AU N EGL

Looking for opinions here guys.

For HPDEs the RECOMMENDED but not often followed is 10-13 cars per mile. I have seen DE run groups with 15 and up to 20 cars per mile.

NASA events and races numbers range dramatically. I have seen 90 car fields on a 3.2 mile track.

SCCA limits fields to 45 cars, IIRC.

The FIA used apprx 15 cars per 2 km or max of 60 cars per race.

Some tracks have specific limits of 30 for DEs and 40 per race groups.

With the popularity of the NASA TTs and the number of Red flags at the NASA-SE Road Atlanta event.

My questions to you guys is:

1-What do you Feel / think is a SAFE car count number for:

HPDE ( teaching - school ):
Open Track time:
Time Trials:
Races:

2-What else should be considered for the car count in a run group / race?

TIA
Tom

sefa01

I think 15 per mile is a reasonable number. I just went to an HPDE at Lime Rock that had more than 40 cars on the 1.5 mile layout. It's like being in weekend beach traffic.

I'd rather pay a higher daily fee if it means fewer cars.

BTW, what are the NCM guidelines? The recent VIR event that I attended never seemed crowded (I was in the Blue group).

AU N EGL

NCM uses 13 cars per mile AT registration time. At the event do to cancellations it comes out to 11 cars per mile. i.e. good OPEN track. That allows us to move students up or down to match there experience and learning curve.

We do move ppl up and down based on in car instructor feed back and recommendations.

BQuicksilver

IMO NASA gets too crowded for sure. I've seem them put 43 cars on track at Putnam (1.8mi). At MO we gridded about 40 in HPDE3, which was also too many. I never passed Thunder Valley on line all weekend due to passing, though I was 2nd fastest of my group of 40...which brings up an important point. If you can get speed differentials minimized you can put a lot more traffic out there. Of course the number of passing zones at the track in question also factors in heavily.

PCA ran about 10-12 cars/session (6-7/mi) at Putnam last fall, and I was looking for a little traffic to cool things down.

IMO 15+ cars/mi is getting crowded, and those looking for times/clean laps will be disappointed. I prefer 10/mi, but if the cars are all fairly equal you can put 11-12/mi out there.

BTW: Most of my comments are based off of time at Putnam, where passing zones are plentiful.

WNDOPDLR

Consideration also needs to be given to the class of run group. NASA allows the DE3 group to pass anywhere on course, including turns, with a point by. IMHO that is fine and opens up the track and decreases the number of trains. DE3 drivers should be experienced enough to drive off line and have control of situation awareness. It was a little crowed this weekend, but it all worked fine. DE1&2 are less experienced by definition and car count on track should be less.
Tom, everything I saw at the NCM event tells me you guys have the right formula and I wouldn't change a thing.

davidfarmer

In my experience, the number of cars is less important than proper grouping. Unfortunately, people seem to get "promoted" through run groups based on speed, NOT on skill, awareness, and manners.

While over-crowding certainly can put a strain on my nerves, as long as folks are giving good passing signals, I'm happy. Even one bad apple in a small run group can ruin a session for everyone.



I don't have a solution, just an opinion.

GAS

NASA Midwest and Ohio/Indiana frown on point-by's in HPDE and TT. They say it is "unsafe" to take your hands off the wheel. I disagree with that philosophy but what do I know? NASA says "You don't get a point by on the highway AND you don't see point-by's in a race do you? I think it is much safer in HPDE knowing the guy I am passing is aware I am going by.

AU N EGL

There are point bys in the races, just from inside the car.

Yes there was some story circulating a while ago about a guy who gave a late point by to an other car that passed too close and his arm was hit by the other car passing.

Now that would be too darn close of a pass to hit the arm or hand out the window.

Yes the issue of taking the hand off the steering wheel to give a point by is also a question. Many times we see ppl take their hand off the steering wheel only to drift into the way of the passing car.

These ppl are in the wrong run group.

Many of have seen ppl with less then great skills and some down right bad skills in the Upper run groups.

As David said, being fast does not equal being good or skilled. Driving schools and HPDEs are different then Open Track days, TTs and racing.

rudyarias

Unlike PCA, BMWCCA and SCCA (which are non-profit driven), NASA unfortunately is a "for profit driven" entity which drastically changes the landscape with each of its "independent" regions. Another factor is that in some of those regions, race groups are the given priority in keeping their allotted sessions. Its HPDE whose sessions are usually cut in the event of an incident with a race group on the track.

In regards to NASA whose event's scheduling includes race groups:

HPDE 1 & 2 should not exceed 10 vehicles per mile.
HPDE 3 should not exceed 15 cars per mile.
HPDE 4 (Instructor group) should not exceed 20 cars per mile.
TT, depending on the track 20 to 30 cars per mile.
Track time should be 30 minutes (25 running, 5 cool down/ending the session).
Races, should be dictated by HPDE's event schedule - 30 - 40 minutes
If there is an incident in a race group, time should be taken from their next session not HPDE's.

I'm a huge proponent for prioritizing HPDE. The reality is that HPDE is growing and the true financial back bone for these events/organizations, not the race groups.

Falcon

One simple thing that will create more track time is having the run groups hustle off track when the checkered flag comes out.

I was watching from the gazebo this weekend at Road Atlanta as the groups received the checkered. Everyone immediately slowed to a leisurely stroll to get off track. That took forever to clear for the next session.

Yea, the checkered is for cooling down, but at 20mph? Speed the parade up and get off track quickly, and more track time is magically created out of thin air for everyone.

Same goes for a yellow flag, it doesn't mean slow to a crawl, it means proceed with caution and no passing.

Should the black flag come out, hustle off track.

It's infuriating to watch the groups let precious track time evaporate right before their eyes.

Rant over!

rudyarias

My understanding is that the Road Atlanta delays were attributed toward disorganization with the track than NASA itself. Five minutes is allocated for cool down laps for each run group/race. The issue was with the race/TT groups having several serious incidents on the track.

trumper Z06

BINGO !!!

StArrow68

Well, most of the posters are from the SE/ME and MW it seems but there
isn't much difference out in Nor. Calif. NASA runs lots more cars on the
track than anyone else. I've counted 68 cars in HPDE 4 at Sears Point,
2.5 mi track. I think they limit entries to around mid 40's but then the
instructors go out and that's a lot of cars added to the mix. I haven't
run with NASA at Laguna Seca but for the the private groups I've run
with they seem to have a track mandated limit of 24 cars per group, 2.2
mi track. BTW, LS is a county park, not a private facility.
The two SCCA tracks, Thunderhill and Buttonwillow, both 3.0 mi's, have
no limits I've seen but most of the good private groups, NCRC, Speed Ventures,
TrackMasters, HOD, Team, GreenFlag/Shelby, & CheckeredFlag
all have entry limits and I've hardly ever seen more than 40 cars on track.
I don't know about NASA events, I usually only run with them at SP since
no one else gets many dates there. BTW, I was at a TrackMasters event
on Friday at TH and we had about 12 cars each in the lower groups.
The upper groups had about 24 cars each.
Randy

Rudy's ideas are interesting but address the economics only a little. The
reason Sears Point / Infineon has bigger run groups in that they charge a
bundle for the facility. Several groups that I ran with there several years
ago don't even bother getting dates any more.

Joy of 6

HPDE 1 & 2 should not exceed 10 vehicles per mile.
HPDE 3 should not exceed 15 cars per mile.
HPDE 4 (Instructor group) should not exceed 20 cars per mile.
TT, depending on the track 20 to 30 cars per mile.
Track time should be 30 minutes (25 running, 5 cool down/ending the session).


I like this set up. I am an instuctor with the BMW, Porsche, Audi and Shelby clubs. (dont ask why no Vette) We typically run about 15 cars per mile in all groups. They usually all fill up except the instructors group which is less. the instructors are more closely matched in lap times due to "talent", so it makes it fun to run there. I have found in the novice group that we have such a wide variety of ability that 10 would be a much safer number. However, those groups ususally fill up first so it is a dilema.

Hope that helps.

Ed

Falcon

Regardless of what caused delays, there's still time to be saved. Imagine speeding up the cool down lap and saving 15 to 30 seconds in each session.

15 to 30 seconds times 4 sessions per group times 5 or 6 groups per day yields from 6 to 12 minutes of track time per day available at 0 cost to anyone. Just hustling off track creates free track time.

These sponsorig bodies might think about send out a "sweeper" at the end of each session to speed the lollygaggers up. Everyone would be required to stay in front of the sweeper.

Sometime when you have a chance, watch what happens to the field after they take the checker.

Another suggestion would be to put out the checkered at another place on track and give everyone a 1/2 lap of cool down like at VIR or CMP. Turn 7 at Road Atlanta would be a good place to do that. Whether they can do that there or not, I don't know.

AU N EGL

Economics are an added factor as track rentals are very very expensive.

Lets stick with run group sizes for now.

rudyarias

NASA National across the board has all regions following their formula for cars and format per event. All of their successful regions' events will be maxed out. Most other "private" organizations are not as profit driven as NASA.

StArrow68

Rudy, thanks for the input, I think NASA is HQ here in Nor. Calif.
If they are limiting entries to your posting then instructor car counts are
driving up the cars per mile way beyond the desired levels. I've been
out in HPDE 3 with over 48 cars at least once at Sears Point.

I did edit the comment about economics, you did point out about HPDE
paying the bills but I think for the NASA race guys, that is what they
want so folks can race. Early on in my Gp 3 days I asked about point
bys and was told that if I couldn't figure out how to pass I needed to
go back a group. To be honest, it did make me learn to set up passes
better.

And to get back to run group size, I find that in open passing I don't mind
a few more cars on track, just more opportunities to set up and get by.
But I still get surprised when some boosted car will pull my stock engine
LS1 on the straights. 15 per mile for experienced drivers shouldn't be an
issue.

rudyarias

Road Atlanta's management is not as co-operative with NASA as it is with the SCCA to put it nicely. Hence the slow response to clean the oil spills and tows. Also its not easy to speed HPDE 1 & 2 cars off the track when they are told to drive at their own pace in the classroom. With HPDE its about safety which is why the sessions are timed with a five minute cool down window.

I never had an appreciation for event organizers until I got involved with NASA MidWest at its beginning. My hat's off to Jim & Julie Pantas for the South East region's growth and organization. Experience has shown me that everyone has a better way until they put on your shoes.

AU N EGL

Correct. Then SCCA does not use the same format.

I know many many corner workers at VIR and they do not like working NASA events as they think they are way too dangerous. Not enough time between run sessions, to go out on to the track and remove any debris or even take a leak.

The Safty crews will take the time they think is appropriate to clean up a track. It may not be they are slow, just doing it properly. I think we all what that old oil or radiator fluid removed before the next session too.

Heaven forbid if anyone takes out some armco. Figure 45 min min to repair the armco that is two run sessions.

Something else is putting the Instructors out in a TT group. Is that a good thing or not? Many instructors want their OWN session, not combined with a TT session.

Rember no instructors and the HPDE groups suffer.