?", then Tadge would have to say no or no comment or I can't talk about future product. When the journalists decided to show how smart they were (or thought they were), they made it easy for Tadge to reply: "I know of no such car". Semantics....perhaps, but them's the breaks.
This kind of crap really bothers me. Calling someone a liar maybe OK for politicians but it is something that should not be done with the cavalier attitude that some on this forum do it. Guess it's easier for some when hiding behind the anonymity of the internet. Still doesn't make it OK. I bet you wouldn't call Tadge a liar to his face.
GM chief engineers are management, not hands-on engineering. There are underlings (ie: design engineers) that do the actual design of the suspension, the transaxles, the engine, etc, etc, etc. Add to that the styling group that comes up with the looks of the car. There are a multitude of talented people who actually design these cars (in addition to a lot of talented people who fabricate and test the early prototypes). This is no where near a one-man operation.
Your hero worship is a bit naive, and you slight a lot of talented hard working people in the process.
03-01-2017, 09:59 PM
#62
Melting Slicks
^^^ Sorry to burst your bubble, because Tadge is and always has been a engineer while working for GM. As a Chief Engineer you have to have a complete understanding of the numerous Engineering disciplines to make the right decisions for the overall design direction for the car. He clearly has a firm grasp of the proper decision making process because he understands all of the disciplines. No one here is saying that he is a one-man operation. What we are saying is that he is firmly in charge of the whole design and engineering team with the best ability to unify all in a cohesive direction. Here is a sentence from the Automobile Man Of The Year article where it explains his educational background. He possibly could be the most educated person on the whole Corvette team with three separate degrees.
Born in Laredo, Texas, as part of an Air Force family who frequently moved, he earned degrees in mechanical and aerospace engineering and an MBA at Stanford
Born in Laredo, Texas, as part of an Air Force family who frequently moved, he earned degrees in mechanical and aerospace engineering and an MBA at Stanford
Last edited by Steve Garrett; 03-01-2017 at 11:48 PM. Reason: No need to re-quote the previous post, especially if you're the next person posting.
03-01-2017, 10:46 PM
#63
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^^^ Don't worry about bursting my bubble, I spent enough decades at GM (design engineer) to have a feel for things. I can count on one hand the number of times I saw a chief engineer in the lab, in the garage, or out on the track. Admittedly, a Corvette is a fun car (it made test track development/test miles slightly less like work) and you're more likely to see management out on the track when it's a Corvette to drive.
And no, you don't need a complete understanding of all the engineering disciplines to do the job. You need a reasonably decent understanding of the big picture, and you need underlings with expertise in their slice of the pie to give you the answers to any questions you might have. Nobody is an expert on everything.
I worked with several guys with MBAs. They all went the management pathway though, as an MBA is not that vital of a skillset in deep engineering.
I'm not saying anything negative toward the CE. I don't know him from Adam. I'm just saying it takes a great team, not just one person, to make a great car. I've seen it in person, and worked with a lot of talented people in the different GM groups. I just believe in spreading the love/respect around a bit, okay?
And no, you don't need a complete understanding of all the engineering disciplines to do the job. You need a reasonably decent understanding of the big picture, and you need underlings with expertise in their slice of the pie to give you the answers to any questions you might have. Nobody is an expert on everything.
I worked with several guys with MBAs. They all went the management pathway though, as an MBA is not that vital of a skillset in deep engineering.
I'm not saying anything negative toward the CE. I don't know him from Adam. I'm just saying it takes a great team, not just one person, to make a great car. I've seen it in person, and worked with a lot of talented people in the different GM groups. I just believe in spreading the love/respect around a bit, okay?
Last edited by Steve Garrett; 03-01-2017 at 11:47 PM. Reason: No need to re-quote the previous post, especially if you're the next person posting.
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skank (03-01-2017)
03-01-2017, 11:10 PM
#64
Melting Slicks
^^^ Thanks for your clarification. You are so right that it does take a team of talented engineers and designers to make it happen. No doubt a very talented group on the Corvette. I have a brother who was a Aerospace Engineer for General Dynamics. He was one of the lead Engineers on the wing section of the F16. He told me once that there were 800 engineers on the wing sections alone. While at GD he also worked with NASA on the space shuttle and the spy satellite program. Obviously I hold all of you talented people in high regard considering the effort that you put forth. Hence my disdain for people that trash talk Tadge Juechter without really knowing anything about the man. Thank you Sir for your contribution. 
Last edited by Steve Garrett; 03-01-2017 at 11:47 PM. Reason: No need to re-quote the previous post, especially if you're the next person posting.
03-01-2017, 11:40 PM
#65
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Ford can justify the price tag of the Ford GT because they didn't have a halo car. Chevy does and you can't just say hey here is a mid engine corvette we want 300k for it but we sell its little brother for alot less...you can't say that with the Ford GT it doesn't work that way. Corvette has always been affordable to most more then others performance cars. they have been talking about a mid engine corvette before I was born and guess what they will probably still be talking about it for more years to come. IMO there will never be a mid engine corvette...ever...and it wouldn't be called a corvette because then from here on out it would have to be a mid engine and the price would be out the door and corvette woukd be dead.. so it's not happening ever...now if you wanna talk performance and breaking off and being mid engine you know what name it will be under? Cadillac..I'll put money on that.
03-01-2017, 11:53 PM
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03-02-2017, 07:51 AM
#67
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Earth calling jimmy.....
GM chief engineers are management, not hands-on engineering. There are underlings (ie: design engineers) that do the actual design of the suspension, the transaxles, the engine, etc, etc, etc. Add to that the styling group that comes up with the looks of the car. There are a multitude of talented people who actually design these cars (in addition to a lot of talented people who fabricate and test the early prototypes). This is no where near a one-man operation.
Your hero worship is a bit naive, and you slight a lot of talented hard working people in the process.
GM chief engineers are management, not hands-on engineering. There are underlings (ie: design engineers) that do the actual design of the suspension, the transaxles, the engine, etc, etc, etc. Add to that the styling group that comes up with the looks of the car. There are a multitude of talented people who actually design these cars (in addition to a lot of talented people who fabricate and test the early prototypes). This is no where near a one-man operation.
Your hero worship is a bit naive, and you slight a lot of talented hard working people in the process.
At what point did I slight the "underlings" (your term, which is a slight unto itself). I am VERY aware that the chief engineer is basically the CEO of ALL the people working towards the common goal (designing a great Corvette). In fact, prior to his appointment as CE, Tadge WAS one of those people.
This place is unreal...so many agendas and so many misplaced opinions and so little lack of comprehension of what someone (in this case, me) writes.
I am TIRED of the "Tadge is a liar" bandwagon, nothing more, nothing less.
And finally, all the "underlings" are not taking a bunch of CRAP from people on this board. Who got the blame for the C7 tail lights? The designer? NO, Tadge did, even though he didn't design the freakin' things. Who got the blame for the A8 issues? Toledo Transmission? No again, Tadge would be the answer you're looking for.
So, earth to number member, read my posts next time, how about that?
Jimmy
PS. As chief engineer, Tadge IS the face of Corvette. So, he gets the good with the bad, has to answer the TOUGH questions (like the 2 Z06's that didn't work right for Motor Trend). Were those 2 cars HIS FAULT? Nope, but he took the heat. Somewhere, "underlings" screwed the pooch on those 2 cars. Do we know THEIR names? Right.
Last edited by jimmyb; 03-02-2017 at 08:08 AM.
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skank (03-02-2017)
03-05-2017, 01:20 PM
#68
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^^^ WE don't know their names, but you know damn well that the CE knows (if he didn't before, I'm sure he does now) and the "Motor Trend issue" is likely to have an impact on future career advancement, or even present employment status. Just because we (underlings) are shielded from the public eye does not mean we don't catch hell back in our little cubicles if there's a vehicle issue. If the A8 issue was due to somebody dropping the ball, or hiding the facts, then someone needs to be fired. If it was due to some unknown/unexpected factor, then the team just has to put in a bunch of late nights getting the problem fixed and restoring their reputation, if possible.
Most engineers are pretty proud of their profession/skillset (it's a calling for most of us) but I will confess to working with some "fellow engineers" who seemed to have chosen engineering because it "sounded interesting and paid pretty decently". My philosophy is if you're going to pursue a career, aim for something you have a passion and an aptitude for, rather than just focusing on that paycheck twice a month.
Most engineers are pretty proud of their profession/skillset (it's a calling for most of us) but I will confess to working with some "fellow engineers" who seemed to have chosen engineering because it "sounded interesting and paid pretty decently". My philosophy is if you're going to pursue a career, aim for something you have a passion and an aptitude for, rather than just focusing on that paycheck twice a month.
Last edited by Steve Garrett; 03-05-2017 at 11:14 PM. Reason: No need to re-quote the previous post, especially if you're the next person posting.
03-05-2017, 03:14 PM
#69
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^^^^
I believe we are on the same page based on the above.
With the intro of the C7, a small, VERY vocal minority (not including you in that) on this forum took to gutting and fileting Tadge for EVERYTHING wrong (real or perceived) with the C7. These same people will read Tadge's own responses in "Ask Tadge" (what other C.E. of an important marque even does that?), not like his response (or just not reading it at all), and then call him a liar. I have asked numerous members of the "Tadge is a liar" to PROVE IT, at which point they always go strangely silent.
So, no harm no foul.
PS. Check out post #42 in this thread for a classic "Tadge is a liar" and my reply in post #43 correcting the guy, who, like all others, then goes silent.
I believe we are on the same page based on the above.
With the intro of the C7, a small, VERY vocal minority (not including you in that) on this forum took to gutting and fileting Tadge for EVERYTHING wrong (real or perceived) with the C7. These same people will read Tadge's own responses in "Ask Tadge" (what other C.E. of an important marque even does that?), not like his response (or just not reading it at all), and then call him a liar. I have asked numerous members of the "Tadge is a liar" to PROVE IT, at which point they always go strangely silent.
So, no harm no foul.
PS. Check out post #42 in this thread for a classic "Tadge is a liar" and my reply in post #43 correcting the guy, who, like all others, then goes silent.
Last edited by jimmyb; 03-05-2017 at 03:21 PM.
03-05-2017, 03:51 PM
#70
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^^^ 
Last edited by Steve Garrett; 03-05-2017 at 11:15 PM. Reason: No need to re-quote the previous post, especially if you're the next person posting.
03-06-2017, 11:35 PM
#72
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Several of my comments in post 68 are missing.
I understand possibly removing redundant post material, but I'm disappointed that several of my comments/replies/examples in post #68 were deleted in the process of editing/removing that redundant material. There was important context in those replies, and readers are left with the bottom half the story.
03-07-2017, 03:16 PM
#73
Granted it will require lots of R&D costs, more so than say the C5> C6 or even the C6 > C7; but a good portion of that R&D costs has been absorbed over the last 30 years of building and testing prototypes; and the Corvette prototype racing program. You didn't think they developed and sold that race car just to win races in a fairly junior racing series did you?
03-07-2017, 04:39 PM
#74
Race Director
We have talked ourselves into a mid-engine Corvette being expensive, I guess because some think Corvettes are Ferrari competitors. All while ignoring the most successful (sales) mid-engine cars (Boxster/Cayman) which are priced LIKE a Corvette.
03-07-2017, 06:24 PM
#75
^^^ When the C8 ME car goes into full production, it will be priced the same as all others that can before it. That is, if you can afford a C7Z, you will also be able to afford a C8 ME.
For the record, I hope you are right. I would love if they produced both. Going forward, with fuel standards and such, I don't think we will be THAT blessed. You better hope they keep one...never mind two different iterations of the car. GM is not Porsche. That is, GM cannot get away with producing multiple variants of the corvette and slapping ridiculously crazy prices on each variant...and STILL expect people to buy them. Porsche has somehow managed to brainwash buyers into paying more for less (performance anyway)...and doing so over multiple product variants....and I am Porsche guy. It's mindboggling.
For the record, I hope you are right. I would love if they produced both. Going forward, with fuel standards and such, I don't think we will be THAT blessed. You better hope they keep one...never mind two different iterations of the car. GM is not Porsche. That is, GM cannot get away with producing multiple variants of the corvette and slapping ridiculously crazy prices on each variant...and STILL expect people to buy them. Porsche has somehow managed to brainwash buyers into paying more for less (performance anyway)...and doing so over multiple product variants....and I am Porsche guy. It's mindboggling.
Last edited by Steve Garrett; 03-07-2017 at 09:19 PM. Reason: No need to re-quote the previous post, especially if you're the next person posting.
03-11-2017, 08:35 AM
#76
Race Director
^^^ When the C8 ME car goes into full production, it will be priced the same as all others that can before it. That is, if you can afford a C7Z, you will also be able to afford a C8 ME.
For the record, I hope you are right. I would love if they produced both. Going forward, with fuel standards and such, I don't think we will be THAT blessed. You better hope they keep one...never mind two different iterations of the car. GM is not Porsche. That is, GM cannot get away with producing multiple variants of the corvette and slapping ridiculously crazy prices on each variant...and STILL expect people to buy them. Porsche has somehow managed to brainwash buyers into paying more for less (performance anyway)...and doing so over multiple product variants....and I am Porsche guy. It's mindboggling.
For the record, I hope you are right. I would love if they produced both. Going forward, with fuel standards and such, I don't think we will be THAT blessed. You better hope they keep one...never mind two different iterations of the car. GM is not Porsche. That is, GM cannot get away with producing multiple variants of the corvette and slapping ridiculously crazy prices on each variant...and STILL expect people to buy them. Porsche has somehow managed to brainwash buyers into paying more for less (performance anyway)...and doing so over multiple product variants....and I am Porsche guy. It's mindboggling.
they'll absolutely start the ME car in the 150k range maybe a little lower or higher. the C8 may even be conventional layout depending on ME sales. truth is why would GM start low to go lower?
they'll come in high and see what happens. can always discount, tough to increase more than pennies if they miss... they do it now every year..
03-11-2017, 02:02 PM
#77
what is wrong with this statement as a general approach from tadge rather than one where he says something that is obviously not true?
"general motors is ALWAYS working on new models and new projects, most of them several years in advance of their planned release. sometimes, new models are rushed into development and production such as was the case with the solstice. other times, they are developed over many years before release. sometimes they get cancelled and never reach production. when we announce their release, then you will know the truth. otherwise, NO COMMENT."
anybody with even the slightest awareness of the real world knows that tadge is not going to tell the truth about upcoming plans and projects until after the official release announcement. then he will release a torrent of p.r. and verbal technical details. end of story.
"general motors is ALWAYS working on new models and new projects, most of them several years in advance of their planned release. sometimes, new models are rushed into development and production such as was the case with the solstice. other times, they are developed over many years before release. sometimes they get cancelled and never reach production. when we announce their release, then you will know the truth. otherwise, NO COMMENT."
anybody with even the slightest awareness of the real world knows that tadge is not going to tell the truth about upcoming plans and projects until after the official release announcement. then he will release a torrent of p.r. and verbal technical details. end of story.
Last edited by senah; 03-12-2017 at 06:40 AM.
03-11-2017, 02:05 PM
#78
^^^ When the C8 ME car goes into full production, it will be priced the same as all others that can before it. That is, if you can afford a C7Z, you will also be able to afford a C8 ME.
Going forward, with fuel standards and such, I don't think we will be THAT blessed.
Going forward, with fuel standards and such, I don't think we will be THAT blessed.
president set to roll back fuel economy mandate!
Last edited by senah; 03-11-2017 at 02:09 PM.
03-11-2017, 02:28 PM
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gm is a car company. think c6z06. then the ZR1.. even the carbon Z06.
they'll absolutely start the ME car in the 150k range maybe a little lower or higher. the C8 may even be conventional layout depending on ME sales. truth is why would GM start low to go lower?
they'll come in high and see what happens. can always discount, tough to increase more than pennies if they miss... they do it now every year..
they'll absolutely start the ME car in the 150k range maybe a little lower or higher. the C8 may even be conventional layout depending on ME sales. truth is why would GM start low to go lower?
they'll come in high and see what happens. can always discount, tough to increase more than pennies if they miss... they do it now every year..
I agree with Tony here. The mid-engine (which is NOT a C8) should come in around $150,000-$160,000. The C8 will be improvements on the current C7 platform.
03-14-2017, 02:51 AM
#80
Harlan and Tadge can't ever talk of future offerings. Whether they admit or don't admit to a new mid-engine Corvette isn't going to change anything, except they get to continue their employment with GM. Just bear in mind that over 400,000 sq ft was added to Bowling Green Assembly. The official word is this is the new paint shop. Realistically, a 50 to 75 thousand square foot addition to the existing paint dept. would be more believable. What do you think they will do with the rest of the new addition? Logic and common sense would point to additional production capacity. Also, the Corvette Racing team run by Pratt and Miller has stated every other car they are competing against is mid or rear engine; and the existing front engine platform is running as fast as possible given the engine and weight handicap they are running. This all seems to point to a new mid engine platform being needed to stay competitive. However, Tadge and Harlan will deny everything until there is actually a new mid engine Corvette announced. That is OK, because I do not want to see these guys fired for talking about future product