Curious about what happens in a wet sump?
05-25-2006, 04:35 PM
#1
Le Mans Master
Thread Starter
Curious about what happens in a wet sump?
I've recently given some thought to ways of testing
what happens in a wet sump during lateral and accel
loads.
The thinking was along the lines of fabbing some kind of sled
or centrifuge. But a much simpler approach comes from
a paper presented at AETC 1997 by Bill Hancock (Superflow).
He is referring to evaluating dry sump tanks but it is
still a useful suggestion.
what happens in a wet sump during lateral and accel
loads.
The thinking was along the lines of fabbing some kind of sled
or centrifuge. But a much simpler approach comes from
a paper presented at AETC 1997 by Bill Hancock (Superflow).
He is referring to evaluating dry sump tanks but it is
still a useful suggestion.
Originally Posted by Bill Hancock
To get an idea what is happening, make a clear plastic container
and strap it in the race car. Mount a video camera on the
roll cage and aim it at the jug. Make sure that the top is
on the container, then go out and make a few laps. You will
go home then and fix your tank and probably get a few new
ideas in the process.
and strap it in the race car. Mount a video camera on the
roll cage and aim it at the jug. Make sure that the top is
on the container, then go out and make a few laps. You will
go home then and fix your tank and probably get a few new
ideas in the process.
05-26-2006, 09:36 AM
#3
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Check back issues of "Stock Car" magazine. Several years ago they ran a test by bolting oil pans to the bed of a pick up truck and then photographed what happened as they accelerated, cornered and braked. If I remeber correctly they bolted a plexiglass cover on the pans to view the interior. Results were pretty much what was expected. Oil flying everywhere. FWIW.
Larry
Larry
05-26-2006, 11:47 AM
#4
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There was an engine builder who put a plexiglass viewing plate into a pan and then ran the engine and visually viewed the oil. He said the oil formed a huge foamy wad spinning around with the crank. Crank scrapers and windage trays are a must.
05-26-2006, 12:56 PM
#5
Le Mans Master
Thread Starter
I'm asking because I am having another pan built and am interested
in some method of testing the performance of the new pan against
that of the existing aftermarket RR pan currently on the car.
I know how to record the oil level under track conditions, but the
limitation here is that I am referencing from the drain plug at the
pass rear corner of the pan.
I'm interested to see first-hand how the baffling and sump design
manages oil movement. Especially under braking. A Solo event
I participate in has 'brake to turn' and 'brake to a halt' segments
from 100+ MPH that result in periods of -1G (+/-) for 6+ seconds.
Oil entrainment in the windage of the rotating assembly is something
I don't have the resources to study. The key factor of this for my
purposes is that it results in less oil in the sump, as does oil held up
in the valley and heads. To compensate, I feel I would check oil
movement using a smaller quantity of fluid. Say, two quarts instead
of six, maybe less. With this little fluid does the pickup remain
submerged when lateral and accel/deccel loads are simulated?
To repeat, I merely want to compare two pans to each other to get
a sense of whether there are any significant benefits between one
or the other for my particular needs.
.
in some method of testing the performance of the new pan against
that of the existing aftermarket RR pan currently on the car.
I know how to record the oil level under track conditions, but the
limitation here is that I am referencing from the drain plug at the
pass rear corner of the pan.
I'm interested to see first-hand how the baffling and sump design
manages oil movement. Especially under braking. A Solo event
I participate in has 'brake to turn' and 'brake to a halt' segments
from 100+ MPH that result in periods of -1G (+/-) for 6+ seconds.
Oil entrainment in the windage of the rotating assembly is something
I don't have the resources to study. The key factor of this for my
purposes is that it results in less oil in the sump, as does oil held up
in the valley and heads. To compensate, I feel I would check oil
movement using a smaller quantity of fluid. Say, two quarts instead
of six, maybe less. With this little fluid does the pickup remain
submerged when lateral and accel/deccel loads are simulated?
To repeat, I merely want to compare two pans to each other to get
a sense of whether there are any significant benefits between one
or the other for my particular needs.
.
05-26-2006, 01:12 PM
#6
Le Mans Master
Thread Starter
Incidently, I came across a Car Craft article that followed the
K.I.S. methodology. They don't make any great claims but
IMO the approach has some merit for my comparison test.
It is interesting to look at the pictures of the pickup, relative
to the oil level when the pan is banked at 45º. Differences
between pans in the fore/aft placement of the pickup probably
affect suitability for applications. The presence, absence and
configuration of baffling at the front of the sump would determine
how fast and what quantity pours out into the parts washer.
.
K.I.S. methodology. They don't make any great claims but
IMO the approach has some merit for my comparison test.
It is interesting to look at the pictures of the pickup, relative
to the oil level when the pan is banked at 45º. Differences
between pans in the fore/aft placement of the pickup probably
affect suitability for applications. The presence, absence and
configuration of baffling at the front of the sump would determine
how fast and what quantity pours out into the parts washer.
.
05-26-2006, 02:17 PM
#7
Melting Slicks
Originally Posted by Slalom4me
Incidently, I came across a Car Craft article that followed the
K.I.S. methodology. They don't make any great claims but
IMO the approach has some merit for my comparison test.
K.I.S. methodology. They don't make any great claims but
IMO the approach has some merit for my comparison test.
05-26-2006, 07:25 PM
#8
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When I raced oval track stock cars we never had time to look at gauges, so I wired in a big red light on the dash that would come on at some determined low oil pressure. It seems impossible to monitor an oil pressure gauge to determine if the pickup is being uncovered. A momentary loss would hardly make the needle blip. But a red light would flash.
6 sec. of -1g seems unlikely. My 100-0 stops, while I've never clocked them seem like 3 seconds or less.
Unless you are studying this for some academic interest, it seems that a good pan and an accumulator would certainly keep you covered.
6 sec. of -1g seems unlikely. My 100-0 stops, while I've never clocked them seem like 3 seconds or less.
Unless you are studying this for some academic interest, it seems that a good pan and an accumulator would certainly keep you covered.
05-27-2006, 08:02 AM
#9
Le Mans Master
Thread Starter
The interest is practical and economic, rather than academic.
can afford to go.
You are right about the duration/decelleration - the trace shows
6 seconds of braking but only a portion is in the vicinity of -1 G.
I should have worded the statement in the post above a lot better.
.
Oil Light on heavy braking with Canton Pan (L98)
C4 Accelerometer Data
How is maximum protection from an accumulator ensured over time?
I know speed costs money, I'm trying to determine how fast IC4 Accelerometer Data
How is maximum protection from an accumulator ensured over time?
can afford to go.
You are right about the duration/decelleration - the trace shows
6 seconds of braking but only a portion is in the vicinity of -1 G.
I should have worded the statement in the post above a lot better.
.
Last edited by Slalom4me; 05-27-2006 at 08:07 AM.