What I was told & what I think
03-19-2017, 03:19 PM
#21
E-Ray, 3LZ, ZER, LIFT
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At the LA auto show last November, I met a lady from Detroit who works for Chevy, specifically in marketing for Corvette and Camaro. We spoke for 20 minutes, and she imparted to me the following. If all goes as planned, the C8 will be a mid engine turbo charged V8, and will be introduced as a 2019 model at the 2018 Detroit auto show next January. Production should start late summer or early fall of 2018. Pricing should start at no more than $5000.00 above the C7, hopefully less. The mid engine C8 will have a dual clutch gear box. She did not know if a manual gear box will or will not be offered, and did not know if a front engine Vette will still be offered, and, if so, for how long. Her guess is that if the 2019 model year offers both mid and front engine Corvettes, 2019 would be the last year of a front engine car. But that is just her guess.
All of the above needs to be taken with a grain of salt. I am just repeating what I was told.
All of the above needs to be taken with a grain of salt. I am just repeating what I was told.
Chevy folks and vendors are sworn to secrecy with threat of being fired or cut off as a supplier for leaking info- but if it’s gong to be leaked it will be a marketing type and I hate to say, a female! Spent half my carrier in R&D and the other half as one of them (male that is!) 
Recall when we switched brand name and machine/logo colors we stopped all visits to the factory for 4 months! Gave the transition project (literature, business cards, launch logistics and advertizing etc etc) to my best guy but was I worried about “Mary!"
Glad my wife doesn’t read the forum! It worked and was a big surprise to distributors, customers and the industry. Her mid engine Vette statements agree with my “guesses” except I “predict” that the first Cadillac version will sell for $125,000 to $150,000. That will be justified based on a Bang & Olufsen audio, glove leather seats and those bells and whistles a Cadillac owner (and a few Vette owners) want. For the low volumes that will sell, gives GM a chance to work out production and not loose money!
I predict the cheaper Vette version that will follow in ~2 years will be a 4 cam, 24 valve ~3.6 Liter V6! That high profile engine would not fit in a low hood front engine car. It's needed to improve efficiency and since the EPA drive cycle for mpg calculations doesn't cause it to operate at high rpm, it will get it's max power up at 7500 to 8000 rpm! Since both intake and exhaust cams can be varied independently they can gain the power at the high end. A 10 speed auto can be programmed to give great mpg if driven easy and altered for aggressive driving.
I am concerned that it will be only a dual clutch manual/auto with no 3rd peddle (or worse just a GM built slush box!) No way they will offer a conventional clutch version, too much design work for the vendor with the volumes of a 3rd peddle trans declining at a fast rate (in 2014 when I got my Z51 there were ~50% standard shifts, now ~23%. Granted a lot of gearheads buying in 2014.)
There will be a high HP twin turbo version offered but at a much higher price to keep the average corporate mpg high! Volumes are easily controlled with price!
Well some say Nostradamus was crazy, we’ll see.
Last edited by JerryU; 03-19-2017 at 03:37 PM.
03-20-2017, 10:50 AM
#23
Burning Brakes
[QUOTE=JerryU;1594333966]
....Her mid engine Vette statements agree with my “guesses” except I “predict” that the first Cadillac version will sell for $125,000 to $150,000. That will be justified based on a Bang & Olufsen audio, glove leather seats and those bells and whistles a Cadillac owner (and a few Vette owners) want. For the low volumes that will sell, gives GM a chance to work out production and not loose money!
I predict the cheaper Vette version that will follow in ~2 years will be a 4 cam, 24 valve ~3.6 Liter V6! That high profile engine would not fit in a low hood front engine car. It's needed to improve efficiency and since the EPA drive cycle for mpg calculations doesn't cause it to operate at high rpm, it will get it's max power up at 7500 to 8000 rpm! Since both intake and exhaust cams can be varied independently they can gain the power at the high end. A 10 speed auto can be programmed to give great mpg if driven easy and altered for aggressive driving.
I am concerned that it will be only a dual clutch manual/auto with no 3rd peddle (or worse just a GM built slush box!) No way they will offer a conventional clutch version, too much design work for the vendor with the volumes of a 3rd peddle trans declining at a fast rate (in 2014 when I got my Z51 there were ~50% standard shifts, now ~23%. Granted a lot of gearheads buying in 2014.)
...Unfortunately. Caddy first..... And as a semi-tradionalist I know it's only a matter of time before the 3rd pedal goes the way of the dinosaur and the Vette gets stuck with a 6 cyl Turbo....
The iconic V8 sports car, we all grew up admiring and having a love affair with, may very well become extinct before I do. And I never thought that would happen.....
Technology -- Sic Itur Ad Astra (Such is the way to the Stars)....
....Her mid engine Vette statements agree with my “guesses” except I “predict” that the first Cadillac version will sell for $125,000 to $150,000. That will be justified based on a Bang & Olufsen audio, glove leather seats and those bells and whistles a Cadillac owner (and a few Vette owners) want. For the low volumes that will sell, gives GM a chance to work out production and not loose money!
I predict the cheaper Vette version that will follow in ~2 years will be a 4 cam, 24 valve ~3.6 Liter V6! That high profile engine would not fit in a low hood front engine car. It's needed to improve efficiency and since the EPA drive cycle for mpg calculations doesn't cause it to operate at high rpm, it will get it's max power up at 7500 to 8000 rpm! Since both intake and exhaust cams can be varied independently they can gain the power at the high end. A 10 speed auto can be programmed to give great mpg if driven easy and altered for aggressive driving.
I am concerned that it will be only a dual clutch manual/auto with no 3rd peddle (or worse just a GM built slush box!) No way they will offer a conventional clutch version, too much design work for the vendor with the volumes of a 3rd peddle trans declining at a fast rate (in 2014 when I got my Z51 there were ~50% standard shifts, now ~23%. Granted a lot of gearheads buying in 2014.)
...Unfortunately. Caddy first..... And as a semi-tradionalist I know it's only a matter of time before the 3rd pedal goes the way of the dinosaur and the Vette gets stuck with a 6 cyl Turbo.... The iconic V8 sports car, we all grew up admiring and having a love affair with, may very well become extinct before I do. And I never thought that would happen.....
Technology -- Sic Itur Ad Astra (Such is the way to the Stars)....
03-20-2017, 05:21 PM
#24
E-Ray, 3LZ, ZER, LIFT
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^^^^
One reason I have an M7 Grand Sport on order! Loved my September 2013 built Z51 C7 but wanted a new one that I cold shift when I wanted while I still can! Will keep this one a while
One reason I have an M7 Grand Sport on order! Loved my September 2013 built Z51 C7 but wanted a new one that I cold shift when I wanted while I still can! Will keep this one a while
Last edited by JerryU; 03-20-2017 at 05:22 PM.
03-20-2017, 07:41 PM
#25
2nd Gear
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It's pretty much an open secret that Tremec created its new 7-speed DCT for the Corvette, isn't it? I can't imagine them creating a unit like that with no OEM commitments in hand.
Note on the product info page it specifically says the unit can be packaged as a transaxle.
Note on the product info page it specifically says the unit can be packaged as a transaxle.
03-23-2017, 08:35 AM
#26
Team Owner
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St. Jude Donor '15
"In honor of jpee"
03-25-2017, 01:53 PM
#27
Since the bean counters typically have a significant say in what goes into a car, this really comes down to a numbers game. IMO (for all that's worth), they cannot afford to get rid of a car that still sells 10s of thousands of units a year. Not to say they are not building a mid-engine... I just believe it will be a one off like the Ford GT. I may be very wrong, but I can't see the C8 going to mid-engine exclusively. For those of us that daily drive our Corvettes, this ruins the practicality of the car. I like the fact that I can put a golf bag in the back with no issue. Also, I still love to go to the track and easily fit all my tools and gear in the back. Although a mid engine would be a great, fun car, there is still improvements they could do with a front engine. Off the top of my head, increased NA HP, coilover suspension, improved performance management, better tires and brakes, less weight, etc.
Last edited by imatur; 03-25-2017 at 02:41 PM.
03-25-2017, 03:32 PM
#28
Team Owner
Since the bean counters typically have a significant say in what goes into a car, this really comes down to a numbers game. IMO (for all that's worth), they cannot afford to get rid of a car that still sells 10s of thousands of units a year. Not to say they are not building a mid-engine... I just believe it will be a one off like the Ford GT. I may be very wrong, but I can't see the C8 going to mid-engine exclusively. For those of us that daily drive our Corvettes, this ruins the practicality of the car. I like the fact that I can put a golf bag in the back with no issue. Also, I still love to go to the track and easily fit all my tools and gear in the back. Although a mid engine would be a great, fun car, there is still improvements they could do with a front engine. Off the top of my head, increased NA HP, coilover suspension, improved performance management, better tires and brakes, less weight, etc.
My C6 Z06 is a good example also. It is the car I drive on long road trips to the backwoods to see our great scenery. It doesn't have the fancy mag ride, but the stock suspension, or a fancy dashboard or seats, yet my 74 year old body isn't beat to hell when I get back home. I also don't need to ship tomorrows underwear change to the next motel by FedEx as it had loads of usable cargo space. And I can get 29 MPG average on a 2,500 mile road trip(best is a 33.0 MPG average on a 450 mile trip from Springfield, MO to Natchez, MS).
The $157K 2017 mid engine NSX can't do that(carry enough stuff in the rear for a two week road trip while getting terrific fuel economy).
I'm not sold on a mid engine Corvette as the ONLY Corvette model. I can see it as an expensive low volume supplemental model to a front engine base Corvette model, but not as a replacement.
When I need to drive just to Walmart, I don't need an expensive mid engine Corvette with a small cargo space to carry my milk and bread home. I have a 4 door sedan for such mundane duties such as that, that sips fuel in the city as well as the NSX(plus I can throw a bale of straw in the trunk and still have room for groceries in the back seat). I have my Z06 for the long road trips, that carries more stuff and gets better gas mileage on the highway than the mid engine NSX.
Last edited by JoesC5; 03-25-2017 at 03:37 PM.
03-25-2017, 06:45 PM
#29
E-Ray, 3LZ, ZER, LIFT
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It's pretty much an open secret that Tremec created its new 7-speed DCT for the Corvette, isn't it? I can't imagine them creating a unit like that with no OEM commitments in hand.
Note on the product info page it specifically says the unit can be packaged as a transaxle.
Note on the product info page it specifically says the unit can be packaged as a transaxle.
Last edited by JerryU; 03-25-2017 at 06:47 PM.
03-25-2017, 07:54 PM
#30
Race Director
Why does anyone think it would cost more money to produce a lt1 powered mid engine car than a front mid engine car? Other than a transaxle the cost should be about the same.
Figure 5 grand extra for the transaxle.
Of course the mega hp version will cost more than today's z06 but that's to be expected.
Hopefully an lt1 powered version will be available for those of us who don't want to spend ridiculous amounts of money on any car...
As long as the price doesn't rise too far then the volume will be the usual 30k annual units.
I do believe the most expensive ultra exotic material version with the most powerful engine will release first.
Just my opinion.
Figure 5 grand extra for the transaxle.
Of course the mega hp version will cost more than today's z06 but that's to be expected.
Hopefully an lt1 powered version will be available for those of us who don't want to spend ridiculous amounts of money on any car...
As long as the price doesn't rise too far then the volume will be the usual 30k annual units.
I do believe the most expensive ultra exotic material version with the most powerful engine will release first.
Just my opinion.
03-25-2017, 11:53 PM
#31
Race Director
Why are people thinking a mid-engine car will not have any cargo space? The design will allow cargo space in front (Corvair like) and the area behind the engine could also be accessible for limited storage. Back in the late fifties Chevrolet designed a totally different engine layout than the existing Impala and then sold this rear engine car at a lower price (profit per unit was lower though). If a totally different car could be designed in the fifties costing less than the larger standard layout, why with today's modern computer software can't this be accomplished now? 😳
03-26-2017, 09:01 AM
#32
Melting Slicks
Why does anyone think it would cost more money to produce a lt1 powered mid engine car than a front mid engine car? Other than a transaxle the cost should be about the same.
As long as the price doesn't rise too far then the volume will be the usual 30k annual units.
Just my opinion.
As long as the price doesn't rise too far then the volume will be the usual 30k annual units.
Just my opinion.
Without volume the engineering and tooling costs per vehicle go up considerably, and there is nothing in the marketing research or real world experience that shows a mid-engine vehicle will sell in those volumes.
If you have been in a 488 Ferrari, which is pretty close to what a mid-engine Corvette would strive to be, you know that the engine behind your head is louder that it is under the hood, storage space becomes much smaller and putting things like golf clubs in it is a no go - nor is even one standard sized 22" luggage (C7 fits 2 + other bags), we would have to lose the targa top as it could not be stored in the vehicle when removed and a convertible is not possible.
If you plan on 10k units per year (and that might be very optimistic given sales of other ME cars), the engineering and tooling costs will go up 2.5x - so if we assume the current tooling and engineering costs are close to the reported $20k per car (C7), that will jump to $50k, making the minimum MSRP just to recoup tooling $87k, and that doesn't factor in the increased costs of the parts from suppliers due to the lower volumes.
03-26-2017, 11:52 PM
#33
Race Director
I think the biggest flaw in your logic is that volume will be in the 30k unit per year range - the price is directly dependent on projected volumes - GM's last 3 generation planning has revolved around a six year 150,000 unit design cycle, with those generations (C7 not yet done) going longer than that and selling more total units.
Without volume the engineering and tooling costs per vehicle go up considerably, and there is nothing in the marketing research or real world experience that shows a mid-engine vehicle will sell in those volumes.
If you have been in a 488 Ferrari, which is pretty close to what a mid-engine Corvette would strive to be, you know that the engine behind your head is louder that it is under the hood, storage space becomes much smaller and putting things like golf clubs in it is a no go - nor is even one standard sized 22" luggage (C7 fits 2 + other bags), we would have to lose the targa top as it could not be stored in the vehicle when removed and a convertible is not possible.
If you plan on 10k units per year (and that might be very optimistic given sales of other ME cars), the engineering and tooling costs will go up 2.5x - so if we assume the current tooling and engineering costs are close to the reported $20k per car (C7), that will jump to $50k, making the minimum MSRP just to recoup tooling $87k, and that doesn't factor in the increased costs of the parts from suppliers due to the lower volumes.
Without volume the engineering and tooling costs per vehicle go up considerably, and there is nothing in the marketing research or real world experience that shows a mid-engine vehicle will sell in those volumes.
If you have been in a 488 Ferrari, which is pretty close to what a mid-engine Corvette would strive to be, you know that the engine behind your head is louder that it is under the hood, storage space becomes much smaller and putting things like golf clubs in it is a no go - nor is even one standard sized 22" luggage (C7 fits 2 + other bags), we would have to lose the targa top as it could not be stored in the vehicle when removed and a convertible is not possible.
If you plan on 10k units per year (and that might be very optimistic given sales of other ME cars), the engineering and tooling costs will go up 2.5x - so if we assume the current tooling and engineering costs are close to the reported $20k per car (C7), that will jump to $50k, making the minimum MSRP just to recoup tooling $87k, and that doesn't factor in the increased costs of the parts from suppliers due to the lower volumes.
Personally at a base price of around 62 grand base price I think GM would sell a boat load of them.
As far as golf clubs? I'm assuming they would fit in the front seat? I don't golf so o really don't know.
I would really miss the targa roof so I hope you are wrong on that point.
It's one of the features I've grown to love after three new corvettes...one being z06 that I didn't realize I missed that feature because I loved the z06.
Still I want that open air experience.
Considering Audi s R8, ferraris 488. Mclaren and a host of other mid engine cars manage a open air driving experience...I would think Chevy could figure it out as well.
Luggage? Corvette sold fitted luggage with the launch of the c7...I'm sure GM would be able to sell fitted luggage for a mid engine corvette...
Two trunks with a mid engine car do offer the opportunity to pack a lot of goods..
I daily drive my corvettes and I appreciate the front engine transaxle layout, the lift off roof, the tremendous trunk...but still I would be willing to give up one large trunk for two small ones if it meant a mid engine layout...
Around 35 years ago I owned a turbocharged lancia scorpion and although it pales in comparison to today's corvettes it had its charms...btw it had a removable roof solution that was quite ingenious and that was designed forty years ago...
Who knows what solutions a company as slick as GM can produce...
I'm willing to bet this will be world class...
Besides the alpha chassis ZL1 truly is nipping at the heals of the corvette...as it stands today from a performance standpoint...
Time for GM to differentiate its two performance machines from chevrolet...
Just a guess on my part and we will see soon enough who is right...
I do believe an ultra exotic version of the mid engine supercar will release first to capture the peak demand period of the corvette ...maybe even while a front engine c7 is still being produced...along with a Cadillac exotic...
I believe Cadillac is funding the expansion at bowling green much the same way Cadillac funded the c6 as it shared underpinnings with the Cadillac XLR..
Cadillac XLR customers or potiential customers were I am sure polled for what they were disappointed with their expensive version of a slower corvette c6...
I doubt Cadillac will. Make the same mistake...
Hence the improved and enlarged paint shop to improve paint finish. I am sure XLR customers were disappointed with their cars quality lapses compared to the Mercedes SL at the time...
The c5 was a seven year run I believe as Cadillac funded the development of the c6 as it was the basis of the XLR...
New vibrant and lean GM today could theoretically shorten that 7 years by a year and we would all be right..
The 1997 c5 released in 1997 I believe and ran until 2004...
The c7 released in 2013 calendar year as a 2014 model year...if I remember correctly...
2019 doesn't sound quite as far fetched...considering the c7 was designed for a fraction of what was originally planned for the mid engine c7...and part of that delevlopment cost for the mid engine c7 could have been wiped out in the bankruptcy....
Add in cadillacs involvement in bankrolling the c8...for a shared expensive platform and we might all be in for a fun surprise ...maybe as early as sometime in calendar year 2019..
Just fun shooting the breeze with other auto enthusiasts