meldog21

Since I drive the Z06 for fun(well that and commuting) I thought I'd pass on some observations on driving costs that I thought of when I read a recent post by Vetter Atl about auto X.

Auto X:
Almost no chance of wrecking your car
$35, +or-
2 hours of standing on the track
4 minutes of driving
not much skill gained or practiced

The last auto X I went to was 2 hours from my house, I went in the morning and came back the same evening with no hotel cost.

Costs:
Event with t shirt = $35
Gas - 250 miles averaging 15 mpg(including track time) = $55
Tires and consumables = not much
Travel and corner working = 6 hours
Cost per minute of driving $90/4 minutes= $22.50
Wear and tear on the car = not much

HPDE:
Yes you can destroy your car, or even die
$200, +or-
They might have a 10 minute download(debrief) that you'd have to attend after the first session
At least 2.5 hours of driving, you will learn a lot and get a good workout. I go through multiple t shirts because I'm sweating my butt off.

The last HPDE I went to was 3 hours from my house. I trailered the car because of the possiblitly of me or one of my friends damaging our cars if we go off track. I leave the night before and stay at a local motel so I can be there when the gates open at 0700 and get a good pit spot. I use up one set of tires, and a set of rotors for every 2 trackdays. Gas at the track is $5 a gallon. I did 3 hours and 40 minutes of driving at this event.

Costs:
Event with no t shirt = $170(including annual membership with GGLC)
Gas in the van $148 plus car gas at the track $85 = $233
Tires and consumables .5 set of tires = $600, .5 set of rotors = $50
Hotel split with buddy = $35
Travel = 6 hours
Cost per minute of driving $1088/220 minutes = $4.95
Wear and tear on the car = I don't know but I'm sure it will start to add up after a while


Just for comparison: I drove the local indoor go kart track today during their lunch time all you can drive special. 1200-1430 for $75

Chance of crashing your car, burning up tires, or using a lot of gas = 0.
Cost of hotel and consumables = 0
I arrived a little early and drove a little past the end time so I probably did 130 minutes of driving counting breaks. You get great practice and a good workout, I use up multiple t shirts because I'm sweating my butt off.
Cost per minute of driving $75/130 minutes = .57


So the local go karts cost 1/10 what a trackday with the Z06 costs me, and an auto X costs 4 times more than what a trackday costs; in dollars per minute of driving.

I think I'm going to spend more time in the go karts, and no more time doing auto X's.

BTW today I got an 18:756 on a track where the track record is 18:654. I guess the driving and practice pays off.

Dog

Falcon

That's some interesting analysis. But if you're seeking the least expensive activity, staying at home and reading a book, that's about as cheap as it gets.

69autoXr

So you beat everyone and set FTD that day right? No more skill to gain?

Barbara_S

If that's true for you, you aren't doing it right. Tires have been costing me $800 for 100 miles of racing. Maybe it's not significant compared to HPDE but it adds to my budget.

Lancer033

My autoX experience has been very different from yours. Typically we have a smaller group, 15-20 cars tops, and do 1 practice run, 3 official runs for time, then as many as you want after that until dark. On Sunday, do it all over again. There are weekends that I've lost count of how runs I've gotten. The whole weekend is 30euro.

almost no chance or wrecking you car gives you a lot of room to really push your limits. I tend to hold back on the track since I don't want to risk a wreck, where in AutoX, I'll try stuff out with the knowledge that the only thing hurt if it doesn't work is my ego. I have found the autoX experience to be a much more effective at teaching me how to control a car at the limits than track time for much less money. Expecially after you factor in wear & tear on the vehicle

I will agree with you on the go-carts. The only down side to that are the blisters on my hands if I forget to bring gloves and the bruises on my body, but it is a whole lot of fun.

Timz06

I think auto x is a good way to get started in performance driving. Great way to learn car control. Then after a year or so autox, try a few de's. You'll need the car control skills if anything goes wrong (a skill many do not have.) The next step after de's would be racing, a natural progression.

TedDBere

Apples and oranges. Why not throw in drag racing too?

They all take a great deal of skill to do well and each has their plus' and minus'.

I just find it's interesting that once or twice a year some track guy feels the need to backhand autox'ing. Why is that? I've never heard an autoxer bash the track events. In fact most autoxers seem to like the track stuff too but don't want the expense or risk associated with that kind of event.

And autox'ing takes a great deal of skill that can not be made up by throwing money at the car, it's all about the driver, IMHO. I spent my first year spinning my car and learning how to, not only control and/or avoid the spin, but also what to do when I do spin to stop the car safely without damaging the car. I'm glad that skill was not learned on a track at high speed with walls around, or even on the street as many find out the limits of their vette the hard way. In fact I actually started autox'ing in order to learn how to aggressively drive my new car without damaging it, and I ended up getting upset that mini's and miata's were actually faster than I was in a vette. So upset that I decided to keep improving the driver...now they don't beat me anymore!

Sure some autox events suck and if your first event is one of those you'll probably never come back. For those who want to try it I'd recommend finding a local vette autox'er in the local vette club and ask them what local event would be good for you to get your feet wet. That way you'll be introduced to a well organized event with lots of runs, and they'll probably join you to show you the ropes.

And I've seen what happens when the track guys and the autox guys get together for some go-karting! Good autoxers have great lines on kart tracks!

SouthernSon

[QUOTE not much skill gained or practiced

Dog[/QUOTE]

At first, I figured you don't really know that much about autocross. Then, upon further reflection, I have to wonder just how much you know about anything of which you profess........

If one were to seek knowledge of the different venues of competition, I think perhaps they would be better off to attend the events themselves and speak with those that are good at it and know how to gain skill and what aspects to practice..... Perhaps the next expense you should consider should be for a good 'evolution school'.

By the way, if you don't know what expenses are normally suffered in HPDE, then you really don't have much experience at it.....

StArrow68

All well and good about skills to be gained in auto-x, I still go to a few a year. However, after about 10 total over 3 years, I've never gotten more than 10min's of track time in a day. That is why track folks don't get auto-x. How do you develop skill when you are not in the seat? Ok, lots to be learned walking a track, even true on road courses, and getting input will always help but it gets back to the 20 to 1 or greater seat time advantage on road courses. Now, why the bash on auto-x, I can't say, I just don't do it a lot unless I know the crowd and want to join in making someone else feel better. Or the last time I went and 4 guys signed up in the first group after a night of rain so we could help dry the track so the gals could run later for good times.
Randy

Red5

You guys crackme up. For some reason you can send a guy out on a track for a day and suddenly he is better than any meer autocrosser. My guess is that you also suck on the open track.

In case you have not noticed good autocrossers tend to make for Great road racers. Great road racers tend to suck at autocrossing.

Most of us don't road race because we simply don't have road race tracks near where we live. My weekends usually start in a a couple of hours.... on the boat, hit a few parties on the islands between Friday and Saturday. Come home early on Sunday, hop in the vette (already prepped with tires on trailor) drive about 20 minutes to a near by autocross. Get 6 runs... Cost is $20.00..DOMINATE the feild, set FTD Raw time and take 1st in PAX. Then grab a few buddies and head back to the water. Party like rock stars, tell a bunch more lies. Then wake up and go to work on Monday.

I can't fit all that in if I have to travel 4-8 hours to get to the track. And from the way you are talking you don't want me to come lap your ars on the track.

Cashmo

I'll ask, "How much skill does it take to floor it down a long straight at a road course?" In the same amount of time an autocrosser has changed directions & speeds 4-10 times. I love Road America but turn 5 is always the same turn 5. Each day the autox course changes and gives you a new puzzle to solve. Autox is more about the driver while road racers can out spend each other with go-fast parts, test days, etc. When it comes to money, ultimately we all lose that race to Bill Gates anyway.

Note: I do both autox and road racing, love them both but they're both very different. With autox I can afford to get my fix every weekend and my son (jr kart) and wife get to drive instead of sitting there with a stop watch. Wait til you road racer/HPDE guys write off a car, then ask yourself (or your wife) which one sounds more appealing.

On another note, HPDE events where you can only pass on the straights don't teach you race craft. The intensity of the first turn at a packed start or following a guy for 2 laps before figuring out where you can pass him are some of the best parts of road racing.

Jeff

Lancer033

I was doing track days 1st, nothing I had learned from the track days other than the very broad car control concepts did anything to prepare me for AutoX, on the other hand, I was able to take the lessons from autoX and improve my track driving.

Red5

Heck guys, I'm also a boater... And if you have ever owned multiple boats including jet skiis and such then you know where most of my cash has to go. I simply can not afford the time/money it would take to be competitive in road racing. I sure would hate to be as good as I am at racing only to have some member of the lucky sperm club come in and take my trophy cause his grandmother gave him an extra 250k to go have fun with. Thanks, but I'd rather let that same guy blow his wad on the car and have me hand him his perverbial ars on a platter at autocrossing.

Road Racing= Money and money plus a lot of time and a little skill gets you 1st place.

Auto Crossing= Lots of skill and a little money gets you 1st place.

Fast_Toys

This is so true! Seen it many many times. As already said, at autocross events, things happen very fast. There are many more direction changes, braking points etc. You get ZERO practice on a course and only a few runs to master the course. The very next week, the whole thing changes again.

Everything you learn at autocross can be applied to the street since the speeds are restricted to those allowed on the highway.

A road course allows for practice and never really changes. I have to admit the higher speeds are enticing but crashing doesn't appeal to me

ZR1 MK

There is not much to compare between a road course and autocross. Im a track guy, but autocross too. There is plenty of skill involved in each, but track guys dont just "floor it down the straight". Well ,not the serious drivers anyway. Anyone can drive slow or fast at either because of their individual skill level or desire to push a car to certain levels. It does takes much more to push a car at the track. No comparison here. I do have some autocross friends that dont go to tracks because their afraid, but there are plenty that do both.
For me, an autocross is a great opportunity to slide the car around, something not done much at the track. Good show for the spectators too. Im more interested in having fun rather than my times, but I will put a no slide best effert time at the end.
There are course changes for autocross, but if you do enough, you will see the same course in time. Skip a few and you can see the same course from your previous event.

Red5

I'm not knocking road racing... Matter of fact if I lived closer to a track I'd probably be there all the time.. But I don't.


Sliding on an autocross course can be fun and wild. It's a real show highlight and I've done more than my fair share of it. I even considered do a local "drift thing" (But decided not to) But it's not the fastest way around. Took my years to realize that. All this crap about being smooth is being fast turned out to be true... BUT- You must first be fast, then be smooth at being fast.

As per the same course... yes and no.. I design a few coureses for our regeon with a few others. Many of the courses look very similiar and the main parts may look the same. (Especially in space limited areas) However, there is a lot you can do by moving a few cones around in different areas that a good driver will notice. He'll notice because it requires a different line.

Fast_Toys

If you are sliding a car at autocross, you are going slow. The fastest drivers are butter smooth. Everyone that comes out the first few times seems to think that Fast and Furious drifting is the quickest way to go. After they get their asses handed to them by a Miata that is driven well they start to learn the correct way to drive!

Every course is different. If you are seeing the same course, you probably have poor designers or you are not reading the line correctly. Changing one or two cones in the right spots can significantly change a course and the lines you take.

Road Racing is awesome and there definitely are not many direct comparisons to autocross given the higher speeds, chance of serious damage and injury and static courses. However, the point that is noticed many times is that autocrossers are better able to make the transition to road racing and be successful than vice versa. That must say something about the skill set aquired.

ZR1 MK

Sliding isnt going slow, its going slower than not sliding. Its usually about .60 sec on a 60 sec course for me and is still deemed fast.

Fast_Toys

Thats the problem. Sliding "seems" fast but it is slower than not sliding and being smooth. Tires achieve their optimum grip at the point just before the let loose. If you go beyond that, their grip goes way down and you will overheat the tires as well. It also takes time for the car to recover from the slide which costs you time.

The fastest drivers do not slide their cars at autocross. They will be incredibly smooth and the car will never step out. Sliding is only good on gravel for those rally drivers :P

ZR1 MK

I guess you didnt read my original post. Sliding for me is fun and thats the main reason I go to an autocross. Even though I go to have "fun", Im almost always in first place in my class and Im usually in the top 8 out of 60-80 cars that run.
I will never overheat any tires at an autocross. I cant get them warm enough. Temp increases from first to last run with a max temp of 105 degree. The results vary depending on the tires I choose. I have Mich Pilot Sport, Toyo RA1 and Goodyear Slick.