BrianCunningham

Thought you might find this interesting:
http://www.corvettesnccc.org/

Axelrod

I think the NCCC needs to revamp it's marketing approach.

Last time I joined a Vette club (years ago), there was a mandatory membership to the NCCC that was "included" in the club membership.

I went to a few of the high-speed events-- but you need a PhD to diagnose the classification of your car if it is modified.

BrianCunningham

That's to get the $1M insurance coverage.

And yes NCCC rules are even more convoluted than SCCA rules

But, they are a single type of car.

On the other hand, you don't need to strictly follow the classing, only if you want NCCC points.

Case in point, my clubs runs three classes at autocrosses:
Race tire
Street tire
Non-Corvette

Bill Dearborn

Hopefully, the lay out of the new rule book helps people figure out their classification. Most of the stuff was put in a table last year and that helped quite a bit toward figuring out what is allowed in one class Vs another.

Bill

exracer28

Why are they so against racing? I belonged for a while but it seems once the folks got into positions of power they never move out and any new ideas are rejected. It would help if there were term limits.

FASTZ

I found this to be the exact opposite.They were all about racing.But that was the group that I associated with.There were other clubs who would only go to car shows.NCCC allows for both with it's rules.And as mentioned as long as you not interested in collecting the points you can run any car that passes tech inspection and compete for FTD.But you have to have classes or you will have the guys in the 600 rwhp cars competing against a stock 1978 185hp car.I am sure that will make you feel good about yourself
As far as the people in power I think that you are way off base.Believe me the people that are in there would really openly accept new voices.The problems no one steps up.So you end up with the same people year after year.It is really easy to say do this or do that without being to one who does it

VetteDrmr

My personal experience with NCCC has not been good; the club is a waxer club (although they claim they have 14 autocross events a year, those 14 are 2 runs/event that are run on one weekend ) that won't allow any non-Vette participation *at all*.

However, there are many here that have NCCC clubs that are much less **** and elitist, so it really depends on your local club and what you want.

Have a good one,
Mike

GS023

Mike
You should venture out more. The region you are in is one of the busiest in the country. We already have 118 events over eleven weekends on the 2009 schedule most of which are autocrosses at tracks like: Hallett, GS Speedway, and Texas Motor Speedway. The Hallett and GS events have playdays on the Friday before. I disagree about the elitist statement also. I've been doing this for about 15 years and still love it. How many runs do you get at an SCCA Solo event in a weekend?
Also we do allow non-Vette participation in low speeds in a Guest class.

Joe

Solo2GS

I am part of TORCA in the Rocky Mountain NCCC Region and we have a great mix of folks. Personally I am all about racing and we have one of the largest group of folks who are into it as well. But as you can see from the points, TORCA, is number 1 in our region for participation in everything! We had members at every regional event this year.

Although I do not necessarily agree with how the whole points system works, I still participate in as many NCCC events as I can.

Special note: The 50th National Convention is being put on by our region this year in Colorado! You don't want to miss it!

I agree that classing is a bit much and needs to be consolidated. Too many classes with not enough cars in them. For my region I have proposed a simular PAX system, like SCCA, to better score participants against each other. Still working on it...

I saw someone mention about how leadership does not change. Like most clubs its 1% of the same folks always doing all the work! I know many would be more then appreciative for others to help out.

On the note about dues... Our club dues that include NCCC membership are 1/2 of what my SCCA membership costs me each year! Different regions will vary... When I used to live in Cali (Thank God I escaped) the dues were twice as much and we had virtually no NCCC racing presence in the LA area...

VetteDrmr

Joe,

I'm not sure if you're speaking as an NCCC governor or just a NCCC club member, but you make my point for me.

You run 11 events, not 118. Heck, if you want, call each run an event and you run 236.

Your group may be elitist, but trust me, Cowtown Corvettes is *very* elitist if you don't have a 'vette. They had a non-competitive autocross day at Mineral Wells and invited me to come. My son has a Nissan 240SX that he wanted to practice in; no deal. Plenty of room, and "if he brings a Vette he's welcome." Told them sorry, I'm not interested.

So, my point that "it depends on your local NCCC club" is affirmed by your comment; you allow non-Vettes to participate at some level and are more active in competitive events than the Ft. Worth club.

As for runs, I get 8 runs/day (event) with the BMW club, and 8-10 runs/day with the local PCA club. Those are one-day events.

Have a good one,
Mike

steponc

You might want to check out www.corvetteconvention.com. This is the WSCC Convention being hosted by Hot Vegas Vettes. You do not have to be a member, just bring your Vette and enjoy the festivities.
Poker run, Autocross, drag race, car show and more.
A great excuse for a mini-vacation in Vegas May 7-11.

Bill Dearborn

Not sure how running multiple events got started but I think it has to do in some cases with the cost of running an event and with the people running for points and what events they will attend. In a number of areas in the country it is hard to find a venue and when you do find one it isn't cheap to get access to the pavement. If you run multiple events you can reduce the overall charge per event and maybe get more participation. In upstate NY it is hard to get more than 10 Corvette drivers together at an event let alone get course workers, etc. When I say ten drivers I am talking about getting 10 drivers from a radius of 80 miles. As for point chasers there isn't much payback for traveling 800 miles to do one event. We have two great venues in upstate NY for autocrossing one in the Albany area and the other south of Syracuse. It costs $500 per day to rent the one south of Syracuse. That is the major factor in event pricing but it means close to a $70 per driver charge for one event in order for a club to cover its costs. Not sure what the costs are in other areas but they may be similar.

So after a while we see 14 event weekends so we can justify having any events at all and other people can rack up a lot of points.

As for letting other makes run at our events we do everything we can to get drivers of other makes to run. At some of our autocrosses there are more non-GM cars participating than Corvettes. They help pay the bills and are less work for the chairman than NCCC members whose participation has to be recorded and scored in the event summary.

Bill

VetteDrmr

Bill, I think you've hit on it exactly. Run more "events" so participants can score more points.

Have a good one,
Mike

parkerracing

Sorry guys but autocrosses and hi-speeds are NOT racing. I spoke at a National meeting in Louisville to both the eBoard and Comp Committiee about putting a real racing program in place ala PCA with a petition with over 300 names who already OWNED race preped Corvettes. (After you get beyond the stock classes, alot of the modded cars need plenty of attention between runs) and the reaction was....yawn. And only one sentence in the minutes published in Blue Bars. The funny thing is several of the RCD's race cars in SCCA (and elsewhere) and couldn't see the benefit of including it for the membership. I think I was the third person to bring it up over the years. It may have come up again since 1997.

Bill Dearborn

A while ago I tried to push for that as well and used the new at the time BMW club race program as an example. The feedback I got was there were plenty of venues for people to go wheel to wheel racing and NCCC wasn't going to support it.

In the previous rule book we were able to get some support for HPDEs but I see in the 2008 book all that was taken away with the one rule that eliminates passengers during high speed events. While working on the 2004-2007 rule book we were able to get passengers in and passing approved. One problem is some NCCC rules makers don't want passengers in cars which eliminates in car instructing. Other people practically fainted over the idea of allowing passing with a point by. This isn't because of insurance reasons. The insurance is based on the rule book so if it is in the rule book it is covered.

Bill

Solo2GS

Our region has enough Vette's to enter the auto-x events and we do allow guest metal metal cars by invitation. I personally don't see the need to open it up to everyone. SCCA has a great venue for all cars! BMW has a great venue for BMW's to auto-x. The Pinto club... well!

While I enjoy seeing all makes & models auto-x I see plenty during my SCCA season. When I am out with NCCC, when time permits, its good to see the cars that the club is designed around!

Our region has open practice on the tracks before a high speed event. The practice is basically a morning HPDE. Few and far between are in Group 2 with race tires. W2W is a great idea, but in some regions such as mine there is no one that is prepped that much.

BrianCunningham

The trouble you get into when you open up venues to other cars, is that you run the risk of them taking it over.

Don't laugh, that's exactly what happened to COMscc (http://www.comscc.org/). They USED to be a Corvette club (Corvettes of MA). The started letting the metal cars in when #'s where short on the signup sheet. GM got a hold of the fact that non-Covettes (actually race cars) were winning the events, and made them pull the Corvette name. It's now no longer a Corvette club. Last time I ran with them I was one of 2 Corvettes in a field of 40 cars

VetteDrmr

I rest my case.

NavyVet

Debi and I both compete in SCCA and NCCC autocrosses. Please remember that SCCA is an organization designed to provide a venue for all makes and models, so classes are broad and occasionally a car gets included that is over/under competitive in that class. That's why they review and update classes periodically. SCCA cannot make classes for all the variations of Corvettes over all the years, or they would have to do so for every make and it would be an impossible task. We think they do a terrific job considering that their target audience is everyone.

NCCC autocrosses are different from SCCA events in that Corvette Clubs host them. Corvette Clubs are for Corvettes. There are other make clubs for Porsches, Vipers, and possibly even Nissan 240s or Pintos. A make-specific club should be expected to host events for that specific make, right? So, if a NCCC club hosts an autocross and it is only for Corvettes, why would anyone complain? Or, even expect other makes to be included? That's what a Corvette club is designed for and Corvette clubs that limit entries to Corvettes should not be denigrated for doing what their club is designed to do.

That said, some Corvette Clubs, including ours, invite (key word is "invite") "friends" to participate in their autocrosses. This increases the fun for all, but more importantly helps a make-specific club that is paying a fee for a site to defray the expense somewhat. Think here - local SCCA events average 150 cars of all makes and they pay the same track rent as our Corvette Club that puts on a club event with 30-50 entries. So, when our club invites friends who drive Lotuses (what is the correct plural - Lotusi?), Vipers, Porsches, BMWs, etc, we help keep the days' cost reasonable for all entrants. Back to inviting friends - our Corvette Club helps novice Corvette drivers to the best of our ability, but we limit non-Corvette entries to those we know will act right, drive right, and not need special attention. That way, our small group of Corvette autocrossers can help new Corvette autocrossers. Remember, new autocrossers without Corvettes have SCCA as their start-up point.

You say that Corvette owners are elitists! Well, sure. But, so are Porsche, Viper, Mustang, BMW, and other make owners. The people in the BMW club all think they have the greatest car, don’t they? Well, the people in any make club should think that way! The fact that we are proud of our Corvettes is what keeps Corvettes selling. Ditto for all other makes.

Regarding the NCCC points system, this is an area where there is no way to make everyone happy. Out here in the southwest, we do not create autocrosses with an eye toward letting people accumulate points for points’ sake. We do not care about national points, so we concentrate on autocross courses that are: First, fun; Second, present drivers with speed sections as well as sections with varying types of skill elements; and Third, long enough to be challenging and so drivers never complain about them being too short. Corvette competitors earn points within the region, so they are all on equal footing for end-of-year region recognition. We get in about 9-10 runs/day and everyone has fun. That’s what is important, fun, fun, fun. We normally end up with around 10-12 autocross days each year with 2-3 different courses to run on each day. People who want more autocross days, including us, go to SCCA autocrosses too.

We autocross because it is fun, offers a tremendous challenge (you cannot practice and every course is different), requires very quick actions so thereby produces a feeling of great speed, provides a great thrill and rush when a run is right on all the way, and is a relatively inexpensive and very safe way to have fun.

People who want to “race” need to join the SCCA club racing program, or a similar program. HPDE events are specifically defined as “not racing.” Although autocrossers call it racing, we are racing against the clock, not alongside anyone with the risks inherent in that environment. BTW, when I raced sled dogs compeititvely, tams started at intervals of several minutes. Wasn't that racing? \Anyway, autocrossing is still a form of racing from the competitor’s perspective, even though it may not be by the definitions of some other organizations. Many of us once were involved in actual open track racing environment (or will be in the future), but decided that form of competition which with its potential for wrecked cars, injuries from crashes and hitting walls, and the extreme expense was not the hobby we wanted at the “today” point in our lives.

So, do not expect autocrossing and the NCCC venue to be all answers for all people. It does work well for about 19,000 members. Make the best of NCCC by having fun in that environment. If you want door-to-door wheel-to-wheel racing, choose a sponsoring program that provides it. Do not expect one program that very successfully performs its stated role and objectives to change to a different set of objectives. Instead, if those objectives are not what you want, find the program that meets your desires and join it.

NCCC is an organization that was foudned to promote all aspects of Corvetting. To that end, it has structured programs for Judged Concours shows, People's Choice shows, three levels of rallyes, caravans, funkhanas, and other types of events. Its rulebook covers these venues and is available online. As for the complexity of the classification for autocrosses, the new online format may make it easier to see the differneces among groups for each form of modification. NCCC does a good job of trying to provide "competition potential balanced" classes for the many different Corvette chassis, drivetrain, and suspension combinations from over 55 years of Corvette production. That is one of the benefits of a make-specific organization. It can go into detail to provide competitive classes based upon similar capabilities.

Debi and I are life members of NCCC. We have concurrently competed in SCCA and never expected either group to be identical to the other. If you belong to NCCC and have suggestions for improvement, get involved. Take your sugestions to your Regional Competition Director (RCD) and explain how they will improve safety, attendance, competition, fun, etc. Your RCD is your advocate at the national level and will listen and then take your suggestions to the national competition committee for discussion. Before you gripe about NCCC not being what you think it should be, did you bring your suggestions for improvement up for discussion in your club or region? I repeat, if you don't like or agree with something, become involved in improving it instead of griping while doing nothing constructive.

Paul Hamersly
NCCC Roadrunner RCD

FASTZ

very well said
Paul Z