heavychevy

Does any one do this? I a noob to heel toeing in general, only about 4 events since I started doing it on track. So as of now, I'm on blip from current gear to turn gear no matter what gear I started in (I.E. 5th -> one huge blip -> 3rd) I havent yet become comfortable with going all the way down through the gears.

Secondly Is there any significant advantage to going through all gears as opposed to one blip?

Tintin

Not locking the rear wheels and spinning into the wall is one advantage...

You should practice until the downshift is so smooth it feels like an automatic trans to the passenger. That will minimize the stress on your driveline and keep the car very stable

Last C5

"Not locking the rear wheels and spinning into the wall is one advantage..." .

Yea, that would be big on my list too.

Blocktrdr

I go through each gear. The thought behind this is that it is less likely to result in a wrong gear choice.

fmrfast

I do, Just remember Clutch in, neutral, clutch out, blip the throttle to match the next lower gear selected (while maintaining brake pedal pressure) clutch in, select gear & go. It sounds complicated, however it does not take very long & will save the trans synchros. When I started racing,,, the car I used was a non synchro gear box formula ford so double clutch downshifts are 2nd nature for me. Like anything else once you do it a couple of thousand times you will not have to think about it.
There are many discussions about how long this takes. It takes me around 1 second I guess, never timed it. The point I am trying to make is; I am always on the brakes longer then a second or 2 so the time it takes to complete this double clutch downshift is a non issue for me & it saves synchro's.
I go through each gear on the downshift it's a timing thing for me.
Have Fun!

fmrfast

mousecatcher

i always shift into and blip for each gear but only clutch out on the final gear. usu. when you are going down more than 1 gear you are awfully busy in that section and the extra clutch out is just adding extra work (ie, something else to think about), not to mention a potential problem. i do the blips just to keep my rhythm.

that might not be the right technique for you. but i think absolutely you should shift into each gear.

Bill Dearborn

This is more than heel toe down shifting it is adding double clutching to the action. If you can do this it is great but it takes a lot more practice than the normal heel toe most of us do. With good synchros you do not need to throw in the clutch out and blip part then shift into the lower gear you can just blip the throttle while going into the next lower gear and let the clutch out. The synchro's will bring the gears into line.

Bill

heavychevy

I have been told before that double clutching is useless in todays cars, something about the synchros. I'm not really interested in double clutching, but I will try going through the gears though I have no problem with a 5th to 3rd and huge blip. I've never gone 5th to 2nd so I wouldnt know how that felt.

So you are hitting the brake while clutching out? Just seems like it would feel odd. I gotta practice this one.

John Shiels

saving your tranny

AU N EGL

Heel-n-tow_double_clutch_video

Bill Hetzel

Sorry Fmrfast, I have to disagree. I've driven Formula Fords for 7 years and have never done a double clutch. In fact, depending on race conditions, I may not use a clutch at all.
I also rebuild Hewlands including recasing the complete trans, etc.
Double clutching a dogring trans may even do more harm than good ( read Bill Hewland's advice on how to shift his transaxles).
I do use the clutch most of the time on downshifts but, only stab it about halfway during the heel and toe. This way, the clutch acts as a shock absorber on the dog rings.
What I see killing the dogs is driver shifting technique more than anything. Some guys can shift all day, with or without the clutch, and hardly wear the dogs at all. And it that doesn't mean that they're a faster driver than one that beats the snot out of the dogs in one weekend.
On sequencial 5 speeds like the Elite, the driver that stabs the clutch on both up and down shifts wears the dogs at about 1/2 the rate compaired to one who doesn't use the clutch,
The group of FF's that I run with puts about 30 cars on the track eack race and nobody uses double clutching.

Bill Hetzel

The requirement for double clutching went away when they started putting syncros in transmissions, like in the 1930/40's.

If you feel the it's saving your tranny, by all means do it.

Since you're a new driver, trying to double clutch is taking away your concentration on more important things on the track.
Heel & toeing is extremely important. Like the other guys said, it's easier on the trans and can keep you from locking the rears and putting you into the wall.

Skipping a gear can be done but ONLY by an experienced driver. Skipping a gear with an improper heel & toe and mismatched revs can again, put you in the wall. I wouldn't try it until you have a lot of laps under your belt. Some pro drivers like to go down thru all the gears, some will skip a gear all the time. This is a personal preference, after you get the experience.

Work on your heel & toe on the street. Use the 5-4 and 4-3 downshifts until you get the technique down. The work on the 3-2.
I heel & toe all the time on the street without thinking about it.
You'll know that you have the downshifting technique correct when you can't feel the downshift affecting the car.

TRACKMAN2

Work on your heel & toe on the street. Use the 5-4 and 4-3 downshifts until you get the technique down. The work on the 3-2.
I heel & toe all the time on the street without thinking about it.
You'll know that you have the downshifting technique correct when you can't feel the downshift affecting the car.[/QUOTE]

heel toing on the street is a good idea to get the motions and the concept down but remember on the track the timming will be much different.. i have no problem h/t on the track but find it difficult on the street..

mousecatcher

well ... yeah. how are you doing it? if you're not on the brake you are in the turn, you do not want to downshift then.

fmrfast

oh yea

fmrfast

The Formula Fords as they were called I am referring to from my experience in the early 90's came from Skip Barber cars. These cars may differ from what you race. They instructed the drivers to double clutch the downshift, that is what I did & it carried over when I started to take my Corvette to the track. It was the driving style I developed. Driving in this manner has saved me transmission rebuilds & clutches for my Corvette. The cars in that series, I believe they were a Mondial Chassis with a Ford Pinto Power plant. Not sure what trans-axle they used back then it's been a while, I think they use sequential gearbox 's now. I am not sure of the reason Skip Barber instructs this, other then it worked in that car.
Yes you could pull it out of gear without the clutch & get it back into gear without the clutch also, but the throttle blip had to be done clutch out or it sounded like a chainsaw cutting a pipe

Cobra4B

If you can master double clutching you'll save your synchros... over time they wear out esp the 3rd gear ones.

Simply heel-toe downshifting keeps the car from getting upset (stability wise) in a downshift.

blkz

Until you become very proficient at heel and toe it isn't advisable to skip a gear. Double clutching is old school and never force into gear if it doesn't want to go.

Cobra4B

Double clutching may be "old school" but after running HPDEs for 5 years and going through a few sets of 3rd gear synchros you might consider learning.

The C5s rear mounted trans is great for weight distribution, but it's hell on the synchros when downshifting at higher RPMs. The synchros have to account for the weight of the entire driveshaft etc. too.

As for skipping gears... nothing wrong w/ that. At VIR I get into 5th in the two straights, but need to be in 3rd for the turns at the end. No need to make the 4th gear shift.... just stay in the brakes until you've slowed enough to make the downshift into 3rd.

I do agree about never forcing it... downshifts should be smooth and let the trans pull the shifter into gear.