RUN4CVR

For those who have done it, I have a street car that I like to take to HPDE's maybe 1/2 dozen times a year. When I get to the track I feel like I am one of the minority who uses stock seats and seatbelts. I get a little nervous because I like to be safety conscious.

How hard is it to put in racing seats and a harness bar? Can they easily be taken out and returned to normal "street" look of the car? What is the best harness, 4pt, 5pt???

For 2 seats, harnesses and the bar, what should i expect to be paying?

And lastly, or maybe first, without a real rollcage are racing seats and harnesses safe? I've heard that without a rollcage there is a chance of really doing more damage to yourself in a rollover situation than without.

Thoughts and experience please? Thanks in advance.

TRACKMAN2

harness bar and harness are a must!! some seats dont work that well with harnesses but there still better than nothing.. i imagine a mild sport seat would be ok you definately wouldnt want to use a seat like i use in my c4. all metal ultra sheild roadrace pro.
and as far as safety goes ive only heard of rumors that they arnt safe in verts ,,,, but i think id rather have my harness any way..

in the z i have both i tuck the harness behind the seat and use the stock belts.. when driving on the streets.....and just leave the bar in. bu the way 5 point minimum 6 are better

JDIllon

Caravaggio seats $2600.00 and Sharkbar $350.00 and g-Force 6 point harness $300.00 plus $300.00 for lower Hardbar belt brackets. And yes they can be changed back to stock very easy. And with the Caravaggio seats all of the eletronics work fine. JD

chpmnsws6

Just having better control of the vehicle is enough reason to put a seat and harness in. It honestly made my car feel slower, but I could take a corner at 45-50mph that I used to think was hard at 40mph because I'm not being thrown around in the vehicle.

Last C5

"And lastly, or maybe first, without a real rollcage are racing seats and harnesses safe? I've heard that without a rollcage there is a chance of really doing more damage to yourself in a rollover situation than without.
"

Theoretically in a hard roll over that flattens the roof entirely it could be worse to use a six point harness without a roll bar. The thinking being that your stock belt will let you lean over toward the tunnel and get out of the roof's way.

I use a six point, race seats, and harness bar with no roll cage as do many other HPDErs. You'll be amazed at the improvement in control that you have.

AU N EGL

I would recommend staying away from leather seats. They get very hot and sticky, not to mention too expensive.

Sparko EVO and EVO II are popular plus the Suzki Cobra. On Hard Bar Mouting rails. Or many of use use alumium seats, Kirkey or Ulta-shield

Hard Bar or BK harness bars

Good seats take a bit to get mounted and positioned properly. But once you have them set properly then it is a 30 min job to swap seats

VetteDrmr

That's the primary reason I run with harnesses, just to keep from expending so much energy just trying to stay in position. I primarily autocross with the occasional DE, using C5 sport seats, which let me run the shoulder straps through the halo slots.

HTH, and have a good one,
Mike

c4cruiser

Check out the Corbeau Forza or Forza II seats for decent entry-level seats. Figure around $250 per seat and $70 or so for mountaing rails.
Corbeau has custom rails/brackes for specific car models.

I recall reading an earlier thread in this section where some HPDE host clubs won't allow "race-style" seats without belt holes specifically for lap belts (may have been a Porche event). You might want to check with the track day organizers about what they require when using lap belts. Some organizers may also require that a passenger seat be set up for harnesses if you take a rider.

There are lots of aftermarket "race" seats that have shoulder belt holes, but nothing else. These seats typically have ratcheting seat back adjusting and are probably more for street use than racing/HPDE

Same goes for harnesses. Harness belts are typically dated and once they go past that date, they either have to be re-inspected or you have to get new sets. Some events may only check for wear of the material but there are some that do check date stamps. Ask up front so you don't fail a tech inspection on the morning of an event.

In any event, try to sit in different seats before you buy. Some seat brands have different widths available (for those of us who really like food ) and some seats may not fit in a C4 without removal of the parking brake assembly.

Bill Dearborn

From what I have been told most Porsche and BMW club events do not permit racing harnesses that go around the seat back. This is due to the high probability they could come loose during an impact which is what happened a couple of years ago at a PCA event at Watkins Glen. The driver died and it may have been due to the shoulder harnesses coming off his shoulders. The other thing they check for on seats that have the belts pass through the back is to make sure the seat doesn't prevent the belt from traveling in a straight line from the shoulder to the mounting point on the bar. If the seat pushes the belt up or down that adds slack that would show up under the high G situation of a crash.

You need to make sure the seat has proper provisions for mounting a submarine belt whether it be 5 or 6 point. A sub belt going over the front of the seat bottom doesn't cut it.

If you can find FIA belts they are a little more expensive but are rated for 5 years Vs the usual 2.

Expect to spend between $1200 to $1400 for two seats (including mounts) plus the cost of harnesses.

Bill

AU N EGL

Bill you are correct. I just received some updated PCA HPDE harness guild lines from PCA National Tech Committee

In short:

"No Porsche OEM seats will work with aftermarket harness systems. Any aftermarket harness that is installed must be used with a seat designed to accept that harness, including a slot for the sub-belt. This new interpretation permits some 4 pt systems (non-Porsche) if they are DOT approved to function with the OEM seats....primarily a BMW/ Mini Cooper issue."

And
"New Harness Standard FAQs

1. Does the standard require identical system for both the driver and passenger?
No..The system must be similar. For example, the drivers seat manufacturer could be Recaro and the passenger seat an Sparco model.

2. If my seat has no routing holes for the shoulder and/or anti-submarine belts, mat I cut holes myself?

No…The holes must be installed by the manufacturer.

3. Does the Standard require routing holes for the lap belts?

No…Although routing holes are preferred, hinged seats are acceptable. Since most harness systems are not DOT approved. The OEM belts must be worn on the street, except for New Hampshire which has no seat belt law. Lap belt routing holes can raise the seat bolster so that the three point OEM belt may not function properly.

4. What is an acceptable way to attach the harness in my Porsche?

The preferred method is to use a roll cage, roll hoop or a triangulated truss system that uses the “B” pillars; such as, the Brey-Krause harness truss.

5. When does the standard go into effect?

The Standard goes into effect January 1, 2008.

6. Can I use the three point OEM belt over or under my harness system with a seat without routing holes?

It is the opinion of experts in the field that the two systems are not compatible and should not be worn together.

7. Are there standards for the type of seat and/or belt system required in the Standard?

Yes…The seat and belt system must be either FIA or SFI approved and have a date tag depicting the date of manufacture."




The official text will be published on Rennlist very shortly.

Does this mean you can take a C5Z06 or C6Z06 with stock seats and put a harness system in?
NO. Those OEM seats were not designed for harness and will not be allowed.

Does this mean my OEM seats can be modified ( Hole put in) for the harness belts?
NO. The seat must be designed by the OEM manufacture to accept Harnesses.

In short Starting Jan 2008 a majority of car clubs will no longer allow wrap around harness nor modified stock seats to be fitted with harness.

Only proper after market seats ( race seats) and properly installed harnesses ( Manufactures recommendations installation procedures ) will be allowed

American Power

Does this mean only the Caravggio GT seats will be allowed. The race version that's 1200.00 doesn't have lap belt slots, like the GT's??

I'm looking into seats right now, as I prep the car for the 08 season.

kentz06

IMHO:

Race seat with lap belt slots.
FIA approved 6 pt HANS harness.
HANS device.

Follow the HANS/harness installation instructions closely!

The results will be improved safety and car control.




The OEM buckle socket now runs through the seat lap slot and not around the outside as shown in the photo.

Dean

c4cruiser

What did moving the stock seat belt buckle to inside the seat do to comfort? Would there be rubbing aginst the harness lap belt that could cause excessive fraying?

elh0102

Well, I guess I'll again be the contrarian here. I had a race seat, harness bar, harnesses and HANS in a C5 ZO6. Obviously, it helps a lot in supporting you on track. I had a Porsche 997S that I used on track totally stock, and I recently bought a C6 ZO6 that I plan to keep stock also. The Porsche seat is a much better seat for track use than the Corvette, but I think I can manage with it. Doing only 5 or 6 DE events each year, and remaining on street tires and a totally stock car, I just don't feel it's worth the trouble. During the last year, I have seen two car crashes, one on track and one on the street, in which the driver would have been in serious trouble had he been harnessed in a fixed-back racing seat without rollover protection. In both cases the driver avoided serious injury due to the design of the reclining seat. I agree, its very unlikely that a harness bar/race seat setup will cause you injury. But, I figure I do this for fun, so why worry about it. If I get tired of driving early from seat fatigue, I'll just come in and relax. Obviously, all this stuff depends on your goals and risk tolerance (and the rules, as they evolve). Just my opinion, but I will personally keep it stock, or invest in fully prepped track car.

kentz06

It significantly improved the angle from the waist to the mounting point. With it going around the outside of the seat the angle is sideways instead of down and back.

When not at the track I pull the harness out of the holes and they lay on the floor out of the way. No fraying problems on stock belts or harness.

It did make it a little harder to get in, but comfort isn't a problem once in the seat.

Dean

928nomore

how much did the seats set you bacK? do you have model ?s they look great. i use my 08 c6 r compound tires grtting near the limit, concernrd about saftey looking to add 6 pt belts and hans device. (but i hate to loose the side airbags as i usee the car daily

0RAAMaudio

As mentioned on here having a "harness bar" and race harnesses may be putting you are great risk of serious injury if you flatten your roof, just not a risk I would ever take.

A well made and properly installed roll bar is the only way I ever use a harness in a car, anywhere.

The only exception is with some of the Schroth 3 (not sure of the 4) point belts that will let you slip down in the seat(no crotch strap(s) and is designed to let you rotate at the shoulder just a bit in a frontal hit which helps prevent submarining in that sort of impact.

I have seen cars turned away at events when they showed up with a harness bar and harnesses, I guess many places do not do have such rules but it is still in your best interest to really look into this and do what is safe not nessesarily easier to live with in your street/track cars.

(I have three cars here with cages and the car I tracked this year had no cage, roll bar or harnesses but I did run with the Schroth 3 point belts and was comfortable in my choice, until I started getting a bit to fast, parted out and sold that car)

Rick

varkwso

I have run the stock seats and belts in my 02 ZO6 since 2001 (and it is unlikely I will change) and have run a Corbeau seat and stock belts in the 99 FRC since we bought it two years ago.

The Corbeau is a great advantage for being able to stay behind the wheel - when I decide what I am going to do as far as a cage or not I may add a harness bar.

You do not "need" a better seat or harness - but one may make you feel better (and a seat definitely keeps you behind the wheel better!) - and definitely looks cool at the Sonic....

AU N EGL

No you can use Sparko seats, and real racing seat. Cobra, Sparko, Kirkey, Ultra-shield, Racco. etc.

The seats should be fixed, not folding, be on a fixed mounting rails, not sliding rails, and Ideally a back brace, to the harness or roll bar.
Read the manufactures mounting instructions.

Belts: should harness should be mounted +/- 5* of the shoulder level.

The SCCA Tech rules are the best I have seen for mounting of seats and harness belts. Better then the FIA tech rules.

The only OEM corvette seats that could be modified for shoulder harness are the C5 seats. Not the C3, C4 or C6 seats.

Safety should not be taken lightly.

varkwso

The fixed rails makes it tough on two driver cars with significant height difference. I really would like a reasonable solution to that problem! I know it is an issue in enduro racing..

Like gun safety - the best car safety lies in the bioprocessing unit...but decent equipment/training really helps.