Short-Throw

Here are a few thoughts from Randy Pobst:

Found on page 18 of Sep 09 edition of Sportscar Magazine (SCCA)






True enough that driving with all features on can be invasive, getting them not to engage while employed does help with learning smoothness and not over-driving the car.




Mike

wtknght1

Yep, I read that a day ago and you beat me to the post! ha ha It's a good article.

BrianCunningham

AU N EGL

That is one of the biggest questions:

"Should I turn the AH/TC OFF or leave it ON?"

Answer" "YES"

Leave them ON to learn Smoothness and Control.

Turn them OFF to learn to drive

cgh1

Back in the day, I used to be a hard critique and say "Turn that stuff off and learn to drive the car!" but nowa daze, the capabilities of cars out there is so high and the stability control logic and overall system quality so high, I have completely reversed my stance.

I now tell people to leave stability control ON until it interferes with their smooth driving techniques. Much like Randy says, I tell people to use it as an alarm system to let you know when you're not being smooth or arguing with Sir Newton. Only when you can drive laps and surprise yourself by it NOT interfering is it time to consider a next step... and that step looks like increasing entry speeds while leaving it ON to judge when it is interfering and when it is saving one's bacon.

One thing I'd disagree with Randy on (and I know he's considering the fact that he's putting his remarks in a magazine and the liability that comes with it...) is when he says we should never add power to correct a slide that is too big. Well, if we induced that slide by removing power; be it we got spooked or just overdid our TTO/Trail Braking, then moving weight to the rear is the only thing that's gonna catch said slide. And of course, we do that by adding power. Now if the slide's gone past 85*, then we're in too deep and all is for the most part lost - time for plan B, which does not include adding power.

Thanks for posting this!

BEZ06

Mike

Thanks for posting the article.

It's good to know my thoughts coincide with Randy's regarding us track rookies using Active Handling.

I'm getting to the point where, with AH full on, I feel it intruding quite a lot - and I don't think it's because I'm being ragged, I think it's because I'm trying to rotate the car a little faster as I'm learning the capabilities of the car, the tires, and my driving limits.

I've been running in Comp at HPDEs and at NJMP I had a tire pressure sensor problem that popped the AH back to full on, and with it full on I could really feel it activating the brakes and really reducing power when I tried to accelerate out of a couple corners. I reset the tire sensors and was able to run in Comp with no problems in the same corners.

As an HPDE only guy, I don't see that I'll probably ever need to turn it all the way off, except maybe on a skid pad where I'm trying to really find the limits of traction and actually skid or drift the car.

Bob

bb69

I started doing track days in my 69 Vette which lacks any sort of nanny, so I guess I am biased. I would suggest that everyone start out with as many nannies turned off as possible. Yes, it increases your chances of spinning. However, I would embrace that and counter it with more caution.

These electronic systems are not perfect, and they can't change the laws of physics. When you finally overcook it to the point that the stability control system can't save you, a beginning driver sure isn't going to be able to save the car. I would also suggest that many new drivers don't know how often the system is intervening. The whole point of the new system is to be less intrusive and harder to notice. I believe that covers up mistakes and does nothing to break bad habits. Isn't this why so many people say it's great to do a track day in the rain? So you learn to drive smooth at a slower pace? It seems to me like this is the same concept.

Ken

Short-Throw

Chuck,

You bring up a good point and I agree power is needed......in some situations.

I have actually talked to Randy personally in great detail about this very subject recently. I asked, "How do you practice high speed oversteer?" He didn't go on to finish his thought regarding not adding power in this specific article. The very first thing needed to correct any oversteer (as you know and do better than most ) is to correct immediately with the hands. The quicker the hands the less need for throttle. Pobst is so fast that at high speed he corrects and saves the rear before most of any of us would even realize it.

Whenever Pilgrim has driven my car with me riding shotgun (in awe ), every correction he made did not include throttle. He was so fast catching it before it even developed into anything.

These pros are correcting while still maintaining throttle, which is a far cry from most HPDE participants who 'lift' and induce more movement which would require going back to the throttle.

It's too bad they didn't give him a two page spread for more commentary!


Mike

FasterIsBetter

Personally, I think the article said it best -- when it interferes with your driving, turn it off. That's what I've done with the Z06. Almost immediately after I got my first Z06, I found that the AH/TC was interfering with my driving, so I started setting it to competitive mode. After a while of learning the car and pushing it harder, I even found that to interfere from time to time, so now I shut it all off, unless I'm on a track that I'm new to and just learning. Then I rely on competitive mode. Sometimes I forget to hit the button, and fairly quickly the car reminds me what I did, or actually didn't do, when the AH/TC kicks in. A quick touch of the button fixes it.

It never hurts to be careful out there. The safety systems can save you in some situations, but once you are pushing the car closer and closer to its limits, and especially with slicks on, those same systems can get in the way. YMMV, but IMHO, deciding when and when not to turn them off depends largely on your skill, experience, knowledge of the track you are on, road conditions and the like. Never hurts to err in favor of the extra help, unless it is getting in the way of your driving.

0RAAMaudio

I spent 3 great days at Spring Mountain in Jan 08, the last day going all out in C6z's, many sessions, of course we had nanny's on, what mode I never asked. I became faster and faster because I realized I could use them as a learning tool.

I had never driven a modern Vette before that school except in Nov 07 the T1/ST2 in progress C5Z I had bought and was having a tough time driving at my home track, MMP(I had already figured out it had an absolutely terrible setup, no wonder the guy wanted to sell it, could not keep it straight into our out of a corner and he really did not understand setup as paid to have all work done)

Anyway, I have quite a bit of track time, on and off solo events for 30+ years, hundreds of thousands of miles of going way to fast on public roads(something I have up years ago but I never did it in unsafe places, like near other people) and I firmly agree with Randy on all counts except using power as a way out, there is a time and place and best to be quite comfortable with it so good to practice it when and where you can

BUT, I am only a decent driver, not gifted by any means and have a driver lined up for my race car if it is to much for me once I get it finished I will find out. I am may be better than I know, more practice, more schooling, etc, I would love to be fast enough to do all corrections with my hands

Rick

AlwaysInBoost

I read that earlier this week also. Randy always has an interesting bit of advice, its usually the first thing I goto when I get my copy.

When on the street traction contorl in my C5 always stays on, since I'm never driving at the limit on the street it never interfears. However I ALWAYS turn the electrical stuff OFF when I'm on the track. I want to drive the car, not the computer. I want all the feedback the car is giving me but I don't want to develop bad habits.

Like riding the ABS anology he used, the idea is to brake to the point before tires lock up, not go beyond it and rely on ABS to do the work for you. JMHO, YMMV.

Everett Ogilvie

Great article Mike, thanks for posting.

I keep looking for this switch on my car to turn ON the nannies, but I can't find it!

Screamin Z

Very good article. I was up at Road America last weekend with alot of rain. That was about the only time I ran the car with full nannies on.

AU N EGL

Once you get really smooth and consistent, hitting your marks lap after lap, without nannies coming on. Guess what? your lap times start dropping, many times dramatic time drops.

It can be difficult to teach this when guys want to do is mash on the throttle, jam the gears, and toss the car around corner hearing the tires squeal, watching the g-meter. Then Watch their hud or Speedo to see the MAX speed at the end of the straights.

AtomicZ

I started out leaving it on with the stock tires. Then moved to competive mode - which allowed the car to be pushed a little bit more. Then after I felt comfortable with the car and it started to interfer I turned off all the nannies.

I have to agree that these cars are so advanced that by leaving the nannies on is a good way learn the car and to be a smoother driver. Smooth leads to fast.

Bill Dearborn

I encourage my novice students to leave it on. Then as it activates I use the activation to help instruct them on how to go through the corner. I also use it myself to help me understand how I might improve. I know I am not Michael Schumacher so I am pretty sure when it activates it was me that did something wrong and not the car interfering.

When I instructed with Trackmasters a couple of weeks ago I just drove the Z up to the track, put some numbers on it and took it out. Low dust street pads, Firestone WOs and a stock seat and seat belt. As I got used to driving the car that way again I left everything on. Only once did the AH activate and that was when I was throttle steering through the bus stop. Next time around I took a slightly different line, pumped the throttle a little differently and this time the AH did not activate and I went into the Carousel turn somewhat faster as indicated on the HUD. The AH didn't interfere it just told me there was a better way.

I have seen the video on the C6Z forum of the jerk showing how it interfered with his driving and all I can say is if he had been my student he would have been told to proceed to pit lane so we could have a heart to heart about how to drive a car.

Bill

AU N EGL

Good phase Bill

BEZ06

Hi Tom

What you're talking about above (hitting your marks.....your lap times start dropping) is something that is demonstrated to you very clearly when you review your sessions using data gathered by a data-logger such as my Traqmate.

However, I wasn't allowed to use it at NJMP because Roc said the insurance company didn't want any "lap timing".

In addition to telling me about how I'm driving, my data-logger also gets some inputs from stuff about the car that is important to know - oil pressure, coolant temp, throttle position, when I'm applying the brakes, etc., etc., i.e. a whole lot of stuff that I really want to be able to analyze beside "lap timing".

You've got to talk to Roc and come up with something to convice the insurance people that at an "educational" event, data gathered by a data-logger is educational way beyond just giving lap timing.

At NJMP they didn't seem to be worried about taking video - and you can certainly get lap timing from reviewing your video - so what's the matter with a data-logger???

I got my Traqmate so that when driving at an "educational" HPDE I could tell if changes I make work or not. It's a fantastic tool, and I really don't like not being able to use it at an NCM HPDE.

Bob

Datawiz

Good article. Steve Burger and I are at odds all the time as to what's the fastest way around the track in my Z. He prefers old school with everything off. I can race both ways, but to date, my best laps, and wins, have come with Competition Mode turned on.

The debate continues.

Putting that aside, I agree with the article 100%.

Short-Throw

Bob,

The insurance rates are exponential when you bring any timing device into the equation. Also, the NCM events are driving schools, not racing schools. The idea is to teach better car control and lap times are just one way of measurement and although quite fun to see, not a requirement.

No doubt data acq is very helpful. I look at my MoTec all the time. Taking video does not allow immediate lap times as a data logger can. Even if you're not using lap times for analysis, a detected beacon could void the insurance.

Perhaps we can discuss a setup where the data acq unit is not visible to the driver while on track.......to be continued.


Mike