Sidney004

Type and viscosity? Curious if this occurred with the low ZDDP versions.

waddisme

M1 5-30 when it blew. It was also sc'd with 552 rwhp on stock bottom end. Issue was probably pre iginition related. New motor is still on VR-1 plus bottle of STP additive. That should be enough ZDDP. Don't know what to do about oil after 5k miles is up.

VetteDrmr

Why would roller-bearing cam engines need more ZDDP? I thought that was primarily a flat-tappet engine issue?

Have a good one,
Mike

Slalom4me

Ditto.

Still interested in the feedback.

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TDBurke

I've been looking into this as well. A friend does an oil analysis after every event. Note, not an oil change but sample sent for analysis. Over the past two years he has tried every "over the counter" synthetic except for Pennzoil Platinum. M1 tested worst of all the brands of oils he tried. Castrol Syntec best for the find it at WalMart brands of oil. If you can get Amsoil that tested better than the Castrol. He runs Motul 300V now and changes when Blackstone tells him to.

All tested in 10/40 weight.

AU N EGL

Not sure what oil, but IIRC it as the #7 failure in most do to oiling or lack of oiling.

0Randy@DRM

Interesting. There is a few other like me that have became anti Mobil-one. Funny thing is Mobil has great fuel here and Mobile is my only credit card. I would be interested to see the test results, but I understand if he will not share them. Hell he has spent good money on the test, it's his info.

Has he tried Red Line oils yet???
Randy

0Randy@DRM

Really??? I haven't seen too many rods hanging out by #7. Most of the time lack of oil in the middle of the block somewhere #4-#6.

Randy

varkwso

Mobil 1 15-50...~8 fresh qts into the pea gravel at VIR...

TDBurke

The Motul has tested really well for him and the cost is pretty much the same as Redline so he's happy sticking with that. At the Redline/Motul level its simply splitting hairs. With the oil analysis he's going nearly a season before changing the oil. This is a New England season so we're parked Nov. 1 until April.

My father and I both run Redline. In my Dad's 03 C5Z, which he bought new, he's been using 10/40 RL since the first oil change. It doesn't burn oil and he doesn't get the soot/blow-by on the rear bumper that is seen on many others. This is a car that sees mostly all track use it was on track with just over 500 miles on it.

I run Redline 15/50 in my racecar and I went over 1000 on-track miles prior to oil change. I would have analysis but I didn't have anything to collect a sample.

VetteDrmr

Randy (or anyone else),

Care to give an opinion on my question about the need for ZDDP in roller cam engines?

TIA, and have a good one,
Mike

Sidney004

Of course, I don't know, I am not a chemical engineer nor have I ever seen or examined a blown up LSX; but the development and growth of the Zinc Phosphate film is dependent upon the rubbing of steel(aluminum or any high yield) surfaces. After 10 seconds of rubbing(creating high temperature and pressure) a significant 10 angstrom thick phosphate surface develops, after 30 minutes of rubbing the film increases to 600-800 angstrom film. The flat tappet is a classic example of where a ZDDP film would be created and needed, the roller bearing cam portion of the engine would not need more ZDDP but this protective film will also be created in other rubbing surfaces perhaps the ones that cause a catastrophic blow up in the LSX's. If the engines blow up as a result of a dropped valve or a timing chain or a rod exploding then no amount of ZDDP will prevent it but if the failures are a result of oil starvation leading to excessive localized friction after repeated rubbing....

vette6aut0x

What does "tested worst" mean? Unless his engine is failing, are there really enough constituents in the oil analysis to determine how the oil is performing? Especially considering all the variables that would exist from event to event (venue, weather, traffic, etc, etc). When the ppm levels are low, these variables and inconsistensies are magnified.
Which elements were elevated in the "worst" oils?

Sidney004

You can see a trend of increasing or decreasing wear metals that are definitely above the "noise" of a street driven engine, the wear levels of my LT1 are 10X higher than a Honda. The elements of interest are Fe, Pb, Al, Ni, Cr, Sn which correlate to particular engine components. Here is the trend in my LT1:http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums...52#Post1306952
A real expert like Terry Dyson can provide a lot of valuable insight:
http://www.dysonanalysis.com/

0Randy@DRM

I don't think it would matter either way. But I don't know enough about it, I did about 15 mintues on the google machine. It seems like most are having issues with flat tappets and big lift.

Randy

C66 Racing

Not hard to get, ordering info in my sig and it will come to your door.

My opinion on this topic in general is that high ZDDP levels are important to the bearings on our LSx engines on the track.

VetteDrmr

That's my question: what other high-pressure "rubbing surfaces" are there? Bearings depend on an oil film and have little to no metal-metal contact, ring to cylinder wall actually scrapes the cylinder wall clean (I think). Maybe rocker to valve stem could qualify, but there's not much movement there (compared to cam to flat tappet surfaces), and I've not heard of problems in that area anyway.

I just don't think that, for our LSx engines with stock valvetrains, need high ZDDP oils. Modded track engines obviously have unique requirements, but I understood the OP to be discussing stock engines.

Have a good one,
Mike

TDBurke

The car in question is a BMW racecar that drives on and off a trailer, sees zero street use. I don't have the analysis results available to me to post here. As I understand it, in this situation, its not so much what is elevated in the oil but what isn't in the formulation and the viscosity break down.

Subdriver, I wasn't insinuating that Amsoil is hard to get, I think I've seen it at NAPA here. I'd like to try the Dominator race oils this season so I'll likely be clicking that link in your sig.

mikahb

Mobil 1 10W-30 - only left about 2 qts off-track right-side just before the climbing esses at VIR. Just recently pulled the oil pan off - holy CRAP there were a lot of aluminum frosted flakes in there! Pistons 4-6 are all gone along with associated connecting rods. Longest peice of rod I found is about 3". Pistons 3 and 7 are broken, but not shattered. Block inside looks like a grenade went off in there - which is pretty much what happened.

Now running AMSOIL 20W-50 in the new motor, purchased through Brad (Subdriver).

Slalom4me

It would be interesting to see photos (Macro = 'On') of the tops
of the intact pistons & remainders of the tops of the damaged
ones.

Photos of the rod journals, bearings, big ends and little ends would
also be interesting.

Perhaps in a new thread?

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