R Mackow

I know this is not a Corvette subject, but I wanted to through it out on the table, due to vast amount of collective driving experience here, and see if anyone else may be aware of incidents like this ocurring with a 2007 Honda Civic Hybrid. Here's the story:
My daughter, the driver, was driving to work(8:30AM) two day ago and spun her Civic around 180 degrees facing oncoming interstate highway traffic. The circumstances were that it was snowing and there was a 20mph cross wind, the pavement under the tire tracks was clean, ambient temperature was about 20deg F. The cars rear end started coming around and she corrected for it, causing the rear end to come around the other side. Basically, she was correcting the oversteer, but got the car into a synchrous side to side swaying across two lanes of traffic, until she finally lost it, spun 180 degrees, and found herself looking at oncoming traffic.
She is very competent driving in snow and knows the basics of how to control understeer and oversteer, and has attended my snowy parking lot driving course several times, plus doing a stint at UConn in her chevy cavalier.
Her comment was she never had a car react like this and did not care for it(I'm understating her comments here,... explitives deleted.)
Has anyone else experience this type of lack of control with the Civic? Is the hybrid model less stable than the standard Civic? is there any issues with weight distributiion that could contribute to having less control at highway speeds?

StealthLT4

Interesting. The only issue I had with my old car ('02 civic coupe) was that it would hydroplane like nothing. 2500 lbs, and I had 205-width rubber (stock was 185 I believe). So I had to be very careful in the rain and snow, but I never had anything like that happen. :

ErnieN85

The extra weight of batteries would add a lot of mass and make it harder to stop a oscillation once it begins.
(more care needed to see that it doesn't)

Ojustracing

The car wouldnt happen to have 2 snow tires just on the front or really worn out rear tires?

John

rustyguns

crappy shocks?

0Randy@DRM

To make a long story short, I sold my 04 civic for these reasons. My plan was to have my wife drive it when her 99 high mileage car goes to hell. Honda's have really lost their good feel in the past 10 years. Our 04 sucked in the snow, cross winds, and at the limit.

Randy

JMB92

They have low rolling resistance tires which have terrible grip, but good fuel economy. Also, IIRC the 2007s did not have ESC standard? This model has horrendous understeer, which is good a lot of the time, but once it is lost recovery is tough.

gonzalezfj

That's typical behavior for overcorrection (too much countersteer). The car slams in the opposite direction and each oscillation has a larger amplitude until the car spins out.

I bet she also lifted on the throttle, which unloaded the rear wheels and made them lose even more lateral traction. Front wheel drive cars need to have some power applied in order to recover quickly from a slide.

Frank Gonzalez

0Randy@DRM

Good point. The guys at the tire store hate me. But my wifes 99 honda is great in the snow. Tall, skinny snow tires, the goal is to make the contact patch longer then the stock MPG setup. The skinny make it easier to cut into the snow and get down to something with traction.

Randy

R Mackow

Car just had new rear tires put on 2 weeks. Car only has 20k miles on it. Fronts have about 6/32".
I was thinking shocks, but only 20K miles seems really premature for worn shocks. Maybe a much stiffer shock would improve instability?

ryan0

brand new skinny tires are pretty squirley for the first few weeks.

i was shocked at how loose my truck was with new, tall deep tread tires.

old front tires had more grip... therefore around she went.

Slalom4me

Did the shop make alterations to the alignment? In particular,
to the rear toe setting?

.

R Mackow

A couple of added facts:
Speed was not 60mph only 40mph and VWs were flying by.
Rear alignment toe is 2.2(not sure if this is toe in or out and I assume this is in degrees.) Spec range is 0.4 to 1.6.
I've had a discussion with the dealership service manager and they insist that rear toe, although out side of range, will not affect tire wear. I question if the stability on the highway could be a result of the out of spec rear toe. Front toe = 0.0.
Also caster is 6.8-7.2 degrees, thrust angle = 0.0, frt camber: LF = 0.0; RF = -0.5.
Rear camber: LR = -0.7; RR = -1.3

My thought is that the service manager needs some lessions in alignment and I will most likely change dealerships. But I would like your thoughts on the rear toe setting and if it would have influence on driving in across wind.

VetteDrmr

Wow, I'd think 2.2 degrees of rear toe-in would make the car really prone to rotating, and would aggravate any slide recovery.

OTOH, if the rutted road conditions were snowy (and probably icy in the packed/"clear" ruts), I think any alignment is a minor point towards the overall environment she was in.

I'm just glad she wasn't hurt and (I'm assuming) the car wasn't damaged.

Have a good one,
Mike

OzCop

Over-correcting steering and unloading the rear by lifting off the accelerator can set up a scenario like this, especially in windy, wet road conditions. Typical of fwd vehicles. I'd also check air pressures and make certain the rear's are'nt too low, or too high, allowing early sidewall distortion or creating a loss of contact patch respectively.

Even good drivers can make a mistake...

Slalom4me

If positive, toe figures are Toe-In. Negative figures indicate Toe-out.

Owned from new, a '95 Jetta in the family fleet had unusual rear toe
values. There was no provision for adjustment of rear toe and
the values could not be brought into spec without replacement
of parts according to the dealer. Knowing the history of the vehicle
meant damage was unlikely and not receiving any guarantee from
the dealer that replacement would resolve the out-of-spec toe, we
elected to live with it.

Abnormal tire wear was not observed, but in bad winter highway
conditions (blowing snow over bare patches with black ice, crosswinds
and speeds of 50 - 65: high for conditions) the tail of the car could
start to wag the dog. Slowing down dampened the oscillation.
Speeding up caused the oscillation to grow in intensity.

My vote is that toe-in acts to pre-tension the suspension, taking slack
out of the linkages so that the tires track straight ahead once the
vehicle is underway. Out-of-spec toe settings lead to slip-angle
between the tire and the road. What happens in such a case when
road friction is inconsistent?

.

Slalom4me

R Mackow, did your daughter say whether she experienced oscillation
at the rear prior to the initial skid for which she began to countersteer?

Or was there a sudden skid, followed by a series of corrections & skids?

.

R Mackow

The road surface was clean except for a small patch of hard packed snow under the centerline of the car. Strong cross winds. Ocillation started at 40mph, with slight pressure on the gas pedel( climbing about a 4% grade.) Other cars were passing. 40mph was just being maintained. Tire pressures are within 1 psi of door tag spec.

Then oscillation got extreme - across two lanes of traffic, until the over correcting or correcting took it's toll and she spun out.
How do you go from a light foot on the "go pedal" to spinning around?

The dealer insists that 2.2 deg toe is OK, even though .4 to 1.6 is spec'd. I will probably change tires to another brand and get alignment checked.

R Mackow

Let me be clear. There were no skids prior to the oscillation. Oscillation started, and driver backed off gas(no brakes). Oscillation increased. Counter streering was intiated. Oscillation could not be controlled. Then spin out.

gonzalezfj

See post #8. Backed off gas = oscillation increased.

Proper technique:

1) Countersteer just enough to point the front wheels in the exact direction of intended travel.
2) Don't lift.
3) Continue steering corrections as needed.

The ability to do this in a timely manner doesn't come naturally. It must be learned.

Frank Gonzalez