Cheaparral 2J2 stopping by
10-24-2008, 10:33 AM
#1
Melting Slicks
Thread Starter
Cheaparral 2J2 stopping by
The Cheaparral 2J2 is supposed to stop by the museum tomorrow to visit its namesake. Rumor has it that Jim Hall will be on hand. 
I'll see if I can get some video and pics to share.
I'll see if I can get some video and pics to share.
10-24-2008, 08:35 PM
#2
Le Mans Master
Originally Posted by SS Racing
The Cheaparral 2J2 is supposed to stop by the museum tomorrow
to visit its namesake.
to visit its namesake.
tank engine ventilation fan providing downforce. It competed in
the Grassroots Motorsports $2007 Challenge. Driven in the event by
a CF member.
.
10-24-2008, 10:31 PM
#4
Melting Slicks
The Cheaparral team was invited to show Jay Leno the car yesterday ( Thursday ) and on the way home they are elated to stop by and visit the museum with the 2J2 and see their inspiration in person and hopefully meet Jim Hall . This is almost the end of the road for the Cheaparral team , the project is complete , they have used the car for what it was intended ,the $2007 challenge, a marketing tool for recruitment of young engineers to Proctor and Gamble and a great team building excercise within the company.
The car will be auctioned off very soon on E-Bay for their charity the United Way of Cincinnati.
The car will be auctioned off very soon on E-Bay for their charity the United Way of Cincinnati.
10-25-2008, 10:34 PM
#5
Melting Slicks
Thread Starter
Jim Hall drove the Cheaparral around the parking lot.
He first drove it without the fan to get a baseline. He mostly did a big circle like a skid pad. He did get the backend loose a little.
Then he ran it with the fan. He said it made a big difference.
I'll post up some video and pics in a few days.
He really enjoyed seeing how his ideas are still being used today.
It was a blast to hear Mr. Hall talk about racing back in the good ol' days. He said the fans on the 2J would push the car about 30mph without the main engine. He said they had proposed to GE (I think that is who he said) to drive the 2J upside down and show the downforce it made. They were going to build a road that spiraled so the car would end up upside down.
He first drove it without the fan to get a baseline. He mostly did a big circle like a skid pad. He did get the backend loose a little.
Then he ran it with the fan. He said it made a big difference.
I'll post up some video and pics in a few days.
He really enjoyed seeing how his ideas are still being used today.
It was a blast to hear Mr. Hall talk about racing back in the good ol' days. He said the fans on the 2J would push the car about 30mph without the main engine. He said they had proposed to GE (I think that is who he said) to drive the 2J upside down and show the downforce it made. They were going to build a road that spiraled so the car would end up upside down.
10-26-2008, 11:41 PM
#6
Le Mans Master
My vote is that you heard correctly.
In his book "Chevrolet-racing?", Paul Van Valkenburgh writes that
following the inaugural race at Watkins Glen (1970.07.12), at a very
dark time for the 2J, GE stepped forward and revitalized the project
with sponsorship. The grounds for their involvement were that Lexan
and Silicon, both GE developments, were used prominently in the 2J.
PVV goes on to write that, whatever the 2J's merits or demerits as a
competition vehicle, as an advertising investment, it was one of the
biggest promotional successes GE ever enjoyed.
any images you might be able to host.
.
In his book "Chevrolet-racing?", Paul Van Valkenburgh writes that
following the inaugural race at Watkins Glen (1970.07.12), at a very
dark time for the 2J, GE stepped forward and revitalized the project
with sponsorship. The grounds for their involvement were that Lexan
and Silicon, both GE developments, were used prominently in the 2J.
PVV goes on to write that, whatever the 2J's merits or demerits as a
competition vehicle, as an advertising investment, it was one of the
biggest promotional successes GE ever enjoyed.
Chevrolet Racing: 14 Years of Raucous Silence! 1957-1970
by Paul Van Valkenburgh
SAE International; Revised edition (February 2000)
ISBN-10: 0768005299
Thank you for the news about the occasion. Looking forward toby Paul Van Valkenburgh
SAE International; Revised edition (February 2000)
ISBN-10: 0768005299
any images you might be able to host.
.
10-27-2008, 10:19 PM
#9
Melting Slicks
Thread Starter
10-27-2008, 11:08 PM
#11
Le Mans Master
10-28-2008, 12:02 AM
#12
Melting Slicks
I would say that no one there was more extatic than Cliff , the chief engineer on the Cheaparral.. It has been a life long dream for Cliff to meet Jim Hall. The fact that the Cheaparral seemed to meet Jims approval probably made it all that much better for Cliff , the rest of the team that were present , and those on the team who were not. There were alot of people that worked really hard on that project and they all deserve a pat on the back. Those that were present in the picture were (l-r; Cliff , JH, Wayne,Dan,Kerry and Stoyan ).
I must say when they inducted me into their team , and was told about the "sucker-car" plan , I must say I was skeptical. Seemed pretty loony to me, but in the next few months things were taking shape and many people played their part in the project. When it came test time for the car with the fan , I was apprehensive to say the least. We set up a approximately 250 ft skid pad. I ran the car, like Jim, without the fan functional and the tray raised. The car had good grip on a well used set of x-autocross tires that I had donated, but that was to be expected ...it is a Corvette. We were lapping the skid pad in approx. 11.3 seconds. What happened next floored me. We lowered the tray , started the snowmobile engine and raised the engine speed. I was in sensory shock, it was very loud. I ran around the skid pad and the car seemed as if it had endless grip ...so much of it in fact that in order to break the car loose you would have to go WOT, and even then it would take a bit for the car to loose the pavement. It was incredible and the car lost 1.3 seconds or so around the circle . A 1.3 second loss in a skid pad is huge my friend.....I am not sure what that equates to in lateral g improvement, but I am sure there are some math-junkies on this thread that will crunch the numbers. Long story short , I was no longer skeptical of the "sucker-vette".
Two or 3 days later we set up an autocross in the parking lot of P&G. Again we ran the car through the course many times without the downforce enhancer. The car was well balanced and was base lined against a good SCCA B/SP C4 with an LT4 and 315/335 combo. The car without the sucker was slower than the B/SP car by about 1.5 seconds on a 37-38 sec. course. We fired up the fan and made another handful of runs the car improved near 3 seconds with the fan and obviously was now beating the BSP car 1.5 sec. . Three seconds in an autocross of that length would be like comparing nationally competitive SS cars vs. HS cars. Astonishing results ......
I was very happy to be involved with these guys , these guys worked as hard or harder on this project than professional race teams do on their projects. Alot of work took place in a very short time I think the project started around April of '07 and the $2007 challenge was like the first week in October. 6 months from delapidated ,wrecked Corvette placarded with "BIO-HAZZARD" to winning the $2007 challenge, including repairing the wreck first and then engineering,prototyping and building the car.
Here is another link for the Cheaparral that I haven't seen anyone stumble across yet.
http://www.cheaparral.com/
As I said previously , the end of the road is approaching for the Cheaparral and it will be auctioned of on E-bay for charity ( the United Way of Cincinnati ) very soon. It was supposed to be listed 2 weeks ago, but the latest invite for Jay Leno to see the car and taking it to Jim Hall's museum for his blessing , has delayed the auction. It will be interesting to see what the car goes for . If it is $2009 or less, I am buying it and taking it to the next Grassroots challenge
I am sure that Jim's signature and approval will help it bring more money..........It does have a RAFT decal too..
I talked with Cliff this morning and told him of this thread so maybe he will join the forum and say a few words himself.
Really good to see Jim smiling and enjoying the Sucker-Vette...somehow now seems all that much more worth it
I must say when they inducted me into their team , and was told about the "sucker-car" plan , I must say I was skeptical. Seemed pretty loony to me, but in the next few months things were taking shape and many people played their part in the project. When it came test time for the car with the fan , I was apprehensive to say the least. We set up a approximately 250 ft skid pad. I ran the car, like Jim, without the fan functional and the tray raised. The car had good grip on a well used set of x-autocross tires that I had donated, but that was to be expected ...it is a Corvette. We were lapping the skid pad in approx. 11.3 seconds. What happened next floored me. We lowered the tray , started the snowmobile engine and raised the engine speed. I was in sensory shock, it was very loud. I ran around the skid pad and the car seemed as if it had endless grip ...so much of it in fact that in order to break the car loose you would have to go WOT, and even then it would take a bit for the car to loose the pavement. It was incredible and the car lost 1.3 seconds or so around the circle . A 1.3 second loss in a skid pad is huge my friend.....I am not sure what that equates to in lateral g improvement, but I am sure there are some math-junkies on this thread that will crunch the numbers. Long story short , I was no longer skeptical of the "sucker-vette".
Two or 3 days later we set up an autocross in the parking lot of P&G. Again we ran the car through the course many times without the downforce enhancer. The car was well balanced and was base lined against a good SCCA B/SP C4 with an LT4 and 315/335 combo. The car without the sucker was slower than the B/SP car by about 1.5 seconds on a 37-38 sec. course. We fired up the fan and made another handful of runs the car improved near 3 seconds with the fan and obviously was now beating the BSP car 1.5 sec. . Three seconds in an autocross of that length would be like comparing nationally competitive SS cars vs. HS cars. Astonishing results ......
I was very happy to be involved with these guys , these guys worked as hard or harder on this project than professional race teams do on their projects. Alot of work took place in a very short time I think the project started around April of '07 and the $2007 challenge was like the first week in October. 6 months from delapidated ,wrecked Corvette placarded with "BIO-HAZZARD" to winning the $2007 challenge, including repairing the wreck first and then engineering,prototyping and building the car.
Here is another link for the Cheaparral that I haven't seen anyone stumble across yet.
http://www.cheaparral.com/
As I said previously , the end of the road is approaching for the Cheaparral and it will be auctioned of on E-bay for charity ( the United Way of Cincinnati ) very soon. It was supposed to be listed 2 weeks ago, but the latest invite for Jay Leno to see the car and taking it to Jim Hall's museum for his blessing , has delayed the auction. It will be interesting to see what the car goes for . If it is $2009 or less, I am buying it and taking it to the next Grassroots challenge
I am sure that Jim's signature and approval will help it bring more money..........It does have a RAFT decal too..
I talked with Cliff this morning and told him of this thread so maybe he will join the forum and say a few words himself.
Really good to see Jim smiling and enjoying the Sucker-Vette...somehow now seems all that much more worth it
Last edited by RAFTRACER; 11-17-2008 at 06:33 PM.
10-28-2008, 11:41 AM
#13
Melting Slicks
Thread Starter
I was really surprised how much suction the fan made. It didn't come out on video but when they revved up the fan while the car was sitting still you could see the body go down about an inch or so. That is some force to compress the Corvette's suspension that much. That was
The 2J did the same thing. When they started the fans the body would suck down to the ground. The fans in the back had 2 advantages over the 2J2 however - 1) it added some forward push and 2) it blasted any cars behind it so they didn't want to stay too close for long.
Jim said he didn't drive the 2J much. When he did, he found that he was braking way too early because the car had so much downforce. The car had so much grip they could go in deep and then get on it where other cars couldn't. He had a hard time getting used to that.
I think the 2J2 is a winner and I hope it sells for a bunch of $. Really nice of the team to donate proceeds to charity.
The 2J did the same thing. When they started the fans the body would suck down to the ground. The fans in the back had 2 advantages over the 2J2 however - 1) it added some forward push and 2) it blasted any cars behind it so they didn't want to stay too close for long.
Jim said he didn't drive the 2J much. When he did, he found that he was braking way too early because the car had so much downforce. The car had so much grip they could go in deep and then get on it where other cars couldn't. He had a hard time getting used to that.
I think the 2J2 is a winner and I hope it sells for a bunch of $. Really nice of the team to donate proceeds to charity.
10-28-2008, 03:29 PM
#15
Melting Slicks
Thread Starter
I feel very fortunate to be able to rub elbows with a racing legend like Jim Hall and to see the Chaparral cars actually running.
At the Chaparral Gallery grand opening Mr. Hall was surprised to know there was anything on the internet about him. I told him he had a pretty big following around the world. I'm glad to be able to share a little bit of racing history with his fans.
They'll keep running the cars and I'll keep posting videos, pics and stories.
10-28-2008, 06:15 PM
#16
Le Mans Master
That is really cool stuff! I would love to build a sucker car and have been mentally toying with ideas for some time. Their approach is very innovative (and crude). It sure looks like it gets the job done. It's also cool to see Jim Hall driving it. Groovy!
10-29-2008, 12:03 AM
#17
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Member Since: Mar 2007
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SS, Thanks for sharing your pictures and videos! We really enjoyed our visit to Midland. This was truly a dream come true! We really appreciate the outstanding hospitality from the nice folks from The Petroleum Museum and of course Jim Hall himself!
Here are some details from our unbelievable visit. We received a personal behind the scenes tour of the Chaparral gallery and were able to get a close look at the amazing Chaparral cars and the great exhibits. Next we toured the hallowed grounds of Chaparral Cars and drove around the Rattlesnake Raceway. If you close your eyes you can imagine cars like the 2J or 2E roaring down the narrow track. A big thanks to Ron Low!
Next we were invited to park our car next to the 2J (our inspiration) and the other cars in the museum for some cool photo ops – WOW! Having our “junk yard” creation next to this legendary machinery was an incredible honor. I had many technical questions about how the skirt was actuated on the original car. We actually were allowed to help disassemble to body work on the 2J to reveal some really ingenious cables tied to the a-arms that maintained skirt clearance. It’s not everyday that you have an opportunity to wrench on a $10,000,000 car! Needless to say we were REALLY careful. We also learned that the fans on the original car were in fact military surplus similar to ours – thanks Uncle Sam!
As we were wiping our fingerprints (and drool) from the 2J, in walks one of the greatest automotive innovators of our time, Jim Hall. Jim is one of the nicest and sharpest guys I have ever had the pleasure to meet. We walked out to our car (again our car cost only $1920.70 to create…) and had an amazing technical discussion comparing the engineering details between the 2 active down force generation systems and he answered questions about the glory days of Chaparral. Jim has an amazingly keen intellect and a great mechanical insight. Talking with him was an unforgettable honor.
Next we gave a quick presentation about the car to the visitors who came to check out our creation. I gave a short 5/10 demonstration of driving the car with the sucker system. This parking lot was very sandy and I was pelted by lots of grit. As I was pulling over I noticed Jim coming over with a determined look on his face to test drive our car. I warned him that it was really sandy and he was going to get sandblasted. He said “I don’t give a damn, I want to drive that thing.” Jim gave a great demo of the car without and with the fan (as seen on the videos). After he was done he had the biggest smile of satisfaction I have ever seen. He told us he was impressed with how well balanced the car is and that we had done a great job. He also said that he was proud of our effort. I can’t think of a better compliment for our work.
Most of us are lucky to someday shake hands with our hero and maybe ask for an autograph. To spend some time connecting with and having an opportunity to make your hero proud is hard to describe in words.
For Forum Members who are not familiar with The Petroleum Museum in Midland, TX; in addition to a lot of cool oil pumps, drilling, etc. equipment on display, they have a wing dedicated to Jim Hall's legendary Chaparrals. This includes all 6 of the remaining Chaparral cars and the 1980 Indy 500 Champion Car. Also included are some great hands on displays to explain the physics behind Jim's aerodynamic innovations. This is a destination that every enthusiast should see some day. The museum offers something for kids of all ages. With some planning you might even see an original Chaparral driving in the parking lot! http://www.petroleummuseum.org/
Cliff Papsdorf
Team ChEaparral Racing
Here are some details from our unbelievable visit. We received a personal behind the scenes tour of the Chaparral gallery and were able to get a close look at the amazing Chaparral cars and the great exhibits. Next we toured the hallowed grounds of Chaparral Cars and drove around the Rattlesnake Raceway. If you close your eyes you can imagine cars like the 2J or 2E roaring down the narrow track. A big thanks to Ron Low!
Next we were invited to park our car next to the 2J (our inspiration) and the other cars in the museum for some cool photo ops – WOW! Having our “junk yard” creation next to this legendary machinery was an incredible honor. I had many technical questions about how the skirt was actuated on the original car. We actually were allowed to help disassemble to body work on the 2J to reveal some really ingenious cables tied to the a-arms that maintained skirt clearance. It’s not everyday that you have an opportunity to wrench on a $10,000,000 car! Needless to say we were REALLY careful. We also learned that the fans on the original car were in fact military surplus similar to ours – thanks Uncle Sam!
As we were wiping our fingerprints (and drool) from the 2J, in walks one of the greatest automotive innovators of our time, Jim Hall. Jim is one of the nicest and sharpest guys I have ever had the pleasure to meet. We walked out to our car (again our car cost only $1920.70 to create…) and had an amazing technical discussion comparing the engineering details between the 2 active down force generation systems and he answered questions about the glory days of Chaparral. Jim has an amazingly keen intellect and a great mechanical insight. Talking with him was an unforgettable honor.
Next we gave a quick presentation about the car to the visitors who came to check out our creation. I gave a short 5/10 demonstration of driving the car with the sucker system. This parking lot was very sandy and I was pelted by lots of grit. As I was pulling over I noticed Jim coming over with a determined look on his face to test drive our car. I warned him that it was really sandy and he was going to get sandblasted. He said “I don’t give a damn, I want to drive that thing.” Jim gave a great demo of the car without and with the fan (as seen on the videos). After he was done he had the biggest smile of satisfaction I have ever seen. He told us he was impressed with how well balanced the car is and that we had done a great job. He also said that he was proud of our effort. I can’t think of a better compliment for our work.
Most of us are lucky to someday shake hands with our hero and maybe ask for an autograph. To spend some time connecting with and having an opportunity to make your hero proud is hard to describe in words.
For Forum Members who are not familiar with The Petroleum Museum in Midland, TX; in addition to a lot of cool oil pumps, drilling, etc. equipment on display, they have a wing dedicated to Jim Hall's legendary Chaparrals. This includes all 6 of the remaining Chaparral cars and the 1980 Indy 500 Champion Car. Also included are some great hands on displays to explain the physics behind Jim's aerodynamic innovations. This is a destination that every enthusiast should see some day. The museum offers something for kids of all ages. With some planning you might even see an original Chaparral driving in the parking lot! http://www.petroleummuseum.org/
Cliff Papsdorf
Team ChEaparral Racing
10-29-2008, 12:37 AM
#18
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The rumors are true. Our car will be featured in an upcoming video on Jay Leno's terrific website: http://www.jaylenosgarage.com/ This is a great website for someone like me who has bigger dreams than wallet and give you an opportunity to learn what a McLaren F1 is like without actually owning one. Jay is a great host and even allowed us to tour his immense collection of bikes & cars. Jay seems to have a fondness for C5 & C6’s I believe I saw 5. A big thanks to Tim Suddard at Grassroots Motorsports Magazine for setting this up! By the way GRM has a story about us on the website right now http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/articles/plan-attack/
Danny thanks for all of your help and involvement in our project. It has been a pleasure to work with a driver and Corvette expert of your caliber. Seeing you transform into a believer of the technology was one of the great moments of the project for me.
Burners – I would encourage you and anyone else thinking it would be cool to build a sucker car to do it. The technology really works and the down force independent of ground speed radically improves all aspects of vehicle performance. Thanks to race sanctioning bodies, this is one of the least developed technologies and is prime for improvements. In fact I am aware of only 5 sucker cars that have ever been built.
1970 Jim Hall’s Original Chaparral 2J
1978 Gordon Murray’s Brabham BT46B F1 Car (Later he would design the McLaren F1 road car)
1990 Cornell University Formula SAE Car
1996 Go Kart with Weed Eater powered fan for Road & Track Skid Pad Challenge – I believe this was constructed by Jim Hall Jr. (Son of Jim Hall and Go Kart School Owner.)
2007 ChEaparral 2J2 (Only street legal road car with sucker system. Total cost of sucker system was $309.88)
Look me up if you want to "Nerd Out" about sucker system improvements sometime.
Cliff
Danny thanks for all of your help and involvement in our project. It has been a pleasure to work with a driver and Corvette expert of your caliber. Seeing you transform into a believer of the technology was one of the great moments of the project for me.
Burners – I would encourage you and anyone else thinking it would be cool to build a sucker car to do it. The technology really works and the down force independent of ground speed radically improves all aspects of vehicle performance. Thanks to race sanctioning bodies, this is one of the least developed technologies and is prime for improvements. In fact I am aware of only 5 sucker cars that have ever been built.
1970 Jim Hall’s Original Chaparral 2J
1978 Gordon Murray’s Brabham BT46B F1 Car (Later he would design the McLaren F1 road car)
1990 Cornell University Formula SAE Car
1996 Go Kart with Weed Eater powered fan for Road & Track Skid Pad Challenge – I believe this was constructed by Jim Hall Jr. (Son of Jim Hall and Go Kart School Owner.)
2007 ChEaparral 2J2 (Only street legal road car with sucker system. Total cost of sucker system was $309.88)
Look me up if you want to "Nerd Out" about sucker system improvements sometime.
Cliff
10-29-2008, 12:54 AM
#19
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Oh yeah I almost forgot, we are holding off on the E-Bay Charity auction of our car until our video airs on jaylenosgrage.com. The car now has been signed by both Jay Leno and Jim Hall. If you are interested in buying it please contact my e-mail or contact us through the www.cheaparral.com website.
On a technical note, after extensive CFD and windtunnel testing I can conclusively say that a RAFT sticker on the back of a Vette creates a negative pressure zone under the rear bumper due to flow separation that results in some serious down force. I guess that is why cars with RAFT stickers are so fast!
On a technical note, after extensive CFD and windtunnel testing I can conclusively say that a RAFT sticker on the back of a Vette creates a negative pressure zone under the rear bumper due to flow separation that results in some serious down force. I guess that is why cars with RAFT stickers are so fast!
10-29-2008, 11:26 AM
#20
Le Mans Master
Hey Cliff, welcome to the forum. Thanks for giving a rundown on your visit. You have done many racers, geek engineers and tinkerers a favor with your accomplishments. I am inspired and impressed. I'm certainly of the mindset that if it just needs to work then you don't worry a lot about other aspects until goal #1 is accomplished.
Did you guys look into or compare the efficiency of other types of fans? Is a squirrel cage centrifugal fan any better? I'm thinking they could be. I must say that I'm very impressed with pulling 12" Hg with the fan you used.
Did you guys look into or compare the efficiency of other types of fans? Is a squirrel cage centrifugal fan any better? I'm thinking they could be. I must say that I'm very impressed with pulling 12" Hg with the fan you used.