Toyo R888s Pressure Info
03-13-2009, 03:46 PM
#1
Safety Car
Thread Starter
Toyo R888s Pressure Info
This was recently posted on our local BMW ACA forum, it's worth reading if you use R888s.
The reason I wanted Ed’s number was to pass on some information that
was posted to the web last night about the Toyo R888. Ed is down at
Thunderhill working with Spec Miata Racers Ken Sutherland and Bruce
Wilson. They are running R888s. Since many of the RA-i tire sizes
will be going away over the coming year many of you will find yourself
switching to some R888s for track day use. It appears that if you
treat them like RA-is, you are likely to be disappointed. Here is
the information from Ron Cortez the owner of AIM tire (that’s where
AnT get’s their Toyos).
Peace, Track,
Kurt
> Ok, here’s the deal on the R-888’s. > > I’d advise you one and all to TRY the suggestions I will make and > then make a decision as to the speed and durabilty of the R-888 Vs > the Ra-i AFTER you try
> these new ideas.
>
> But only AFTER you try the new settings.
>
> A bit of History:
> I first experienced excessive wear and bad handling of the R888 at
> the 2007 NASA 25 hour race on Mike Quan’s Honda Civic with Roger Foo
> at the wheel.
>
> Great team, excellent drivers. They came down in the middle of the
> night to ask if I could look at a tire issue they were having.
> Seems that TOYO had given them some new 888’s to ‘try’ in the 25
> hour race. First off, during a race is the WRONG time to try
> anything NEW.
> Let alone sort out a new tire. But, it was what it was and these
> things happen.
>
> The issue was the car was pushing (front wheel drive car) and was
> wearing out the centers of the tires at an alarming rate.
> Well, one look at the worn centers and I suggested LOWERING the
> pressure. We did.
> And they began to wear out QUICKER and the handling became worse! It
> made no sense to me whatsoever.
>
> Fortunately the team had enough RA-i’s to complete the race and
> never put the R-888’s back on the car.
> But, that adjustment in air pressure SHOULD HAVE worked. It had for
years on all types of tires. But it didn’t and it stuck in my mind
over the winter.
The start of the 2008 season:
In the NASA races the BMW E-3o class cars were allowed to run either
the RA-i or the R-888 until June of 2008. Most jumped to the R-888
right away.
But that deal about the tire wearing out quickly in the middle still
bugged me. So, I kept an eye on them.
Early on I asked Donny Edwards to allow us to ‘try’ something on his
E-3o. At Thunderhill we sent Donny out at 40 lbs STARTING pressure!
He had already raced on them with the normal RA-i starting pressure
of 32 lbs, ending at 4Olbs hot and was doing well. But, now I was
asking him
to START at 40 lbs.
His comment after coming off the track was that the car felt more
stable and quicker. His times proved that he was correct.
We kept an eye on Donny’s car during the year and asked if he was
geffing any excessive wear. Donny’s comment was that the car was
used not only for the E-3o practice, qualifying and races but for
every available session during the weekend. And no, they didn’t wear
quicker.
With this knowledge I then asked a HPDE driver, another trusted
friend, if he would go out at 401bs cold in his Porsche All wheel
drive 911 Turbo. The thing weights a ton! He had already been out
for 2 sessions at the lower RA-i pressure setting on his new R-888’s
and LOVED the tires. Now, I was asking him to go out at a starting
pressure of 4olbs. “Are you crazy” he asked. Maybe, but just try it
for me.
His comment in coming off of the track was “I thought they were
hooked up this morning with the lower pressure, but now they’re
REALLYhookedup.”
He loves the R-888 tires.
I’m relating these stories to help you all understand that I didn’t
come by these very unusual pressure settings without some
forethought, testing on various cars
with different drives and then analyzing the results.
Last story. At the NASA banquet one of the E-3o competitors came up
and said that he finally put the pressure up to where I suggested at
the last race.
I asked how it worked for him. He said that he had turned a lap only
i/ioth of a second off of Donny Edwards fastest lap. I asked why he
had not done that earlier in the year and he stated that he just
couldn’t believe that pressures that high would work. Even though HE
had maintained Donny’s car all year and knew exactly what we were
using for starting pressure!
Asked how high the air pressure was that he used before, he said
that he had started them at 38 and they went to about 42-44 hot.
But, that the hot pressure Donny ran was 45-47. He stated that he
could not believe the difference that 45-47 hot pressure made on his
car. That it just came alive. 2-4 lbs in hot pressure does make a
> difference.
>
> E-3o’s wear? Even across the tire! Heat cycle o. Wear rate: same as
> or better than the RA-i. How long do they wear? Down to the cords,
> just as the RA-is did.
>
> We’ve used these same pressure settings for a Porsche 996 Cup full
> race car that normally races on Michelin or Yokohama slick tires and
> with the same results. No heat cycling, no excessive wear and
> totally fun and drivable.
>
> SM competitors, the R-888 has a different construction. A huge
> change in the design of the tire. You must make some changes to:
> i) Your driving style
> 2) Your air pressure settings
> 3) Your chassis setup
> To get the most out the new R-888’s.
>
>
> Staying with the same old setup, same old pressure and same driving
> style will not prove beneficial.
>
> My suggestions:
> i) Start with the exact chassis setup you have with the RA-i
> 2) Start the R-888 with 40 to 42 lbs of pressure.
> 3) Look for 45-47 as your hot pressure goal.
> 4) Lower the rear of your car to allow the car to run FLAT, no rake!
> 5) Drive the car as you would a real race tire with as little
> sliding as possible but concentrate on using the additional side
> grip and better braking advantage the R-888 has over the RA-i.
> That’s just to start with. Ultimately, a change in sway bar settings
> may be beneficial.
>
> If you can’t get the tire up to 45-47 lbs, start with a HIGHER
> pressure.
>
> Ultimately, I believe that you will find that about 3 to 3.5 degrees
> of negative camber will do the trick and with little or no toe out
> in the front and little or no
> toe in for the rear.
>
> This should to the trick. Let me know if I can help you.
>
> Thanks,
> Ron Cortez
The reason I wanted Ed’s number was to pass on some information that
was posted to the web last night about the Toyo R888. Ed is down at
Thunderhill working with Spec Miata Racers Ken Sutherland and Bruce
Wilson. They are running R888s. Since many of the RA-i tire sizes
will be going away over the coming year many of you will find yourself
switching to some R888s for track day use. It appears that if you
treat them like RA-is, you are likely to be disappointed. Here is
the information from Ron Cortez the owner of AIM tire (that’s where
AnT get’s their Toyos).
Peace, Track,
Kurt
> Ok, here’s the deal on the R-888’s. > > I’d advise you one and all to TRY the suggestions I will make and > then make a decision as to the speed and durabilty of the R-888 Vs > the Ra-i AFTER you try
> these new ideas.
>
> But only AFTER you try the new settings.
>
> A bit of History:
> I first experienced excessive wear and bad handling of the R888 at
> the 2007 NASA 25 hour race on Mike Quan’s Honda Civic with Roger Foo
> at the wheel.
>
> Great team, excellent drivers. They came down in the middle of the
> night to ask if I could look at a tire issue they were having.
> Seems that TOYO had given them some new 888’s to ‘try’ in the 25
> hour race. First off, during a race is the WRONG time to try
> anything NEW.
> Let alone sort out a new tire. But, it was what it was and these
> things happen.
>
> The issue was the car was pushing (front wheel drive car) and was
> wearing out the centers of the tires at an alarming rate.
> Well, one look at the worn centers and I suggested LOWERING the
> pressure. We did.
> And they began to wear out QUICKER and the handling became worse! It
> made no sense to me whatsoever.
>
> Fortunately the team had enough RA-i’s to complete the race and
> never put the R-888’s back on the car.
> But, that adjustment in air pressure SHOULD HAVE worked. It had for
years on all types of tires. But it didn’t and it stuck in my mind
over the winter.
The start of the 2008 season:
In the NASA races the BMW E-3o class cars were allowed to run either
the RA-i or the R-888 until June of 2008. Most jumped to the R-888
right away.
But that deal about the tire wearing out quickly in the middle still
bugged me. So, I kept an eye on them.
Early on I asked Donny Edwards to allow us to ‘try’ something on his
E-3o. At Thunderhill we sent Donny out at 40 lbs STARTING pressure!
He had already raced on them with the normal RA-i starting pressure
of 32 lbs, ending at 4Olbs hot and was doing well. But, now I was
asking him
to START at 40 lbs.
His comment after coming off the track was that the car felt more
stable and quicker. His times proved that he was correct.
We kept an eye on Donny’s car during the year and asked if he was
geffing any excessive wear. Donny’s comment was that the car was
used not only for the E-3o practice, qualifying and races but for
every available session during the weekend. And no, they didn’t wear
quicker.
With this knowledge I then asked a HPDE driver, another trusted
friend, if he would go out at 401bs cold in his Porsche All wheel
drive 911 Turbo. The thing weights a ton! He had already been out
for 2 sessions at the lower RA-i pressure setting on his new R-888’s
and LOVED the tires. Now, I was asking him to go out at a starting
pressure of 4olbs. “Are you crazy” he asked. Maybe, but just try it
for me.
His comment in coming off of the track was “I thought they were
hooked up this morning with the lower pressure, but now they’re
REALLYhookedup.”
He loves the R-888 tires.
I’m relating these stories to help you all understand that I didn’t
come by these very unusual pressure settings without some
forethought, testing on various cars
with different drives and then analyzing the results.
Last story. At the NASA banquet one of the E-3o competitors came up
and said that he finally put the pressure up to where I suggested at
the last race.
I asked how it worked for him. He said that he had turned a lap only
i/ioth of a second off of Donny Edwards fastest lap. I asked why he
had not done that earlier in the year and he stated that he just
couldn’t believe that pressures that high would work. Even though HE
had maintained Donny’s car all year and knew exactly what we were
using for starting pressure!
Asked how high the air pressure was that he used before, he said
that he had started them at 38 and they went to about 42-44 hot.
But, that the hot pressure Donny ran was 45-47. He stated that he
could not believe the difference that 45-47 hot pressure made on his
car. That it just came alive. 2-4 lbs in hot pressure does make a
> difference.
>
> E-3o’s wear? Even across the tire! Heat cycle o. Wear rate: same as
> or better than the RA-i. How long do they wear? Down to the cords,
> just as the RA-is did.
>
> We’ve used these same pressure settings for a Porsche 996 Cup full
> race car that normally races on Michelin or Yokohama slick tires and
> with the same results. No heat cycling, no excessive wear and
> totally fun and drivable.
>
> SM competitors, the R-888 has a different construction. A huge
> change in the design of the tire. You must make some changes to:
> i) Your driving style
> 2) Your air pressure settings
> 3) Your chassis setup
> To get the most out the new R-888’s.
>
>
> Staying with the same old setup, same old pressure and same driving
> style will not prove beneficial.
>
> My suggestions:
> i) Start with the exact chassis setup you have with the RA-i
> 2) Start the R-888 with 40 to 42 lbs of pressure.
> 3) Look for 45-47 as your hot pressure goal.
> 4) Lower the rear of your car to allow the car to run FLAT, no rake!
> 5) Drive the car as you would a real race tire with as little
> sliding as possible but concentrate on using the additional side
> grip and better braking advantage the R-888 has over the RA-i.
> That’s just to start with. Ultimately, a change in sway bar settings
> may be beneficial.
>
> If you can’t get the tire up to 45-47 lbs, start with a HIGHER
> pressure.
>
> Ultimately, I believe that you will find that about 3 to 3.5 degrees
> of negative camber will do the trick and with little or no toe out
> in the front and little or no
> toe in for the rear.
>
> This should to the trick. Let me know if I can help you.
>
> Thanks,
> Ron Cortez
03-13-2009, 04:46 PM
#2
Safety Car
Thanks for the information. Very informing, and from what I've read stumbling across the internet before ordering mine, it DOES sound like these tires like higher then normal pressures.
Last edited by Rob Willis; 03-13-2009 at 05:17 PM.
03-13-2009, 05:24 PM
#4
Safety Car
Ron @ AIMTires gave me the same advice. I bumped up from starting at 28psi to around 34-36psi and the tires just keep getting better the more air I give them... the TPMS is going to hate me and start dinging like crazy about overpressure on the track, I bet...
03-14-2009, 02:43 AM
#6
Safety Car
Thread Starter
My last trip to THill last year was my first time out on the 888s and I was running 32 rear 34 front cold. The car felt a little twitchy going into turn 1, but other than that I was very happy with the tires. Looking forward to April 18/19 at THill to try the new pressure out and I would really like to hear how it works for you.
03-14-2009, 10:01 AM
#7
Burning Brakes
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I was running 30psi cold, car felt good, but the tires didn't last very long. I guess I will have to try 40psi, but it just felt kind of odd to go up that much as grip usually decreases as you go up.
03-14-2009, 08:14 PM
#8
Le Mans Master
Member Since: Dec 2005
Location: Port Arthur, Texas 77642
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I was using cold 34/32 then increased to 38/36 and noticed improved grip with less push....next time out I'll follow the above advice and take it up a couple more. Thanks for the helpful information.
03-15-2009, 10:59 AM
#9
Burning Brakes
03-15-2009, 11:26 AM
#10
Drifting
I've never experienced anything but DIC warnings on overpressure, but then I've never been that deep into the 40's. I've read that underpressure is where the car activates "countermeasures".
From the '06 shop manual:
"If the TPM system detects a tire pressure above 289kPa (42 psi), the HIGH TIRE PRESSURE warning message is displayed. If the system senses a tire pressure between 34-172 kPa (5-25 psi), the LOW TIRE PRESSURE warning message is displayed. And if the system senses below 34 kPa (5psi), the FLAT TIRE warning message is displayed. After this message, 2 chimes will sound followed by the message MAX SPEED 55 MPH. The next message to appear is REDUCED HANDLING."
Seems to imply that nothing active is going to happen on overpressure.
FM
From the '06 shop manual:
"If the TPM system detects a tire pressure above 289kPa (42 psi), the HIGH TIRE PRESSURE warning message is displayed. If the system senses a tire pressure between 34-172 kPa (5-25 psi), the LOW TIRE PRESSURE warning message is displayed. And if the system senses below 34 kPa (5psi), the FLAT TIRE warning message is displayed. After this message, 2 chimes will sound followed by the message MAX SPEED 55 MPH. The next message to appear is REDUCED HANDLING."
Seems to imply that nothing active is going to happen on overpressure.
FM
Last edited by FredSM; 03-15-2009 at 11:42 AM.
03-15-2009, 02:25 PM
#11
Safety Car
It beeps and beeps and beeps and beeps. It's very annoying with the over-pressure warning. Everything keeps working, it's just really annoying and difficult to ignore.
(I hit it the first day out @ Thunderhill with the C6 with the Supercars on...)
(I hit it the first day out @ Thunderhill with the C6 with the Supercars on...)
03-15-2009, 04:05 PM
#13
Burning Brakes
Glen-
You probably have the right idea by simply not using the TPMS for DE sessions. I did that at VIR last year once without any ill effects during any 25-30 minute sessions.
The next time I was there, I programmed the TPMS in the same tires, thinking it would be smart to keep an eye on the pressures while on-track. Unfortunately, they did indeed cause the DIC to throw the warning and bong like crazy when the pressures got up around 40 psi.
When running without TPMS in my '08 C6, all I have to do is reset the DIC just before taking to the track each time. It didn't prevent the use of Competition Mode, the TC/AH gave me no issues and the DIC stayed quiet.
You probably have the right idea by simply not using the TPMS for DE sessions. I did that at VIR last year once without any ill effects during any 25-30 minute sessions.
The next time I was there, I programmed the TPMS in the same tires, thinking it would be smart to keep an eye on the pressures while on-track. Unfortunately, they did indeed cause the DIC to throw the warning and bong like crazy when the pressures got up around 40 psi.
When running without TPMS in my '08 C6, all I have to do is reset the DIC just before taking to the track each time. It didn't prevent the use of Competition Mode, the TC/AH gave me no issues and the DIC stayed quiet.
03-16-2009, 02:23 AM
#15
Safety Car
Thread Starter
Exactly, and many track cars, Vipers come to mind, are set up with a level ride for the track. The slight rake recommended for the C5s isn't going to affect the tire performance that much.
05-04-2009, 08:42 PM
#16
Instructor
Member Since: Jan 2006
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Has anyone been able to confirm that they are getting more grip with the higher pressures? I started at about 40 (hot) and have (in a few iterations) found there to be more grip be dropping to about 36 hot. I was actually thinking about going lower. Running up to 45 or 47 hot doesn't seem like it would help the grip level.
05-04-2009, 08:45 PM
#17
Melting Slicks
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Has anyone been able to confirm that they are getting more grip with the higher pressures? I started at about 40 (hot) and have (in a few iterations) found there to be more grip be dropping to about 36 hot. I was actually thinking about going lower. Running up to 45 or 47 hot doesn't seem like it would help the grip level.
I've had good luck starting out 36-37 lbs. They get up to 41-42 quickly and really stick.
05-04-2009, 10:58 PM
#19
Safety Car
Thread Starter
Just got back from two days at Thunderhill, 92 degrees both days, and at that temperature I was starting at 34/35 cold and ending up at 45/46 hot. I couldn't have been happier with the way those tires stuck. Now I've got to get out in the shop and see how even the tread wear was.
05-05-2009, 10:55 AM
#20
Le Mans Master
Member Since: Dec 2005
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Just got back from two days at Thunderhill, 92 degrees both days, and at that temperature I was starting at 34/35 cold and ending up at 45/46 hot. I couldn't have been happier with the way those tires stuck. Now I've got to get out in the shop and see how even the tread wear was.