davidfarmer

OK, this is a bit tongue in cheek, but after VIR this weekend, I can't help but share some thoughts on braking. I am absolutely convinced that many people are having brake problems because they are over braking, or simply braking too much.

Here are examples:

1. braking at Nascar bend (kink between 2-3). If you need to brake there, you are driving the wrong line!

2. Braking going into the uphill S's. Again, even on street tires, a brief lift is all you need to settle the car.

3. This is the big one....braking at the end of the back straight. It is amazing how many people brake going DOWN hill before the braking zone, then accelerate up the hill, then brake again as they go through the kink into 14. This one place alone will kill your brakes, as you are making 2 complete braking zones with no time to cool in between. You should hit the brakes at the bottom of the hill and carry them all the way to the entrance to 14.

OK, I'm not picking on you guys that are racers, but people just need to have enough faith in their brakes to use them for stopping the car, NOT for getting a confidence boost at every bend in the road. Extending brake zones, or adding extra ones, simply don't allow your components to cool down.

btw, this was in the Red (instructor), Black (instructor/advance), and Blue (intermediate) groups, NOT the green and yellow beginner groups.

OK, Flame away, I can handle it. Just sharing my 20 years experience with those of you that I know take this stuff seriously!

wallyman424

ok sweet, I do 1 and 2.

for 3, i brake at the bottom of the hill (not too much), let off turn left and then brake hard for 14. i have had to carry the brakes from the bottom of the hill all the way to 14, but that can get pretty hairy sometimes.

davidfarmer

wallyman, we know you are plenty fast......you are not a habitual "overbraker", but you get the idea.

wtknght1

OK Dave, I think I may have a few issues with your statements...nothing personal of course, but I just want to make sure what you're saying...

First, I agree that most people do over brake to a certain degree; however, I brake in between the kink (turn 2) and turn 3 because I do not like the "rim shot" technique thru 2. I know you lose too much speed and don't gain anything. I like to go thru the kink as hard as possible and then open the wheel, squeeze the brakes to set the front end for 3, and then power thru 3. The run from 1 to 3 is longer and faster than from 2 to 4 so sacrificing speed thru 2 to gain some at 3 will get you slower lap times. Also, rim-shoting turn 2 opens you up to get passed there.

On the back straight, I agree that you shouldn't brake coming down the hill...you can wait til the 2 marker (at least, depending of course of what brakes and tires you have...and guts), but I release the brakes and get back on the gas for the little left kink and then get back on the brakes again in the short chute. I pick up a tenth or so doing it that way as opposed to riding the brakes to 14. This is my video from Aug 06.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVES715qL0w

I'm not sure that you can honestly say that there is one line and only one line, but for my car, tires, brakes and driving style, this way is quickest from looking at the data and the many ways I've tried. I've never been beaten there and have the track record. Nobody has ever gotten within 2 seconds of me (in a similar T1 car) and I can turn 2:06s all day long in 90+ degree heat.

I do think that we both agree that most drivers are braking too much instead of getting on them, and then getting off to let them cool as much as possible . I know I probably made those same mistakes starting out too. Take care bud!

Gary2KC5

Dave,
You have enlightened us to a new discussion regarding the brake issue and furthered the performance past just parts. Thanks. Now I need some of your years of experience but not at VIR. I tend to put a 500 mile one way limit on towing to a track so that makes VIR out of range making Road America, Barber Park, Hearland Park, Mid America Motorplex, and the Autobahn CC the tracks of choice for me.

Before offering your advice let me give you some background, I will use RA because I'm pretty sure you have driven RA in the WC car.

Moderate to heavy braking for T1 @ the 4 marker, same in T3 but about 150', then hard hard braking into 5 @ the 4, stab hard and brefily coming up to the bridge for T6, left foot brake slightly before T7, then hard hard braking @ T8 about the 2 marker, moderate braking @ @ 100' for the kink, then hard braking for Canada Corner @ the 3 marker, then hard braking at about 100' for T14.

Speeds are about 20mph faster in the C6Z verses the C5 but pad wear is incredible in the Z and I'm currently coasting into T1 & T5 @ abour 1000' and still burning up a front set of Carbotech XP12's in less than 4 sessions. XP's are down to the rivits not the backing plates.

Please help me be a better steward of my brakes!

BTW: my lap times are low 2:30's

gkmccready

Light and long? Or hard and short? :-)

gfacter

I wasnt at this Event, but have been on the full track a few time this year

1. braking at Nascar bend (kink between 2-3). If you need to brake there, you are driving the wrong line!

Guilty about half the time, not really slowing the car much just comfort braking


2. Braking going into the uphill S's. Again, even on street tires, a brief lift is all you need to settle the car.

See above, something about entering a series or corners at 120+ makes me


3. This is the big one....braking at the end of the back straight.

I am braking much later, like at the 2 maker but manage to slow the car too much then need some throttle, will work on that some more next time.

I ran a 2:13 last time out, I am sure there is more time to be had carrying more speed up the climbing s turns and entering 14.

Oyishdog

somewhat guilty of #3...I take that sort of like chris mentioned above.

nascar bend kink, no brake! throttle control is key there. the uphill esses, the car WILL HOLD entering at 125-130...the difference between streets and R tires will be how much speed you can hold through the esses (and suspension). set the car at the end with minimal braking and then turn into 10 WOT in 4th (takes some getting used to!).

I certainly do not run 2:06 like chris, but can/do run sub 2:10s on clear laps (didnt see many of those this past event)

Wicked Weasel

As a passenger in David's car I can contest that he had no problem slowing the car anywhere on the track with HP+ pads and stock calipers.

It took me 7 sessions before I would not hit the brakes going down the hill on the back straight. It was also then I went from 5-4-3 gear shift to 5-4 gear shift which made it much easier to wait on the brakes (I run 373 gears and lost no time going down the roller coaster). Of course I was still not as far out as David.

In the kink I tapped the brakes just because I felt better, but once or twice I just eased the gas pedal and made it through although I think my speeds were down.

Through the uphill esses I was just on and off the gas pedal until I got over the bump and then I was fully into the gas. Honestly I felt the car ws more stable the more I got into the gas in that section.

Of course having David as my instructor helped me a ton and I figured if he is willing to sit in the passenger seat and say go go go then who am I to argue.

I am sure next time I will push the back straight more, but for the first time out at VIR and seeing lap times around 2.12 with some traffic I was very happy.

davidfarmer

Road America is a different animal... You have 7, 11, and 13A that are "touch and go" turns, but the majority of the RA corners and non-technical, jam and go corners. It still comes down to building speed, coasting into kinks, and as you gain confidence, see if you REALLY need to brake. Often, you don't.

I simply saw a ton of cars running aftermarket or upgraded brakes, and they were using them in all sorts of places that they didn't need to. Just wanted to stress that when used only when essential, brakes will stay cooler and last longer.

sleeper02Z06

I have been tried and found guilty of showing the brake lights ever so slightly just a hint before turn in on the first uphill ess, then carry the throttle all the way up. I don't know why, just do. I'm talking just a touch, so i don't see any heat build up as an issue and I've not been passed going into them so I really never worried about it. Wally saw me do it and I don't think he gained any ground on me all the way up to 10. Just different comfort levels I guess.

Joe

Westwopper

I hit my brake with the left foot before the uphill esses to ensure I will have brakes for turn 10. I am braking at about the 1.5 marker on the back straight and carrying the brake thru the slight left into the right hander. I agree that brake, a little gas, brake seems to feel better, less sliding of the car, but I assumed the prior was faster.

Thanks for the tips!!!!